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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 310101 times)
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img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #875 on: 2021-06-13, 11:35:40 »

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Earlier we discussed fish-like signals, and there were doubts that they are real.
I'he been looking for good scope traces...here they are, made with analog and digital scopes.

source: https://realstrannik.com/forum/ustanovka-kulabukhova/1327-ustanovka-za-5000-evro-sergej-panov?start=80#102194
https://realstrannik.com/forum/ustanovka-kulabukhova/1327-ustanovka-za-5000-evro-sergej-panov?start=160#102391

Vasik,

thanks, i think those are real, but i do still have my doubts about the ones i have seen myself if they where real.



Anyway, i found some IR2113's, so replaced the IR2110 with one and they show the same signals / value's as in my previous (post #873).

Still at 12V the Kacher is very low on output, unable to light a NE-2 neon.

 
Itsu
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #876 on: 2021-06-13, 15:15:26 »
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  Itsu:
  What does your kacher do on 24v?  At that voltage (24v) my simple kacher can output a 5 to 10mm streamer.
What is the voltage at the base of your 2SC5200 transistor? It should be up to 5v, or so, for maximum output.
Is there any visible interaction or sound (ringing) between the Kacher and induction circuit, yet? Radio Moscow, etc?

   NickZ
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #877 on: 2021-06-13, 16:06:07 »
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Earlier we discussed fish-like signals, and there were doubts that they are real.
I'he been looking for good scope traces...here they are, made with analog and digital scopes.

I have seen those forms countless times and it's just signal modulation.

The first time I saw it was when building the Adams motor. The magnet on the rotor induces a clean sine wave on the stator coil which is then interrupted by a transistor running at high frequency. Thus the product is a high frequency embedded within a sine or other wave form like the pictures you posted. As I continued by experiments I found that any number of discrete frequencies can be injected into the main wave form.

At which point were verging into TPU territory whereby a two phase shifted frequencies could produce a travelling wave upon a conventional sine wave. Here it's important to understand the the concept of "Energy". Energy is motion, Energy is change and whenever there is more change there is more energy present.

Regards
AC


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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #878 on: 2021-06-13, 16:19:21 »

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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 15:15:26
  Itsu:
  What does your kacher do on 24v?  At that voltage (24v) my simple kacher can output a 5 to 10mm streamer.
What is the voltage at the base of your 2SC5200 transistor? It should be up to 5v, or so, for maximum output.
Is there any visible interaction or sound (ringing) between the Kacher and induction circuit, yet? Radio Moscow, etc?

   NickZ

Hi Nick,

on 24V, not much is happening, a ne-2 neon still won't light up, no streamers seen whatsoever.

The signal on the base of the transistor looks like below screenshot, so 500mV or so and i guess that the problem.

I have not connected the "induction circuit", so no interaction there either.

I first need the kacher to work reliable before going to that next step.

Itsu

 
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #879 on: 2021-06-13, 16:37:13 »

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Here i have attached a 470K resistor to the collector and feed it with 24V.

The screenshots show the base signal in red and collector signal in yellow.

First screenshot shows severall cycles and shows that the base signal itself does nut fully activate the transistor, only the peak at the end does.
Second screenshot shows it better.

Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #880 on: 2021-06-13, 17:36:14 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-13, 16:19:21
The signal on the base of the transistor looks like below screenshot, so 500mV or so and i guess that the problem.
The bipolar transistor cares more about the base current than the base voltage.
The base starts drawing current significantly around +600mV and pulls the base driver down.

Go figure why the circuit driving the base gets bogged down and is not able to feed more current into the base of the BJT.
Also you have to decide whether you want this driver (or the spiral antenna) to feed the majority of the current into the base*.

* I remember that someone in this thread wrote, that the role of the base driver is only to put the BJT into its linear amplifying regime periodically, so the signal from the spiral antenna gets amplified linearly (also periodically).
« Last Edit: 2021-06-13, 22:17:49 by verpies »
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #881 on: 2021-06-13, 17:42:50 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-13, 16:37:13
Here i have attached a 470K resistor to the collector and feed it with 24V.

The screenshots show the base signal in red and collector signal in yellow.

First screenshot shows severall cycles and shows that the base signal itself does nut fully activate the transistor, only the peak at the end does.
Second screenshot shows it better.

Itsu

Itsu,

Which exact circuit diagram are you using to drive this bipolar?

