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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 310099 times)
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1250 on: 2021-06-28, 02:56:33 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-06-28, 01:31:17
I'll bet you a cheezeburger that the Kacher mainly influences the ferrite driven by the PP ( this also includes influencing the ferrite indirectly via the Kacher's fields picked up by the grenade coil - watch and listen what happens when the author moves his hand over this grenade coil ).


Verpies,

Wouldn't that require a specific orientation/spacing between the Kacher (TC) and the (mostly) closed toroid of the yoke to couple the two?

Perhaps via the indirect route via the grenade as you mentioned.

Why was the yoke specified to be of LF ferrite material?

Just thinking out loud, so to speak...

PW

 
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1251 on: 2021-06-28, 04:10:23 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-06-28, 01:31:17
... watch and listen what happens when the author moves his hand over this grenade coil ...


What I hear is a bunch of squealing in the 4-8Kc area, with some occasional more broadbandish/whitish noise.

Your assumption, I suppose, is that the sound is emanating from one of the ferrite cores, with the split/shimmed yoke the likely culprit.

However, regardless of where it is emanating from, the frequency heard is pretty low relative to the PP and TC frequencies.

Also, there appears to be little of the audible frequencies displayed on the scope.

Perhaps a nonlinearity/detection... 

PW
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1252 on: 2021-06-28, 09:11:05 »

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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-06-28, 02:56:33
Wouldn't that require a specific orientation/spacing between the Kacher (TC) and the (mostly) closed toroid of the yoke to couple the two?
For the H field - yes*.
For other fields - no.

Also, when the influence on the ferrite is indirect (via the fields picked up by the grenade coil), then grenade's orientation to the Kacher elements matters ...and this is exactly what is observed.
Furthermore, even the specific orientation of the optional "rod gizmo" wrt to the grenade coil, is recommended by Stalker and other authors, verbatim.

Quote from: picowatt on 2021-06-28, 02:56:33
Why was the yoke specified to be of LF ferrite material?
I propose that this simply means that some ferrite materials worked for the author and some did not.
It does not have to be the LF property which is essential. It can be another property that has not been identified by the author.

Quote from: picowatt on 2021-06-28, 04:10:23
Your assumption, I suppose, is that the sound is emanating from one of the ferrite cores, with the split/shimmed yoke the likely culprit.
Yes, that is my assumption.
Also, the source of the sound is stated as such by several people working with these devices.

Quote from: picowatt on 2021-06-28, 04:10:23
... the frequency heard is pretty low relative to the PP and TC frequencies.
Also, there appears to be little of the audible frequencies displayed on the scope.
Perhaps a nonlinearity/detection... 
Yes - a detection of AM or some effect that builds up over time and culminates periodically, i.e. every 100 cycles.

* Geofusion reported the influence of the ferrite's orientation on the output of the device.
« Last Edit: 2021-06-28, 10:11:31 by verpies »
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1253 on: 2021-06-28, 09:16:01 »

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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-06-27, 21:52:06
Itsu,

Your scope capture's math (green channel?) looks more like a sum than a difference.  Perhaps I am not reading it correctly...

PW



PW,

yes the green channel is the math trace on this scope, it was set to CH1+CH2 as last time (your elaborate procedure) i found that the  "add and subtract"
seems reversed, so i toke that as subtrack, but i will check out what really is the case here.

On the other hand the math function on this scope is just that, the green trace, no numbers / value's available, so not very usefull.



Quote
Itsu,

Do you have an idea of what the voltage is at the output transformer (either side)?  I am curious as to what frequencies make it through the output transformer.

Also, you might watch the diff probing of the yoke's 3T with and without a load (ie, a lamp) connected to the output.

If the load draws more current at the PP frequency, this may be reflected as an increase in the 3T output (or decrease depending on phase of the connections).

PW


I can try that later today.


Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1254 on: 2021-06-28, 15:27:37 »

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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-06-28, 00:10:59
Have you attempted a similar replication? 
No. The Kacher scares my gear very much.
If I build something like this (but with the LTC6560), then I might be open to it.

Quote from: picowatt on 2021-06-28, 00:10:59
Has anyone that you are aware of looked into the properties of the output transformer/choke? 
The user Osiakosia did that on Stefan's forum.
I looked into the properties of the russian ferrite ОС-90.38ПЦ12 and confirmed that its magnetic permeability @100kHz is altered by -15% by external 80kV/m electric field from VDG.
« Last Edit: 2021-06-28, 23:56:09 by verpies »
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1255 on: 2021-06-28, 15:32:49 »

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PW,

Quote
Do you have an idea of what the voltage is at the output transformer (either side)?  I am curious as to what frequencies make it through the output transformer.


