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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 309437 times)
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img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1350 on: 2021-07-02, 06:23:54 »
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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-07-01, 22:25:13
Vasik,
I could not find your translation of this video in your documentation thread.
Perhaps I have overlooked it.  Could you please direct me to the translation?
PW

PW,

This video consists of many short videos glued together. It appeared that I translated only first fragment (which I actually wanted to show).
Translation (attached) not in documentation thread because it's Alexeev's materials.
I will translate fragment with kacher on/off later today.

Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1351 on: 2021-07-02, 06:27:48 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 06:23:54
PW,

This video consists of many short videos glued together. It appeared that I translated only first fragment (which I actually wanted to show).
Translation (attached) not in documentation thread because it's Alexeev's materials.
I will translate fragment with kacher on/off later today.

Vasik

Thanks Vasik...

I have seen and read all the material in your document thread...

Greatly appreciated,
PW
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1352 on: 2021-07-02, 06:31:56 »
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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-07-02, 04:33:04
I agree with Vasik, it is time to try tuning while he is available...
PW

I can't say that I like how discussion going here, but yes, I am still available.

From my point of view there is very little value in theorizing how thing works until it is actually works  >:-)
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1353 on: 2021-07-02, 08:59:43 »

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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-07-02, 03:13:41
Itsu,

When you were looking for phase shifts, which did not appear, roughly, what was the phase relationship between the two loops?

PW

They are practically zero or 180° depending on how i put the current probe or current transformer around the wires.

Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1354 on: 2021-07-02, 09:11:07 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 06:23:54
PW,

This video consists of many short videos glued together. It appeared that I translated only first fragment (which I actually wanted to show).
Translation (attached) not in documentation thread because it's Alexeev's materials.
I will translate fragment with kacher on/off later today.

Vasik

Vasik,


thanks again for the translation  / pdf.


First thing that strikes me is the blue collector voltage shown which is far more cleaner and regular then mine.
I don't think the elaborate circuit with the 3 MOSFETs is used, so it could be the problem i have.

Is there a circuit available of the used Kacher driver in this video which i can build to compare?


Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1355 on: 2021-07-02, 09:23:27 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-01, 10:06:51
After Itsu's experiments, does anyone here have any doubts that the Yoke's material is subjected to MHz E-field and H-fields powered by the Kacher (indirectly or directly) ?

It does show we have MHz E-field and H-fields, but if it the cause of any power generating effect i don't know.

I still think the earth wire is the primary cause for generating/supplying power somehow.


Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1356 on: 2021-07-02, 09:56:03 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 06:31:56
From my point of view there is very little value in theorizing how thing works until it is actually works  >:-)
I only asked a question about any doubts regarding my conclusions about the E & H fields that the yoke is subjected to.
Only Picowatt wrote a valid doubt, making and alternative proposition that the PP is the source of the energy for the E-field between L2 and L3 - not the Kacher alone.

I did not ask what is the response of the ferrite to these E & H fields.  I asked you (plural) to consider that there could be an unexpected response.

  • I am not proposing changing the tuning motions that you had translated. By all means go ahead and do all that.
  • I am not proposing changes to the circuit at this time.
  • I am not leading Itsu and other builders to use different components.

However anyone (including you) you that does not insist that the ferrite material is exactly the same as the author's is effectively leading builders to use a different component and deviate from the original design.

If you reply that the yoke is just a simple transformer where nothing unusual happens or the material of the ferrite does not matter or it only needs to be LF, then it will be you who is theorizing.

Just remember that if you (plural) fail to make the Output power > PP power + Kacher power (or the sought intermediate waveforms) then the most likely culprit is the imprecise replication of one key component, namely the Yoke.

FYI: Even a conventional cored transformer is a very complicated device.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1357 on: 2021-07-02, 10:12:57 »

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And one more thing, noticing that the gain must happen in the red circuit is not theorizing.  It is schematic analysis.

Also, noticing that the red circuit is designed to carry two different frequency signals which become split at the cap and where the LF is routed to power conditioning components: L6, FWBR and caps that follow it, is not theorizing - it is circuit analysis.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1358 on: 2021-07-02, 10:17:38 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-02, 09:11:07
Vasik,
thanks again for the translation  / pdf.
First thing that strikes me is the blue collector voltage shown which is far more cleaner and regular then mine.
I don't think the elaborate circuit with the 3 MOSFETs is used, so it could be the problem i have.
Is there a circuit available of the used Kacher driver in this video which i can build to compare?

Itsu,

Most of Alexeev's circuits use controlled Tesla coil.
I am attaching one with kacher, it's a kacher variant with MOSFET (see green box on the left).
Probably he use something like this in this video.

