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OverUnity Research > Benches > AlienGrey > Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench
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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 309518 times)
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img  szaxx
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1450 on: 2021-07-10, 17:02:53 »
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Hi all,
I've started winding the kacher with available parts and the tube is little oversized. Probably 2 inch so I'll make adjustments to the turns number using the wire length as a guide. Hopefully it's OK and will suffice. Not finished it yet and will do so as time permits. I'm using 2.5 cable so if a working model results from this endeavour the power will be useable. Early days...
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1451 on: 2021-07-10, 17:21:31 »
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Quote from: szaxx on 2021-07-10, 17:02:53
Hi all,
I've started winding the kacher with available parts and the tube is little oversized. Probably 2 inch so I'll make adjustments to the turns number using the wire length as a guide. Hopefully it's OK and will suffice. Not finished it yet and will do so as time permits. I'm using 2.5 cable so if a working model results from this endeavour the power will be useable. Early days...

Hi szaxx,

You are making kacher with 2.5 mm wire ? Perhaps you mean gradient coil ?

Vasik
   
img  szaxx
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1452 on: 2021-07-10, 19:37:07 »
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Most likely, it's the grenade looking one. There's a lot of differing names given to each part and it does get a little confusing at times. The various winding arrangements are another too.
I'll build this one first and run some tests to see how it responds to the text.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1453 on: 2021-07-10, 19:40:49 »
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Quote from: szaxx on 2021-07-10, 19:37:07
Most likely, it's the grenade looking one. There's a lot of differing names given to each part and it does get a little confusing at times. The various winding arrangements are another too.
I'll build this one first and run some tests to see how it responds to the text.

szaxx,

I made coils name and numbering guide here
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4154.msg93516#msg93516
I hope it will help call things same way.

Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1454 on: 2021-07-10, 21:13:08 »

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Tuning done on 24.4KHz resonance for both connected Inductor L4 and Grenade L5.

Started with tuning Inductor L4 only first on 24.4KHz resonance using 600nF caps.
Then tuning Grenade L5 only on 24.4Khz resonance using 232nF caps.

Connecting both up with these caps shows a decreased resonance of 21Khz.

Starting proportional decrease of the caps in severall steps finally resulted in a 28.7% decrease of capacitance on each cap, so 428nF on Inductor L4 and 164nF on Grenade L5 to reach a combined connected resonance at 24.4KHz.

With no kacher running, i have 24V @ 2.7A input and 166V @ 91mA dc (15W) output using a 25W bulb.

Duty cycle push pull is 26%

Itsu
   
img  szaxx
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1455 on: 2021-07-10, 21:32:40 »
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Thank you Vasik, this has made things easier to follow. The tesla is the easy part to build, once I know the frequency of the grenade assembly and read on the harmonic relationship, one can be constructed to the correct power level. A gate switching arrangement in the design if necessary will be added. The push pull is also easy and again the frequency will be determined once I'm familiar with the harmonic relationship.
I'm looking forwards to a completed project and will join in more with the group replicating.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1456 on: 2021-07-11, 12:46:23 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-10, 21:13:08
Tuning done on 24.4KHz resonance for both connected Inductor L4 and Grenade L5.

Started with tuning Inductor L4 only first on 24.4KHz resonance using 600nF caps.
Then tuning Grenade L5 only on 24.4Khz resonance using 232nF caps.

Connecting both up with these caps shows a decreased resonance of 21Khz.

Starting proportional decrease of the caps in severall steps finally resulted in a 28.7% decrease of capacitance on each cap, so 428nF on Inductor L4 and 164nF on Grenade L5 to reach a combined connected resonance at 24.4KHz.

With no kacher running, i have 24V @ 2.7A input and 166V @ 91mA dc (15W) output using a 25W bulb.

Duty cycle push pull is 26%

Itsu,

It is good that tuning method works.
If it ok for you may be you can document voltage and current waveforms in inductor and grenade.
Also it is interesting to know what is push pull phase relation to grenade current, is it suitable for tesla coil or some extra tuning needed?
Could you also confirm L2 L3 L4 L5 "polarities" ? are they correct on Sergey's diagram?

Thanks,
Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1457 on: 2021-07-11, 17:07:16 »

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Vasik,

i will try to get the "voltage and current waveforms in inductor and grenade", have to see if i need to use the differential probing method or use a single probe on the  circuit across the Grenade / inductor.

