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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 309305 times)
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img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1650 on: 2021-07-26, 15:27:50 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-26, 08:19:38
Itsu,

I think this is HF oscillations inside grenade captured by "shniaga" coils.
If you place one of MOSFET drain signals on same screen, you can confirm it - oscillations will be in the area of BEMF.

Vasik

Below screenshot is in blue the oscillations, in purple the gate and in yellow the drain of MOSFET 1 of the push pull circuit.

Itsu
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1651 on: 2021-07-26, 15:28:18 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-26, 14:10:02
Nick,

the new kacher circuit does not provide for a DC signal, see my last video (screenshot below).
The red circled kacher output signal clearly is AC.

And no, with the old PVC tube secondary and tightly wound primary at 24V i do not see a much higher output, but perhaps i need some higher input voltage.

 
I have seen your "leave the Kacher running" video and i still am amazed by it, so can you still summon this effect?


   Itsu:  Ok, thanks for the correction. I thought that the red DC signal was from your Kacher's output.
   As far as being able to produce the same "leave the Kacher running" effect. Yes, I'm sure that I can. But, the point was to show just how my kacher is tuned to the induction circuit. I use a CT on the induction circuit by the 0.47uf wima cap. I adjust the Kacher to produce the highest output, at the CT, as T-1000 had suggested to me. I use another CT on the ground line, as well. But, the one on the induction circuit works better.

   Seams like the DC kacher/antenna signal is not all that important. But, then again, who knows...

   I have tried to place a diode on the ground line to the kacher transistor emitter, before, but had no luck with that.
Nor do I have much faith in obtaining any usable power from the Earth ground line. I can light a bulb on the ground line when the device is running, like Geo has also shown, but that doesn't mean much. Nor does it mean that there is any additional power coming from the Earth through the ground line, but it is going to the ground, instead. You know when the circuits are tuned, when you disconnect the ground line, and the device stops. Like Geo had shown. But, mine does not do that, and that also depends on how the device is wired.
   You'll know when the device is NOT tuned and not in sync, when you turn the Kacher on, and there is NO improvement at the bulbs. This is with more than a 300w load, otherwise you'll be fooled by the addition of kacher signal. Only when it's tuned will you see any improvement in output with the addition of the Kacher signal. Otherwise, there will be no improvement in the output, at all.
It can sometimes take me days to get the effect back, when I change things. It's that tricky...

   NickZ
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1652 on: 2021-07-26, 15:32:19 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-26, 14:47:01
Itsu,

yes, may be this way it is better ?

Vasik

Vasik,

i have seen that diode there before, but would it work on a MOSFET driven Kacher / TC too.

I will see if i can try that.

Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1653 on: 2021-07-26, 22:38:29 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-25, 17:09:16
Drain diode in place but the TC/Kacher secondary removed.  (secondary slid out of the primary completely)

Notice that the steady states are fluctuating up and down.
I think that the level of the steady state is phase-dependent.

When the MOSFET turns off at random Kacher oscillation phases, it happens at a different instantaneous levels of this oscillation which affects the voltage of the subsequent steady states.

If this is true then this effect can be used to gauge the stability of phase offset between TC/Kacher driver and its natural self-oscillations.

Also, this experiment illustrates that the self-oscillation frequency of the TC/Kacher primary is different from the secondary's self-oscillation frequency.  This might hinder the energy transfer between these two windings.
« Last Edit: 2021-07-27, 11:25:51 by verpies »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1654 on: 2021-07-27, 09:16:29 »

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This steady state fluctuating up and down is there only at the start (when applying of 24V on the primary) and then levels off.

But its not so much seen on the screenshots WITH secondary attached.

Concerning this "phase offset between TC/Kacher driver and its natural self oscillations", so if i could match the (4) pulses of the TC/kacher driver (now set around 1.25MHz) with the natural self oscillations of the  TC/Kacher/antenna (now 1.1MHz), then this steady state fluctuation would disappear?



Also it could be advantages to "match" the primary self resonance frequency (now several MHz) with the TC/Kacher/antenna self resonance frequency (around 1 MHz) by adding some capacitance across the primary coil like mentioned by Vasik earlier.


Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1655 on: 2021-07-27, 11:15:32 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 13:52:09
...and second show what happen when... frequency of pulses in the burst does not match LC frequency.
"Fish with fins" as Sergey calls it :)

@Itsu

Yes. Notice that in Vasik's case there is no diode and the resonant circuit is free to oscillate symmetrically around 0V and that creates the classical "beat frequency" when the two frequencies are mismatched.
However, with the drain diode in place, the resonant circuit voltage "settles" at different levels* after the driven burst ends. This level is phase/frequency dependent.  This creates fluctuating levels of the steady states, when the phases/frequencies are mismatched.  Obviously most mismatches happen at startup.

* The capacitance responsible for storing that voltage level most likely is the capacitance of the scope probe and/or the diode's capacitance and/or MOSFET's CDS.  Maybe you could see this stored voltage droop if you load the scope probe with 1k resistor.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1656 on: 2021-07-27, 11:45:22 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-21, 21:42:13
While monitoring the drain using the yellow probe, i noticed that directly after starting to put 24V on the drain / primary kacher coil, i see way more then 24V on the drain, see screenshot 1

What I would like to see on a scopeshot like this, is how long the E-field of the TC/Kacher's secondary oscillates between bursts (not only between pulses).
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1657 on: 2021-07-27, 11:58:40 »

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The frequency between the pulses seems suboptimal, too.
Notice the pulse amplitude envelope, which I marked with the green line.  The envelope is increasing and later it is decreasing  :(, ...as if a phase between driven pulses' edges and the natural self-oscillation of the resonant circuit, was getting progressively out of synch.

If the phase was not getting progressively out of synch, I would expect an asymptotic pulse amplitude envelope (like the blue line I added).
« Last Edit: 2021-07-27, 13:46:18 by verpies »
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1658 on: 2021-07-27, 13:49:07 »

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There are ~20 people browsing this thread but only 7 have voted.
Please click on the poll at the top of the page,...it is anonymous.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1659 on: 2021-07-27, 15:50:24 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-27, 13:49:07
There are ~20 people browsing this thread but only 7 have voted.
Please click on the poll at the top of the page,...it is anonymous.

May be part of them not registered on this forum and can't cote.
Still, I think, 20 persons interested, so small number :(
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1660 on: 2021-07-27, 16:41:48 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-27, 11:45:22
What I would like to see on a scopeshot like this, is how long the E-field of the TC/Kacher's secondary oscillates between bursts (not only between pulses).

The below screenshot is with the secondary/antenna in place and a tightly wound/spaced primary and with the drain diode inserted.

Yellow the drain signal at startup 24V on the primary/drain, blue the pickup on the top secondary

Itsu
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1661 on: 2021-07-27, 16:50:01 »
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   Vasik:
   And how many people are actually interested enough to read all your translations, and build the device?  Sad, isn't it?  You and Itsu are it...
 But, too many cooks in the kitchen, can also spoil the soup, and distract the focus.
   I'm still interested, and always will be. I think that you'll see plenty of replicators, once one of us hits of it.
And our faith in this, is restored. We don't need to believe in people, we need to believe in the technology, instead.

   Ok, one more thing. Vasik, do you think that the last kacher schematic that you posted can be used and adapted to make my simple 2sc5200 kacher circuit be controlable? Is that the circuit that you built? Or do you think that it's better to take the signal from the TL494, instead? As it seams  that Itsu had an issue with that idea, and is not using it now.  However, it may be something within Itsu's own kacher set up, not allowing for a use able output, and not the circuit schematic itself. As he is now using the separate TC circuit, which still does not provide for adequate output.
   
   NickZ
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1662 on: 2021-07-27, 19:02:38 »

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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-07-27, 16:50:01
You and Itsu are it...
You are unfair to Szaxx and Utopia Now.

Also non-building members such as Partzman and Picowatt are contributing often with useful observations and analyses.  Their non-empirical input is not without a value.
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1663 on: 2021-07-27, 19:13:32 »
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   Verpies:
   Utopia Now came later to this thread, just a short while ago. And had already built the device, when he was happy to have found this forum.  Or not?
I don't know if there is someone else involved. Szaxx I don't know anything about, nor if ever read the translations, watched the videos,  or followed anything that is going on here. If there are others, let them speak for themselves.
   What does fairness have to do with this?
   My point is that many many people have lost faith in this form of FE. As none us after all these years has achieved any positive results, at all.
And that is why there are so few people building this particular device here, now, and elsewhere. Is that also unfair to say?
   I am trying to bring some real causes and reasons for the current lack of replications. And, I do try to be impartial in my posts. So, if I'm wrong, just let me know. I also think that a couple of true builders, is better than a hand full of bozos, or armchair speculators.
Asking people to vote on something that they don't know much about, is like asking the blind to see. What's the point?