Below screenshot 1 and 2 are across the output transformer, SC 1 is input, SC 2 output, both with a 25W bulb as load.

Itsu
« Last Edit: 2021-06-28, 19:54:43 by Itsu »
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1256 on: 2021-06-28, 15:43:21 »

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PW,

Quote
Also, you might watch the diff probing of the yoke's 3T with and without a load (ie, a lamp) connected to the output.

Below screenshot 1 and 2 are across the 3 turn secondary with and without load (25W bulb)


Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1257 on: 2021-06-28, 16:54:22 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-28, 15:32:49
PW,


Below screenshot 1 and 2 are across the output transformer, SC 1 is input, SC 2 output, both with a 25W bulb as load.

Itsu

Itsu,

I am confused a bit by these captures.

First, why were the CH1/2 set to different scales?

Second, in the SC2 scope shot, the red channel, appears to be at or near ground. 

Is that correct?  If so, where is the path to ground?

(the inputs to the voltage converters are floating, correct?)

PW
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1258 on: 2021-06-28, 20:00:02 »

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PW, sorry for the confusion,


Quote
First, why were the CH1/2 set to different scales?

its a habit of me to set signals to about the same size on the scope, need to get rid of that.

Quote
Second, in the SC2 scope shot, the red channel, appears to be at or near ground. 

Its an old scope and dito probes, they have gone through a lot all these years and have their faults so now and then, so probably a contact problem.

Yes, the output is floating.


I have redone the input / output measurements, see corrected screenshots above.

Itsu

 
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1259 on: 2021-06-28, 22:26:41 »

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@PW

So what do you think of these signals ?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1260 on: 2021-06-29, 00:22:04 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-28, 20:00:02
PW, sorry for the confusion,


its a habit of me to set signals to about the same size on the scope, need to get rid of that.

Its an old scope and dito probes, they have gone through a lot all these years and have their faults so now and then, so probably a contact problem.

Yes, the output is floating.


I have redone the input / output measurements, see corrected screenshots above.

Itsu

Thanks Itsu,

I'm still a bit puzzled...

Regarding the output transformer, I was expecting somewhat similar amplitudes at both inputs.  That said, I see little evidence of any meaningful signal modification by the output transformer/choke.  Perhaps a significant load is required to discern its function.

Regarding the 3T, with and without a load, other than some change in the amount and position of the HF signals, I am really not seeing much change there either.

I am getting a bit confused since the probe snafu due to the limited info display on the Owon.

From now on, to avoid confusion on my part when making diff measurements with the Owon, just set CH1 and CH2 as you normally would (keep vertical gains identical, do not invert a channel) and display the difference (ie, CH1-CH2) in the math channel.

Routinely place both probes on the same measurement point to verify the difference between them is displayed as zero on the math channel.  That ensures that the vertical gain and the probe's are identical.

I'll give these captures further consideration, but for now, they have not been very revealing...

PW
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1261 on: 2021-06-29, 07:28:16 »
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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-06-28, 00:55:29
Verpies,

That's interesting.

When I first looked at the schematic for this replication, I thought perhaps the 3T and 25T on the yoke drove the inductor and grenade in such a way that the two balanced/canceled each other at the PP frequency.

The output choke, I assumed, unloaded the grenade tuning cap at the PP frequency allowing only a perhaps lower difference frequency through.

I also read in one of the many documents Vasik provided, that the output was not to be driven by normal transformer action, that is, the PP circuit does not power the load (allowing the PP circuit to run cool).

In this video, the fact that there is no output when he shorts the TC driver does support the idea that the inductor and grenade currents are to be balanced and canceling each other at the output, until the TC is activated.

Investigating the properties (frequency response) of the output choke could provide additional clues.

Just food for thought....

PW
Guy's  What's going on ?  What transformer are we talking about ? are we talking about the 'Yoke' or the 'Grenade' or the Tesla coil 'Katcher' and more to the point what part of that device are we refering to ?  lets keep it so we can all understand !

Can we please keep the tread so we can 'ALL' understand what's happening, PLEASE

Regards Sil
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1262 on: 2021-06-29, 09:10:56 »

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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2021-06-29, 07:28:16
What transformer are we talking about ?
Show me a schematic that you are referring to and I will circle that component on it for you.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1263 on: 2021-06-29, 09:12:39 »

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@Vasik

Does the frequency of the output waveform (before the FWBR) always double after the Kacher/TC is enabled ?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1264 on: 2021-06-29, 09:22:38 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-06-29, 09:12:39
@Vasik
Does the frequency of the output waveform (before the FWBR) always double after the Kacher/TC is enabled ?