Below screenshot is the "push pull phase relation to grenade current" as:
blue is   one TL494 output,
yellow is MOSFET 1 drain output
purple is TC pulse at IR2113 pin 12
green is  Grenade current.   

Not sure what you mean with "confirm L2 L3 L4 L5 "polarities" ? are they correct on Sergey's diagram?"  what diagram are you referring to?


Itsu
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1458 on: 2021-07-11, 17:43:02 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-11, 17:07:16
Not sure what you mean with "confirm L2 L3 L4 L5 "polarities" ? are they correct on Sergey's diagram?"  what diagram are you referring to?

Itsu,

Thanks for the scope traces, I think they are ok, so you can try enabling Tesla/kacher if you like.
Perhaps you need increase a little grenade capacitor to move current a little right.
I mean this diagram (attached) and polarities - coils starts/ends or hot/cold wires.

Vasik
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1459 on: 2021-07-11, 18:24:59 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-11, 17:43:02
Itsu,

Thanks for the scope traces, I think they are ok, so you can try enabling Tesla/kacher if you like.
Perhaps you need increase a little grenade capacitor to move current a little right.
I mean this diagram (attached) and polarities - coils starts/ends or hot/cold wires.

Vasik

Vasik,

From the "tuning checklist":

Quote
Push pull:

18.1 KHz (90.8/5, 90.8Khz is sub harmonic of 900K and 4.6Mhz)
duty cycle 25-40%
core close to saturation, primary inductance 110uH
2x 8-10/ 25/ 3-5 turns
primary ends on gaps (=spread across all length of half core)
LC resonance 90.8Khz, 200-300v on inductor
power consumption: 24v 3a idle, drops to 1a with Tesla on and under load

Gradient coil:

47m 180uH
inductor 12m 90uH
½ wave resonance 900K (amp. increase with interference, no freq. change)
wave resonance 4.6M
resonance on 18.1KHz Clc=0.03uF Cgc=0.35uF
current approx. 20-30 degree ahead of LC current


Instead of L4 and L5 being tuned to the same frequency, it seems that in the example above, L4 is being resonated at 90.8KHz and L5 at 18.1KHz.  The quoted 180uHy/0.35uF and 90uHy/0.03uF seems to confirm this (calculated resonance with those LC figures is 20.05KHz and 96.8KHz).

Itsu appears to be tuning L4 and L5 to same frequency.

What am I missing?

PW
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1460 on: 2021-07-11, 19:24:36 »
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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-07-11, 18:24:59
From the "tuning checklist":
Instead of L4 and L5 being tuned to the same frequency, it seems that in the example above, L4 is being resonated at 90.8KHz and L5 at 18.1KHz.  The quoted 180uHy/0.35uF and 90uHy/0.03uF seems to confirm this (calculated resonance with those LC figures is 20.05KHz and 96.8KHz).
Itsu appears to be tuning L4 and L5 to same frequency.
What am I missing?

PW,

yes, you are correct, Itsu tuning to one frequency, while Sergey seems to be recommending tuning
inductor circuit to odd push pull harmonic 3x or 5x.
BTW 1x also can be considered as odd harmonic :)

There is no detailed information available what tuning is correct.
3x or 5x frequency reduce influence of load on inductor circuit, but it makes also resonance there weaker.
I guess we need research this subject ourselves experimentally.

Vasik
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1461 on: 2021-07-11, 19:44:46 »
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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-07-11, 18:24:59
Vasik,

From the "tuning checklist":


Instead of L4 and L5 being tuned to the same frequency, it seems that in the example above, L4 is being resonated at 90.8KHz and L5 at 18.1KHz.  The quoted 180uHy/0.35uF and 90uHy/0.03uF seems to confirm this.

Itsu appears to be tuning L4 and L5 to same frequency.

What am I missing?




   PW:
   Probably the same thing as I'm missing. That the schematics and diagrams are all different. And hard to know which ones actually work.
As well as the tuning tips are different. The new catalog of tips that Vasik has posted, are for a different device, than what I have. So, I guess it is a trial and error situation, to know what is valid, and what's not. Which is what Itsu and Vasik have had to do, up to now, and why thing are different than what is found in some of the transcripts. As there are many different ways to be tried. And I have mentioned, that what may work in one area may not work in another area. And that geolocation tuning may be the ultimate trick to getting this to work, in your area.

