Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench

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Vasik041

Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1550 on: 2021-07-22, 13:12:56 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-22, 12:53:57

Still restraining myself but I couldn't let this one go.

Hmm interesting

Quote

I see 5V average DC level. Is that higher than the V_CC ?

What you call Vcc in this context ? My example illustrating abstract idea of the transients, not directly attempting simulate Itsu's circuit.

Vasik

verpies

Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1551 on: 2021-07-22, 13:14:37 »

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Posts: 3680

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 13:12:56

What you call Vcc in this context ?

It is the high level of the step stimulus that stimulates the underdamped LCR transient.
In Itsu's case that would be the 24VDC.

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 13:12:56

My example illustrating abstract idea of the transients, not directly attempting simulate Itsu's circuit.

I know.
Perhaps the inclusion of the effect of the diodes (incl. MOSFET's body diode) would illustrate the upward ratcheting of the DC levels of steady states, which occur between pulse bursts.

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Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench

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Vasik041	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1552 on: 2021-07-22, 13:52:09 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-22, 13:14:37 It is the high level of the step stimulus that stimulates the underdamped LCR transient. In Itsu's case that would be the 24VDC. I know. Perhaps the inclusion of the effect of the diodes (incl. MOSFET's body diode) would illustrate the ratcheting of the average DC level. I don't think that diode effect is interesting in this context. Just two more pictures about transients. First show what happen when we use short pulse burst. I guess everyone saw it already on the scope. And second show what happen when... frequency of pulses in the burst does not match LC frequency. "Fish with fins" as Sergey call it Vasik ------------------------ Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench 2_stop.png (43.35 kB, 1582x750 - viewed 353 times.) Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench 3.png (47.47 kB, 1584x777 - viewed 1021 times.)

verpies	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1553 on: 2021-07-22, 14:11:58 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3680	Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 13:52:09 First show what happen when we use short pulse burst. I guess everyone saw it already on the scope. Do the levels of the steady states between the pulse bursts increase above V_CC like in Itsu's scopeshot ? Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 13:52:09 And second show what happen when... frequency of pulses in the burst does not match LC frequency. I agree the the frequency of pulses in the bursts greatly affects the builup of the AC oscillations' amplitude and even creates a beat effect when it deviates from the SRF. In other words, I agree with your assessment of the AC behavior but the jury is still out on DC levels of the steady states, which occur between bursts. In Itsu's scopeshot he marks the levels of 3 initial steady states with 90V, 120V, 150V. I think Utopia's scopesot shows something similar, too.

Vasik041	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1554 on: 2021-07-22, 14:27:12 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-22, 14:11:58 In other words, I agree with your assessment of the AC behavior but the jury is still out on DC levels of the steady states, which occur between bursts. In Itsu's scopeshot he marks these steady state levels with 90V, 120V, 150V. I think that this DC is a MOSFET capacitance charged thru diode. My simulation not taking into account this effect. Vasik

verpies	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1555 on: 2021-07-22, 14:30:39 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3680	Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-22, 14:27:12 I think that this DC is a MOSFET capacitance charged thru diode. Why doesn't this capacitance get discharged when the MOSFET shorts its drain and source ?

Vasik041	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1556 on: 2021-07-22, 14:41:42 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-22, 14:30:39 Why doesn't this capacitance get discharged when the MOSFET shorts its drain and source ? It is not very well visible on the Itsu's picture, but vertical lines going down below that DC levels suggest that it actually get discharged. Perhaps Itsu can take a larger scale (horizontally) snapshot ? Vasik

Itsu

Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1557 on: 2021-07-22, 16:56:24 »

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Posts: 4236

Not sure this is what you mean by "larger scale (horizontally) snapshot", but this is one of the first burst of pulses after attaching 24V to the primary kacher coil (single shot).

We see the 3 first pulses (out of 5) and after each pulse we see a steady increase in steady state amplitude/ringing and after all 5 pulses we see an increased steady state (90, 120, 150V).

By the way, the ringing peaks between the pulses are 88ns meaning a frequency of 11.3MHz pointing to the resonance frequency of the primary kacher coil i guess.