No, why do you think so ?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1265 on: 2021-06-29, 10:25:54 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-06-29, 09:22:38
No, why do you think so ?
I saw it in this video.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1266 on: 2021-06-29, 11:22:17 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-06-29, 10:25:54
I saw it in this video.

I think I already made a translation for this video.
There are two unrelated things: tuning output frequency 2x to push pull and amplitude increase with kacher pulses

Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1267 on: 2021-06-29, 15:21:15 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-06-29, 11:22:17
There are two unrelated things: tuning output frequency 2x to push pull and amplitude increase with kacher pulses
The amplitude increase after the Kacher was enabled was obvious and widely discussed.
However, the frequency doubling of the output waveform after the Kacher was enabled was not discussed here AFAIR.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-29, 14:54:49
the video that you posted about the change in frequency and such, implies that the guy is tuning his grenade output coil and the rest of the device to do just that. Yet, so what?
The mere standing wave and LC "tuning" of the grenade coil cannot explain why the frequency of the output waveform (before FWBR) is equal to the PP frequency when the Kacher is disabled ...and 2x the PP frequency when the Kacher is enabled. 
I remind you that in both cases this "tuning" remains the same (i.e the grenade does not change its length nor its geometry...nor do any of the other windings).
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1268 on: 2021-06-29, 15:44:29 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-06-29, 15:21:15
The amplitude increase after the Kacher was enabled was obvious and widely discussed.
But the frequency doubling of the output waveform after the Kacher is enabled was not discussed AFAIR.

   
   Verpies:  He would need to show what all that doubling can do, with a several hundred watt load at the end. The amplitude is not going to be the same, as with a no load on condition, as shown. I understand that voltage readings need to be taken after the full bridge and filter caps, and not before. There is a purpose for the choke (transformer), rectifier, filter caps, etc, before going into the feed back PS.  Tuning will need to be redone when all the mentioned additions and feed back circuits, as well as a proper ground line, are in place. You can see that Geo's device won't even run without a ground line connected. But, mine will.

   NickZ
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1269 on: 2021-06-29, 16:10:16 »

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Was trying to simulate the Kacher part of the device using LTspiceXVII by modifying a found slayer.asc sim.

I found this model for the 2SC5200 transistor which i needed to add to the "standard.bjt" file used by LTspice:

.model 2SC5200_k npn IS=300f BF=100 NF=1 BR=8.025 NR=1.0 ISE=200p IKF=18 NE=2.0 ISC=2.01764E-10 NC=1.5 VAF=400 VAR=100 IKR=1.39087 RB=1.1 RBM=0.00011 IRB=1.51189E-6 RE=0.0032 RC=0.0183 CJE=6.1n VJE=0.711 MJE=0.304 FC=0.5 CJC=380p VJC=0.84 MJC=0.25 TF=5n TR=3.342E-7 XTB=1.72 EG=0.78 XTI=3

Its only a basic kacher / slayer configuration using the coil values i have now.
But it oscillates around the same frequency and it shows the "pulsing" collector signal (blue).

Itsu 
 
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1270 on: 2021-06-29, 16:26:11 »

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Nick,

At this stage of analysis my questions were:
- "Does that frequency doubling always happen after enabling the Kacher?" and
- "What is the mechanism that causes the doubling to happen?"

What "all that doubling can do" to the load is a different story and beyond the scope of my questions.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-29, 15:44:29
The amplitude is not going to be the same, as with a no load on condition, as shown.
My question was not about the amplitude - it was about the frequency.

I do not wish to discuss amplitudes with you now. Even if amplitudes are the ultimate issue.
If I did, I would start by point out that in both cases the output circuit was loaded with an oven heating element.  Are you suggesting that enabling the Kacher somehow altered the resistance of this load or altered the capacitance of that capacitor ?