    On the other hand, I have the Ruslan push/pull yoke/grenade set up, like the one in the attachment, below. Pretty much built the same way as in the diagram.
    I'm using a 37.5 meter grenade coil, and the 18.75 meter inductor. So, it's not the same as 45m grenade coil as in the tuning check list.
My yoke windings are 12t and 12t primary, 28t, and 3t yoke secondary coils, and the 4 inch yoke once wound.
However, even with my different set up, and with a large non Ruslan type of yoke, I still have resonance at around 18 to 19KHz.  Odd, I think.
And so, it all makes me wonder why Stalker takes the Ruslan schematics, made by Oleg, like the one below, and converts it over to another way of doing things. Why??? And then does not show it self running. I'll bet it was because when he built the original diagram, below, did not work for him either.
  What am I missing?  A real working device...
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1462 on: 2021-07-11, 20:10:07 »
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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-07-11, 19:44:46

 And then does not show it self running. I'll bet it was because when he built the original diagram, below, did not work for him either.
  What am I missing?  A real working device...

One question Sergey answered very clear: presenting OU device publicly creates a lot of trouble. No reasonable person would do it.

Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1463 on: 2021-07-11, 20:15:59 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-11, 17:43:02
Itsu,

Thanks for the scope traces, I think they are ok, so you can try enabling Tesla/kacher if you like.
Perhaps you need increase a little grenade capacitor to move current a little right.
I mean this diagram (attached) and polarities - coils starts/ends or hot/cold wires.

Vasik

Vasik,

ok,  i got you.

Below i have the Grenade L5 voltage (yellow) and current (green) see screenshot 1 and Inductor L4 voltage (yellow) and current (green) see screenshot 2.

Concerning "polarities - coils starts/ends or hot/cold wires",   yes they are as in your diagram.

Itsu
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1464 on: 2021-07-11, 20:18:08 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-11, 20:10:07
One question Sergey answered very clear: presenting OU device publicly creates a lot of trouble. No reasonable person would do it.

Vasik


   What is very clear is that we don't know which version of which device of the many built, actually works.
I trust Stalker more than any other builder. But, as you can see, there are many versions.  They all work??? If so, why change to the different specs.
   Any way, we'll soon see. I hope.
   Good luck to you Vasik.

   NickZ
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1465 on: 2021-07-11, 20:23:52 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-11, 20:15:59
Vasik,
ok,  i got you.
Below i have the Grenade L5 voltage (yellow) and current (green) see screenshot 1 and Inductor L4 voltage (yellow) and current (green) see screenshot 2.
Concerning "polarities - coils starts/ends or hot/cold wires",   yes they are as in your diagram.

Thanks Itsu!  O0
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1466 on: 2021-07-11, 20:46:36 »

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Checking the single probing (one probe/ground only on circuit) against the differential probing method (no ground) shows no difference in signals see screenshot.

White is the former yellow single probe signal, red the differential probing result, they ovelay perfectly, green still Inductor L4 current.

Itsu
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1467 on: 2021-07-11, 23:44:48 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-11, 20:15:59
Vasik,

ok,  i got you.

Below i have the Grenade L5 voltage (yellow) and current (green) see screenshot 1 and Inductor L4 voltage (yellow) and current (green) see screenshot 2.

Concerning "polarities - coils starts/ends or hot/cold wires",   yes they are as in your diagram.

Itsu

Itsu,

I am curious about where the harmonics seen on the grenade current waveform are coming from.  That is, whether they are from excitation of the unique windings of the grenade or moreso just from non-linearities on the load side.

Consider the following tests:

First, with everything in its current state, scope the grenade current and capture both the grenade current waveform and an FFT of the grenade current.

Second, disconnect the bridge rectifier and connect a linear load across the output choke and again scope the grenade current and capture both the grenade current waveform and an FFT of the grenade current.

For a linear load, any combination of series/parallel resistors can be used that approximate your lamp load (i.e., 1500-2000 ohms at 10-15 watts). 

How's your hand?  Don't mess around with it.  Years ago I had a cat bite turn my left hand into something resembling a football.

Take care,
PW
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1468 on: 2021-07-12, 05:18:35 »
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   Guys:
   I made a mistake, concerning posting my opinion of a member from OU.com. Who was quoted here, as to knowing what is missing in these devices.
 My apologies for bringing his name up here, which I won't repeat again. Some of you may know who I am referring to, so enough said.
  My apologies to him, as well. And, I will never refer to him again.
   
   NickZ
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1469 on: 2021-07-12, 10:17:00 »

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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-07-11, 23:44:48
Itsu,

I am curious about where the harmonics seen on the grenade current waveform are coming from.  That is, whether they are from excitation of the unique windings of the grenade or moreso just from non-linearities on the load side.