Itsu

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Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench

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Vasik041	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1558 on: 2021-07-22, 17:17:12 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-22, 16:56:24 Not sure this is what you mean by "larger scale (horizontally) snapshot", but this is one of the first burst of pulses after attaching 24V to the primary kacher coil (single shot). We see the 3 first pulses (out of 5) and after each pulse we see a steady increase in steady state amplitude/ringing and after all 5 pulses we see an increased steady state (90, 120, 150V). By the way, the ringing peaks between the pulses are 88ns meaning a frequency of 11.3MHz pointing to the resonance frequency of the primary kacher coil i guess. Itsu Yes, that is what I mean, thank you Itsu

verpies	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1559 on: 2021-07-22, 19:15:22 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3680	Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-22, 16:56:24 We see the 3 first pulses (out of 5) and after each pulse we see a steady increase in steady state amplitude/ringing and after all 5 pulses we see an increased steady state (90, 120, 150V). Please zoom it so the 3 steady states, which occur after the bursts of 5 pulses are in view. No more than 3 s.s., please.

partzman

Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1560 on: 2021-07-22, 19:24:00 »

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Posts: 1862

Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-21, 21:42:13

I was testing the new pulsed MOSFET kacher with 24V on the primary kacher coil / drain.

While monitoring the drain using the yellow probe, i noticed that directly after starting to put 24V on the drain / primary kacher coil, i see way more then 24V on the drain, see screenshot 1

It shows that withing a few cycles the drain / prim. kacher coil voltage raised from 90 to 120 to 150V.

Screenshot 2 shows an expanded view of one of the drain / prim coil pulses and also there we see the drain voltage go from 150V to zero.

Where does this voltage come from?

I used a cmc and some ceramic / electrolytic caps in the 24V supply line to the prim. kacher coil.

The diagram below shows the general setup including some component modifications.

Itsu

So, the 24v power supply is connected to the circuit through the CMC? If so, the power supply is floating from the grounded circuit at the operating frequency due to the inductance of the CMC.

You can check to see if this is creating the voltage rise on the drain by individually measuring the negative and positive terminals of the 24v supply with the scope ground placed on the circuit ground.

Regards,
Pm

Itsu	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1561 on: 2021-07-22, 19:44:18 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-22, 19:15:22 Please zoom it so the 3 steady states, which occur after the bursts of 5 pulses are in view. No more than 3 s.s., please. Something like this: Itsu ------------------------ Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench 3x steady states small.png (497.33 kB, 653x490 - viewed 666 times.)

Itsu	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1562 on: 2021-07-22, 19:53:28 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	Quote from: partzman on 2021-07-22, 19:24:00 So, the 24v power supply is connected to the circuit through the CMC? If so, the power supply is floating from the grounded circuit at the operating frequency due to the inductance of the CMC. You can check to see if this is creating the voltage rise on the drain by individually measuring the negative and positive terminals of the 24v supply with the scope ground placed on the circuit ground. Regards, Pm PM, Quote So, the 24v power supply is connected to the circuit through the CMC? Yes. So you mean like in the below diagram, the CMC will cause the 24V to be floating compared to the negative (-) of the rest of the circuit? Even though the negatives are connected see blue in diagram? Itsu ------------------------ Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench CMC effect.png (454.15 kB, 1384x990 - viewed 222 times.)

Itsu	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1563 on: 2021-07-22, 21:11:18 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	I have bypassed the CMC negative side so its now a direct link. I have installed a KE440CA TVS across the drain source. Still i have the floating steady state see below screenshot leveling off around 140V. The peaks seem to have lowered to about 600Vpp itsu ------------------------ Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench cmc negative bypassed 440V tvs small.png (521.62 kB, 653x490 - viewed 211 times.)

verpies	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1564 on: 2021-07-22, 21:16:47 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3680	Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-22, 19:44:18 Something like this: Yes. That clearly shows that the steady states (after the oscillations stop) get ratcheted up above the V_CC. Assuming that this represents some capacitance getting charged up during the bursts, I do not see any signs of this capacitance getting discharged between bursts (the trace between them has no downward slope). Could these be the PS filter capacitances after the CMC getting charged up ...or some other one ?

Itsu	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1565 on: 2021-07-22, 21:26:03 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	I have 24V coming from the main PS, a ceramic 0.1uF cap, then the CMC (negative side bypassed now) then again a 0.1uF ceramic cap and finally a 100uF 400V electrolytic capacitor before the +24V goes to the primary kacher coil. So could it be the electrolytic capacitor being pumped up? Itsu

verpies	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1566 on: 2021-07-22, 21:30:33 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3680	Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-22, 21:26:03 So could it be the electrolytic capacitor being pumped up? Check it out. Stick a voltmeter on it.

Utopia Now

Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1567 on: 2021-07-22, 21:33:17 »

Newbie

Posts: 17

At 100V supply, 0,25A i have the following scope screen pictures and about 7,5mm streamer to a screwdriver i have in my hand.
The blank copper end from the antenna is about 1,6cm long.