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-29, 15:44:29
I understand that voltage readings need to be taken after the full bridge and filter caps, and not before.
This might be a good rule for easily measuring the output power of the entire device, but note that my questions did not refer to the calculation of the output power at all.
They referred to the output frequency across that capacitor marked in red or behind the CM choke marked in blue.
For that purpose, the measurements need to be made before rectification and filtering.  I think that in this video, rectification and filtering wasn't implemented at all, as these current conditioning stages are immaterial to the energy gain.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1271 on: 2021-06-29, 16:44:04 »
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  Well your questions would imply that we or rather I am supposed to know what happens in all situations. But, I have not seen that doubling to be the case in my device. And Vasik has answered you, with a no, as well.   Vasik understands what is being said in the video, I don't. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
  Yet, my question is, that what he is showing may not be of any real consequence at the output?  As I don't care about the doubling, nor think that it may be important. You want to know why the doubling happens, I would have to guess. If you want more than that, I'll pass, as I don't know that device.  But, I would say that he is tuning for that response, using the tuning caps, and such. As I don't get that response, I can't answer the question, and can only guess that he thinks that that is a needed effect. Itsu may be able to supply more info on that doubling issue.
  I have no clue that there is an heating element connected, as I'm busy at work, so, some things I do miss.

   NickZ

   EDIT: Yes, I was distracted at work, and did not see the U shaped resistor. Yet, I don't know anything about that device or its load, nor can I see what it can do, other than sit there and get hot. So, I won't put much importance on that replication. Nor is it shown self running.


   
« Last Edit: 2021-06-29, 20:30:07 by NickZ »
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1272 on: 2021-06-29, 18:08:07 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-29, 16:10:16
Was trying to simulate the Kacher part of the device using LTspiceXVII by modifying a found slayer.asc sim.

I found this model for the 2SC5200 transistor which i needed to add to the "standard.bjt" file used by LTspice:

.model 2SC5200_k npn IS=300f BF=100 NF=1 BR=8.025 NR=1.0 ISE=200p IKF=18 NE=2.0 ISC=2.01764E-10 NC=1.5 VAF=400 VAR=100 IKR=1.39087 RB=1.1 RBM=0.00011 IRB=1.51189E-6 RE=0.0032 RC=0.0183 CJE=6.1n VJE=0.711 MJE=0.304 FC=0.5 CJC=380p VJC=0.84 MJC=0.25 TF=5n TR=3.342E-7 XTB=1.72 EG=0.78 XTI=3

Its only a basic kacher / slayer configuration using the coil values i have now.
But it oscillates around the same frequency and it shows the "pulsing" collector signal (blue).


Itsu,

Nice simulation :)
Pulsing collector signal - most probably primary resonating with 22pf.
In reality secondary capacitance is distributed, so oscillations are more complex.
I tried adding capacitor in parallel to primary coil, 10-30nf give some resonance, but I can't get higher voltage on the secondary. It is probably because this simulation don't take into account wave processes.

BTW How your kacher experiments are going ?

Regards,
Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1273 on: 2021-06-29, 19:30:48 »

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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-29, 16:44:04
Well your questions imply that we are supposed to know what happens in all situations. I have not seen that doubling to be the case in my device. And Vasik has answered you, with a no, as well.
Not that you are supposed to know all, but you are supposed to know more - especially empirical data since you have been at it for a long time and you have many more experimental hours logged in than I. 
If neither you nor Vasik has seen or noticed that doubling then I will take it as a quod ad populum.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-29, 16:44:04
You want to know why the doubling happens, we would have to guess.
I don't want you to guess.  I want you (plural) to explain it away using the knowledge of conventional phenomena and if that fails then classify it as an unconventional phenomenon that needs attention.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-29, 16:44:04
Yet, my point is that what he is showing is of any real consequence, at the output? Or not?
The frequncy doubling could be of tremendous importance if it is an indicator of some energy gain mechanism.
...and a useful tuning indicator, too.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-29, 16:44:04
But, I would say that he is tuning for that response, using the tuning caps, and such.
You keep repeating that but fail to consider why that highly purposeful "tuning" is not functional when the Kacher is inactive.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #1274 on: 2021-06-29, 19:54:50 »
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verpies,

I watched video one more time. Now I understand what you mean "frequency doubling".
I put scope images with kacher off (top) and on(bottom) on same image.
It seems that you right.
My guess is that without kacher and with heavy load connected we are seeing frequency coming from push pull which is 1/2 of frequency output coil tuned on.
Kacher adding lot of current and so oscillations in output coil grow significantly higher than push pull signal and so we see output coil frequency.
Do you have better idea ?

Vasik

PS Probably it was bad idea to bring Alexeev's videos in discussions. It is more confusing than helping. Better stay with Stalker's info.

PPS I still think that amplitude growth and frequency doubling are separate things. There is Ruslan's vide where amplitude just grows. So output frequency determined by coil inductance and capacitor, not affected by kacher.
   
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