Consider the following tests:

First, with everything in its current state, scope the grenade current and capture both the grenade current waveform and an FFT of the grenade current.

Second, disconnect the bridge rectifier and connect a linear load across the output choke and again scope the grenade current and capture both the grenade current waveform and an FFT of the grenade current.

For a linear load, any combination of series/parallel resistors can be used that approximate your lamp load (i.e., 1500-2000 ohms at 10-15 watts). 

How's your hand?  Don't mess around with it.  Years ago I had a cat bite turn my left hand into something resembling a football.

Take care,
PW

Hi PW,

you mean those signals as highlighted in the below screenshot.

Yes, seems there are 3 sine wave components.


I will try your test later today.


Concerning my hand, yes thats what it looked like; a football.
Luckily the antibiotics kicked in in the weekend and it starts to almost look like a normal hand again.

Itsu
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1470 on: 2021-07-12, 13:02:45 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-12, 10:17:00
Hi PW,

you mean those signals as highlighted in the below screenshot.

Yes, seems there are 3 sine wave components.


I will try your test later today.


Itsu,

Looks like there are some higher frequency components as well.  Please approach these tests cautiously, without the bridge and DC filter cap, different resistive loading may be required to keep the voltage down to similar/measureable levels without harming your equipment.  I am mainly interested in the current waveform/spectrum.  Just watch out for excessive voltage.

Quote
Concerning my hand, yes thats what it looked like; a football.
Luckily the antibiotics kicked in in the weekend and it starts to almost look like a normal hand again.

Itsu

Glad to hear your hand is returning to normal...

PW
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1471 on: 2021-07-12, 14:41:40 »
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   Vasik:
   Thanks for the back up.  I guess now you know why I left the OU forum...

   PW:  I still don't know why one would want to change the AC output of the generator, by installing the full bridge and filter caps. As the feed back circuit is all going into a AC type of PS. I've heard that it's suppose to raise the voltage. But, if it's actually needed, I don't know. As I have not tried to feed back the output to the input, without the full bridge. I still can't make heads or tails of any of this.
   On another note, those peaks on Itsu's rig, the yellow ones, may be what is needed, yet it's good to know what causes them to look like that, as mine are not so spikey. He is getting similar voltages, as I get, now.  But, I don't see why he highlighted the other red and blue current type signals, when I don't see any, except the green one, originally. Or, what am I missing?

    Itsu:  Is the new Kacher that you are working on producing sharp DC pulses, instead of the AC pulses? 
Is that the same or a similar circuit to the kacher you built previously, a few years back, or not?

    NickZ
« Last Edit: 2021-07-12, 16:12:49 by NickZ »
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1472 on: 2021-07-12, 15:14:09 »
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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-07-12, 14:41:40
   Vasik:
   Thanks for the back up.  I guess now you know why I left the OU forum...

I think is not very good copy-paste information form one forum to another, change it and do not say where it comes from. It creates lot's of confusion. Hopefully not on purpose.
This was one of the reasons why decided made normal translation etc.

Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1473 on: 2021-07-12, 15:19:59 »
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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-07-12, 13:02:45
Looks like there are some higher frequency components as well.

PW,

Isn't it obvious that these peaks are BEMF from yoke ? Or do you mean something else ?

Vasik
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1474 on: 2021-07-12, 15:28:35 »
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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-07-12, 14:41:40
 
   PW:  I still don't know why one would want to change the AC output of the generator, by installing the full bridge and filter caps. As the feed back circuit is all going into a AC type of PS. I've heard that it's suppose to raise the voltage. But, if it's actually needed, I don't know. As I have not tried to feed back the output to the input, without the full bridge.
   On another note, those peaks on Itsu's rig, the yellow ones, may be what is needed, yet it's good to know what causes them to look like that, also.  But, I don't get why he highlighted the other red and blue signals, when I don't see any, except the green one, originally. Am I missing something?
    NickZ

NickZ,

I wasn't so much interested in the voltage waveforms (yellow trace) as I was the harmonics seen in the current waveforms  Itsu marked the first few harmonics on that waveform and we see a few more.

I am interested in whether or not the observed harmonics are indeed due to excitation of multiple wavelengths as per the unique windings of the grenade, or harmonics created due to the non-linear loads presented by the bridge rectifier, DC filter cap, and non-linear lamp filament.

PW
   
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