I have a question what is the procedure of tuning grenade and inductor, I know its somewher in the 63 pages but don`t recall any more where precise .. I also want to tune resonance frequency of both.

Purple trace is signal from gate Mosfet

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verpies	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1568 on: 2021-07-23, 01:08:47 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3680	Quote from: Utopia Now link=topic=3926.msg937 I have a question what is the procedure of tuning grenade and inductor, I know its somewher in the 63 pages but don`t recall any more where precise . Perhaps this will be of help.

Vasik041	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1569 on: 2021-07-23, 05:50:31 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-23, 01:08:47 Perhaps this will be of help. Utopia Now, Some more information about gradient coil in rk_rev3.pdf on page 44 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4154.msg93064#msg93064) and here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4154.msg93070#msg93070 What winding style you used for it ? Vasik

Vasik041	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1570 on: 2021-07-23, 05:59:17 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Utopia Now on 2021-07-22, 21:33:17 At 100V supply, 0,25A i have the following scope screen pictures and about 7,5mm streamer to a screwdriver i have in my hand. The blank copper end from the antenna is about 1,6cm long. I have a question what is the procedure of tuning grenade and inductor, I know its somewher in the 63 pages but don`t recall any more where precise .. I also want to tune resonance frequency of both. Purple trace is signal from gate Mosfet Just one thing from your previous scope traces, you have Tesla coil working on both half periods of push pull. I think you need switch one off, so it will look more like this https://youtu.be/Z-UaulS9EUA?list=PLK7gxeQv5qT44ZM5TVnBW534ogPJnrXjg&t=80 Vasik ------------------------ s_tuning.pdf (28.3 kB - downloaded 94 times.)

partzman	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1571 on: 2021-07-23, 15:10:44 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1862	Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-22, 19:53:28 PM, Yes. So you mean like in the below diagram, the CMC will cause the 24V to be floating compared to the negative (-) of the rest of the circuit? Even though the negatives are connected see blue in diagram? Itsu OK, what might be interesting to know now is what direction the current flows into and out of the 47ufd-400v 'lytic! With the negative side of the CMC shorted, which direction does the current flow on the 24v power supply side of this cap? Hopefully this measurement is convenient! Pm

Itsu	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1572 on: 2021-07-23, 15:16:56 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-22, 21:30:33 Check it out. Stick a voltmeter on it. Used my Fluke DMM on Vdc to check out the voltages on severall points at the MOSFET +24V line. Below diagram shows with big red dots where i measured 24V compared to the big blue dot. The big purple dot shows where i measured more (208V), so between the diode (12R06DI) and the drain of the IRFP460 MOSFET. Itsu ------------------------ Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench Tesla coil control board mods voltmeter measurtements.png (472 kB, 1360x993 - viewed 347 times.)

Itsu	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1573 on: 2021-07-23, 15:32:17 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	Quote from: partzman on 2021-07-23, 15:10:44 OK, what might be interesting to know now is what direction the current flows into and out of the 47ufd-400v 'lytic! With the negative side of the CMC shorted, which direction does the current flow on the 24v power supply side of this cap? Hopefully this measurement is convenient! Pm PM, thanks for the reply, but as i have tightly build up this Kacher MOSFET drive board its hard to measure any current direction as you suggested. Presently i made some new Voltmeter measurements, see my former post and diagram. Do you still think your suggested current measurements are useful? By the way, the 'lytic' i use is a 100uF 400V, and the CMC negative side is presently OPEN, not shorted. Itsu

NickZ	Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1574 on: 2021-07-23, 16:02:07 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-23, 05:59:17 Just one thing from your previous scope traces, you have Tesla coil working on both half periods of push pull. I think you need switch one off, so it will look more like this https://youtu.be/Z-UaulS9EUA?list=PLK7gxeQv5qT44ZM5TVnBW534ogPJnrXjg&t=80 Vasik Vasik: I have uploaded this image of Stalker's signal. But, you said that the image was not from Cepren (Stalker). However, it is from Stalker, and it is showing what his kacher circuit scope signal looks like. Yet, we have no idea what his devise's output, can actually do. And, if this is really the right signal that we (Itsu, you, I, and others) should follow. When it comes to self running, that is. That is why I am waiting for someone to verify the self running output, before trying to continue to replicate the controlable Kacher circuit. As I don't have any electronics parts houses, nearby. Nor do I want to just keep buying more and more parts to just experiment with. As I want to build a self runner, not a useless device, nor to follow useless unverified schematics that don't work. Which has been the case, up to now... NickZ ------------------------ Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench Stalker's scope shot.jpg (374.56 kB, 1200x675 - viewed 327 times.)