    NickZ
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1664 on: 2021-07-27, 19:50:02 »

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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-07-27, 19:13:32
What's the point?
The poll allows them to voice their opinions.
e.g. the results to date indicate that everyone cares  8)
   
img  szaxx
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1665 on: 2021-07-27, 19:57:40 »
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Hi All,
Non inclusion having not posted much is acceptable. I take the unfair comment as a result of this which is fine. I have the grenade constructed and unsure after reading all the thread if the location of the windings is 100%. 2 variants are a tease indeed. The components I have some 1K2 volts FETS may work but I'm in the process of searching my disoriented stock and contemplating obtaining the listed components as this would make sense assuming these are within the functional units.
My background in electronics spreads over many decades and this is a bonus if the operational characteristics are known. With these energy conversion systems we are now entertaining these which fall into new territories where so few have gone before.
I'm behind chronologically I'll admit, I do agree though, Itsu and Verpies are an inspiration and the experiments they perform in an attempt to understand the modus operandi of this device are second to none.
I hope both Nick and I can work in harmony with Itsu and Verpies and crack this nut.
That would be a massive achievement for all.
I'll include anyone else reading with interest who may have abstained from posting so far.
« Last Edit: 2021-07-27, 21:06:41 by szaxx »
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1666 on: 2021-07-27, 22:26:18 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-27, 16:41:48
The below screenshot is with the secondary/antenna in place and a tightly wound/spaced primary and with the drain diode inserted.
Yellow the drain signal at startup 24V on the primary/drain, blue the pickup on the top secondary
Investigate the exact phase of the blue trace at the red vertical lines (immediately before the first yellow pulse of the burst begins).  Most likely that phase is responsible for the variation in the steady states' levels.

This begs for a circuit mod that synchronizes the first pulse of the yellow burst with a certain phase of the blue-oscillation ...but I guess you are not ready to deviate yet.

The amplitude humps, which I marked with green ellipses, need to be investigated further. I think they represent the same phenomena which you observed here when the TC/K's secondary was excited only by the push-pull circuit through the gizmo (not necessarily by the gizmo). 

If the folded coil is treated like a transmission line, I'd expect a lot of impedance discontinuities due to these folds.  Such discontinuities cause reflections, but I think the time periods of such reflections would be much shorter with the wire lengths involved.  If the math disqualifies TL reflections as the cause of these humps, then they become even more interesting.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1667 on: 2021-07-28, 01:47:33 »
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Itsu,

If you have the time, please consider the following:

With the grenade connected only to its tuning cap, and the entire system powered down, connect your scope across the grenade's tuning cap.  Using the scope's FFT mode, and with vertical sensitivity set as necessary, look to see if there is any signal observed at the grenade's tuned resonant frequency. 

If AC line frequency pickup is an issue (ie, clips the scope input before any grenade resonant frequency is observed above the noise floor), wrapping or just covering the grenade in a piece of grounded foil might prove useful.

PW



 
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1668 on: 2021-07-28, 10:36:08 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-27, 22:26:18
Investigate the exact phase of the blue trace at the red vertical lines (immediately before the first yellow pulse of the burst begins).  Most likely that phase is responsible for the variation in the steady states' levels.

This begs for a circuit mod that synchronizes the first pulse of the yellow burst with a certain phase of the blue-oscillation ...but I guess you are not ready to deviate yet.

The amplitude humps, which I marked with green ellipses, need to be investigated further. I think they represent the same phenomena which you observed here when the TC/K's secondary was excited only by the push-pull circuit through the gizmo (not necessarily by the gizmo). 

If the folded coil is treated like a transmission line, I'd expect a lot of impedance discontinuities due to these folds.  Such discontinuities cause reflections, but I think the time periods of such reflections would be much shorter with the wire lengths involved.  If the math disqualifies TL reflections as the cause of these humps, then they become even more interesting.

Itsu,

a suggestion about resonance tuning - you can monitor current in HV coil ground wire,
in resonance it will be 90 degrees shifted in relation to voltage on the other end.

Regards,
Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1669 on: 2021-07-28, 13:04:44 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-27, 22:26:18
Investigate the exact phase of the blue trace at the red vertical lines (immediately before the first yellow pulse of the burst begins).  Most likely that phase is responsible for the variation in the steady states' levels.

This begs for a circuit mod that synchronizes the first pulse of the yellow burst with a certain phase of the blue-oscillation ...but I guess you are not ready to deviate yet.