Vasik

PS found another really old schematic with kacher, attached
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1359 on: 2021-07-02, 10:24:43 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-02, 09:23:27
It does show we have MHz E-field and H-fields,
Does the energy to construct these fields across the yoke come from the Kacher or from the PP ?

Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-02, 09:23:27
...but if it the cause of any power generating effect i don't know.
You are not certain about that one way or the other....and that's good.

Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-02, 09:23:27
I still think the earth wire is the primary cause for generating/supplying power somehow.
Wouldn't that mean that since only the Kacher's BJT emitter is grounded, then the extra energy must flow from the ground wire to the emitter and through the BJT to the collector and to the Kacher's secondary winding and to the rod-gizmo and to the spiral antenna and finally into the red circuit through the air gap ?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1360 on: 2021-07-02, 10:38:29 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 10:17:38
I am attaching one with kacher, it's a kacher variant with MOSFET (see green box on the left).
Tell us more about the slotted aluminum tube or foil roll in this Alexeev's device (razrezanaya aluminivaya truba ili folga).

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 10:17:38
PS found another really old schematic with kacher, attached
Is it Alexeev's ?
« Last Edit: 2021-07-02, 11:48:33 by verpies »
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1361 on: 2021-07-02, 12:27:02 »
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PW,

here is updated translation for the video.

Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1362 on: 2021-07-02, 12:35:14 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-02, 09:56:03
I only asked a question about any doubts regarding my conclusions about the E & H fields that the yoke is subjected to.
Only Picowatt wrote a valid doubt, making and alternative proposition that the PP is the source of the energy for the E-field between L2 and L3 - not the Kacher alone.

I did not ask what is the response of the ferrite to these E & H fields.  I asked you (plural) to consider that there could be an unexpected response.

  • I am not proposing changing the tuning motions that you had translated. By all means go ahead and do all that.
  • I am not proposing changes to the circuit at this time.
  • I am not leading Itsu and other builders to use different components.

However anyone (including you) you that does not insist that the ferrite material is exactly the same as the author's is effectively leading builders to use a different component and deviate from the original design.

If you reply that the yoke is just a simple transformer where nothing unusual happens or the material of the ferrite does not matter or it only needs to be LF, then it will be you who is theorizing.

Just remember that if you (plural) fail to make the Output power > PP power + Kacher power (or the sought intermediate waveforms) then the most likely culprit is the imprecise replication of one key component, namely the Yoke.

FYI: Even a conventional cored transformer is a very complicated device.

verpies,

both Stalker and Alexeev said that all kind of ferrite cores can be used instead of TV yoke, so perhaps, there is no need to worry about it's material now.

And about leading, I don't want to lead anybody. My idea was to make information about this device available to everyone. Unfortunately went way too far and in a wrong direction.

Regards,
Vasik

PS as an entertainment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHbzSif78qQ  ;)
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1363 on: 2021-07-02, 12:39:08 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-02, 10:38:29
Tell us more about the slotted aluminum tube or foil roll in this Alexeev's device (razrezanaya aluminivaya truba ili folga).
I don't have much to tell. Some Alexeev's coils contained aluminum foil. To increase capacitance and apply HV static voltage as I understand.

Quote
Is it Alexeev's ?
Supposingly yes.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1364 on: 2021-07-02, 12:56:58 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 10:17:38
Itsu,

Most of Alexeev's circuits use controlled Tesla coil.
I am attaching one with kacher, it's a kacher variant with MOSFET (see green box on the left).
Probably he use something like this in this video.

Vasik

PS found another really old schematic with kacher, attached

So does this mean that the shorting with the tweezers is done on a MOSFET?

Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1365 on: 2021-07-02, 12:58:44 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-02, 10:24:43
Does the energy to construct these fields across the yoke come from the Kacher or from the PP ?
You are not certain about that one way or the other....and that's good.
Wouldn't that mean that since only the Kacher's BJT emitter is grounded, then the extra energy must flow from the ground wire to the emitter and through the BJT to the collector and to the Kacher's secondary winding and to the rod-gizmo and to the spiral antenna and finally into the red circuit through the air gap ?




Quote
Does the energy to construct these fields across the yoke come from the Kacher or from the PP ?


When testing with the neon across the Yoke secondaries, i was not using the Push Pull (disconnected /open), just the Kacher, so for me these fields across the yoke come from the kacher.

Quote
Wouldn't that mean that since only the Kacher's BJT emitter is grounded, then the extra energy must flow from the ground wire to the emitter and through the BJT to the collector and to the Kacher's secondary winding and to the rod-gizmo and to the spiral antenna and finally into the red circuit through the air gap ?

Well, not only the  Kacher's BJT emitter is grounded, the whole return plane is, so there are many places this extra energy can enter the system.

Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1366 on: 2021-07-02, 13:03:32 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-02, 12:56:58
So does this mean that the shorting with the tweezers is done on a MOSFET?
No, because he clearly says that he is shorting the base and emitter in this video.
I think I posted about this here.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1367 on: 2021-07-02, 13:04:36 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 12:35:14
both Stalker and Alexeev said that all kind of ferrite cores can be used instead of TV yoke,
Easy to say when they are all using the same ferrite core from that old Russian TV. Namely the ОС-90.38ПЦ12.

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 12:39:08
Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-02, 10:38:29
Is it Alexeev's ?
Supposingly yes.
That Alexeev's schematic also has that ОС-90.38ПЦ12 core listed on it.

There are other examples, too:
For example the functional STAAAR yoke device also used the ОС-90.38ПЦ12 core:



Note the same scheme repeating over and over - two different frequency currents + HV applied to that core.

The same guy who got it working with the ОС-90.38ПЦ12 yoke core could not repeat his success with another core, listen to him saying that explicitly in this video.

...and then there is the self-running device by another author shown in this video which is using the same yoke core, too.

That's 4 anomalous devices using the same Russian core !   
It is no wonder that only people from the former Soviet Union eastern block are having success replicating these devices.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1368 on: 2021-07-02, 13:21:33 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-07-02, 12:56:58
So does this mean that the shorting with the tweezers is done on a MOSFET?

Itsu

He clearly says shorting base - emitter, but who knows.

Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1369 on: 2021-07-02, 13:25:57 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-02, 13:04:36
Easy to say when they are all using the same ferrite core from that old Russian TV. Namely the ОС-90.38ПЦ12.
Supposingly yes.

That Alexeev's schematic also has that ОС-90.38ПЦ12 core listed on it.

There are other examples, too:
For example the functional STAAAR yoke device also used the ОС-90.38ПЦ12 core:



Note the same scheme is repeated over and over - two different frequency currents + HV applied to that core.

...and then there is the self-running device shown in this video which is using the same yoke ferrite, too.

That's 4 anomalous devices using the same Russian core !   
It is no wonder that only people from the former Soviet Union eastern block are having success replicating these devices.

Rulslan use in many devices other core than yoke
Stalker use ring cores
Alexeev use other cores

It will work without moon soil  :)

BTW most yoke core obtained nowadays from old monitors, not TV's
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1370 on: 2021-07-02, 13:37:44 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 13:25:57
Rulslan use in many devices other core than yoke
Stalker use ring cores
Alexeev use other cores
They have tried using other cores but the working devices use the ОС-90.38ПЦ12 yoke core.

It is the same with the guy who got one device working with the ОС-90.38ПЦ12 yoke core but could not repeat his success with another core, listen to him saying that explicitly in this video.

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 13:25:57
It will work without moon soil  :)
Derision is not an argument.
4 functional devices which use this core is not a coincidence.

The ОС-90.38ПЦ12 yoke core is not made out of moon dust. It is a high-resistivity ceramic that just has properties that have been proven to work.
I have verified one unusual ferroelectric property of this core, myself and I already wrote about it in this thread.
It is quite likely that there are other cores that posses all the desirable properties...but why take the chance that they do not?
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1371 on: 2021-07-02, 13:56:33 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-02, 13:37:44
They have tried using other cores but the working devices use the ОС-90.38ПЦ12 yoke core.

When you stretch facts to fit your point I smile  :)
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1372 on: 2021-07-02, 14:02:15 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 12:27:02
PW,

here is updated translation for the video.

Vasik

Greatly appreciated Vasik.

Thank-you very much...

PW
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1373 on: 2021-07-02, 14:19:35 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-07-02, 09:56:03
Only Picowatt wrote a valid doubt...

Although I agree that the yoke might be more involved in this circuit's operation than as just a "simple transformer", consideration of the yoke as the source of the observed energy excess is rather low on my list of possibilities.

Quote
If you reply that the yoke is just a simple transformer where nothing unusual happens or the material of the ferrite does not matter or it only needs to be LF, then it will be you who is theorizing.

The author of the videos Vasik translated in the document thread stated various core configurations could be used for the yoke transformer.  He seems to imply its not all that special.  Perhaps the primary to secondary coupling is moreso the most critical aspect of this transformer (hence the split/shimmed yoke) 

Also of interest is that in the video Vasik recently translated, at 13:01, he states "it’s grenade squeak, not yoke".

PW
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1374 on: 2021-07-02, 14:28:06 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-07-02, 13:21:33
He clearly says shorting base - emitter, but who knows.

Vasik

Itsu,

Just realized that he also says that transistor is K2611 (in the first fragment).
So it is probably kacher made with K2611 and he wrongly name gate/source as base/emitter.

Vasik

PS https://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/448887/WINSEMI/K2611.html
   
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