The amplitude humps, which I marked with green ellipses, need to be investigated further. I think they represent the same phenomena which you observed here when the TC/K's secondary was excited only by the push-pull circuit through the gizmo (not necessarily by the gizmo). 

If the folded coil is treated like a transmission line, I'd expect a lot of impedance discontinuities due to these folds.  Such discontinuities cause reflections, but I think the time periods of such reflections would be much shorter with the wire lengths involved.  If the math disqualifies TL reflections as the cause of these humps, then they become even more interesting.


The below 3 screenshot shows the first 3 steady state signal relations.



The amplitude humps marked with green ellipses are not present right now as they change with tuning of the pulses freqeuncy, their duty cycle, the position of the primary coil compared to the secondary, which secondary (old PVC one or new cardboard one) etc. etc.
I also have made the ferrite gizmo transformer relation more symmetric (5 turn each now when they were 10:5 earlier).

Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1670 on: 2021-07-28, 15:48:47 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-28, 13:04:44
The below 3 screenshot shows the first 3 steady state signal relations.
I drew a red vertical line at the 1st falling edge of the 1st yellow pulse of the burst (at least I hope that is the 1st pulse).
If you look where the red line intercepts the blue oscillation you can see that it it does so at almost the same place in the 3rd and 2nd scopeshot (top-to-bottom, respectively).
However in the 1st scopeshot, that phase is different.  This is can be explained away by the unstable startup conditions and is not a cause for concern.

I expect this phase to deviate further in subsequent cycles because it is impossible to have two free-running oscillators maintain their phase offset indefinitely.
Also, the optimal phase offset to transfer energy from the primary to the secondary is 180º and when the self-oscillation frequencies of these two windings are the same.

Notice, that the signal which I marked in the green ellipse contains at least 2 distinct frequencies. This is after the driving pulses have ceased.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1671 on: 2021-07-28, 15:57:10 »

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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-07-28, 01:47:33
Itsu,

If you have the time, please consider the following:

With the grenade connected only to its tuning cap, and the entire system powered down, connect your scope across the grenade's tuning cap.  Using the scope's FFT mode, and with vertical sensitivity set as necessary, look to see if there is any signal observed at the grenade's tuned resonant frequency. 

If AC line frequency pickup is an issue (ie, clips the scope input before any grenade resonant frequency is observed above the noise floor), wrapping or just covering the grenade in a piece of grounded foil might prove useful.

PW

PW,

do i understand correctly that you want me to measure the FFT signals across the series capacitor like in the situation shown below?


Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1672 on: 2021-07-28, 16:07:09 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-28, 15:48:47
I drew a red vertical line at the 1st falling edge of the 1st yellow pulse of the burst (at least I hope that is the 1st pulse).
If you look where the red line intercepts the blue oscillation you can see that it it does so at almost the same place in the 3rd and 2nd scopeshot (top-to-bottom, respectively).
However in the 1st scopeshot, that phase is different.  This is can be explained away by the unstable startup conditions and is not a cause for concern.

I expect this phase to deviate further in subsequent cycles because it is impossible to have two free-running oscillators maintain their phase offset indefinitely.
Also, the optimal phase offset to transfer energy from the primary to the secondary is 180º and when the self-oscillation frequencies of these two windings are the same.

Notice, that the signal which I marked in the green ellipse contains at least 2 distinct frequencies. This is after the driving pulses have ceased.


And with "two free-running oscillators" you mean the (4) pulses repetition frequency and the self resonance frequency of the kacher secondary/antenna?

I can tune the (4) pulses repetition frequency somewhat, so i can try to match them.

Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1673 on: 2021-07-28, 16:13:00 »

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Also, notice that the 4 vertical purple lines at the bottom of the composite scopeshot, which represent the frequency of the secondary's* self-oscillations when it is not being driven, DO NOT line up with the yellow pulses (the frequency of these pulses is too high).



* and all its accessories like the gizmo and antenna.
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1674 on: 2021-07-28, 16:32:04 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-28, 16:07:09
And with "two free-running oscillators" you mean the (4) pulses repetition frequency and the self resonance frequency of the kacher secondary/antenna?
Yes.
IMO for the optimal pri→sec energy stransfer, the frequency of the pulses in the burst should be synchronized to the frequency at which the TC/K secondary* wants to oscillate naturally ("naturally"=not forcefully driven).

* and all its accessories like the gizmo and antenna.
   
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