Regards,
Pm
   
img  Centraflow
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #882 on: 2021-06-13, 19:01:49 »

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Buy me a beer
Why not use the attached

Regards

Mike 8)
« Last Edit: 2021-06-13, 20:29:08 by Centraflow »


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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #883 on: 2021-06-13, 20:00:41 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-06-13, 17:36:14
The bipolar transistor cares more about the base current than the base voltage.
The base starts drawing current significantly around +600mV and pulls the base driver down.

Go figure why the circuit driving the base gets bogged down and is not able to feed more current into the base of the BJT.
Also you have to decide whether you want this driver (or the spiral antenna) to feed the majority of the current into the base*.

* I remember that someone in this thread wrote, that the role of the base driver is only to put the BJT into its linear amplifying regime periodically, so the signal from the spiral antenna gets amplified linearly (also periodically).


The base signal looks this way from the beginning, see:  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg91672#msg91672  but there it was able to fully activate the transistor (12V though).

So the base current comes via Q5, SR510 (1N5819 in my case) and R17 (8.2K).

Probably the 8.2K now causes a significant voltage drop.


Quote
Also you have to decide whether you want this driver (or the spiral antenna) to feed the majority of the current into the base*.

not sure what you mean by that, do you mean that the "majority of the current into the base" should come from the  spiral antenna (meaning kacher plus antenna) via the secondary bottom (feedback) wire?


 
Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #884 on: 2021-06-13, 20:01:38 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2021-06-13, 17:42:50
Itsu,

Which exact circuit diagram are you using to drive this bipolar?

Regards,
Pm

PM, 

i am using the below diagram.

Itsu
   
img  partzman
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #885 on: 2021-06-13, 20:21:23 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-13, 20:01:38
PM, 

i am using the below diagram.

Itsu

Itsu,

OK, thanks.  I was hoping I could offer some help but I don't think I understand the overall operation of Stalker's circuit.  I would agree with you that the 8.2k resistor is limiting the base drive current at this point but is this really required...............?

Regards,
Pm
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #886 on: 2021-06-13, 20:30:50 »

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Buy me a beer
oops

Forgot the link or did not activate, in my previous post, now rectified

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #887 on: 2021-06-13, 20:39:44 »

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Thanks Mike,

yes, thats a proven good working MOSFET Kacher / Tesla coil circuit.

Stalker also has something like that presented in the rk_rev2.pdf from  Vasik, which could be an alternative to the transistor circuit, see below.

Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #888 on: 2021-06-13, 20:47:37 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-13, 20:00:41
not sure what you mean by that, do you mean that the "majority of the current into the base" should come from the  spiral antenna (meaning kacher plus antenna) via the secondary bottom (feedback) wire?
I have not designed the damned thing thus I do not KNOW what the intent of this circuit is but one possibility is that it is a Gated Linear Amplifier. 

This would mean, that when Q5/D1/R17/R18 applies proper bias to the base of the BJT, then the BJT is transformed into a linear amplifier and the signal from the spiral antenna is linearly amplified by it.  This amplification happens periodically and only when IR2110 pin1 is high and pin7 is low.

Notice that in such mode of operation most of the current required to drive the base of the BJT does not come from the Q5/D1/R17/R18 biasing circuit.  It comes from the antenna (ksbw).
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #889 on: 2021-06-13, 21:00:16 »

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Ok,  so we need confirmation that "a gated linear amplifier" is being meant here.

If that is the case, why does it not seem to work in my case?
Do i not have the "proper bias to the base of the BJT" yet?

And by "It comes from the antenna" you mean via the air, or via that bottom wire from the secondary?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #890 on: 2021-06-13, 21:12:26 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-13, 21:00:16
And by "It comes from the antenna" you mean via the air, or via that bottom wire from the secondary?
I mean the antenna which you wrote in red color on the following diagram attached to your reply #402:
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #891 on: 2021-06-13, 21:32:46 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-06-13, 21:00:16
Do I not have the "proper bias to the base of the BJT" yet?
I do not know. 
You can find out by loading the BJT's collector with a resistor (instead of the coil) and applying a small sine signal from your FG to the base of the BJT via a capacitor.

Scope the collector, vary R17 and see at what base bias the BJT amplifies the signal from the FG the best.
In order to observe continuous (non-pulsed) amplification, you can force the tc point to +12V for this test, ...just like before
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #892 on: 2021-06-13, 21:41:29 »

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Ok,   sounds like a plan, i can try that tomorrow, thanks.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #893 on: 2021-06-13, 21:43:59 »
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  Itsu:
   I have had that problem. If your transistor base is not getting the 5v emmiter base voltage, then you are not going to get the needed results.
   So, try to get the 5v on there, and it should work. Like Vasik mentioned, the higher the base voltage, the higher is the output, up to 5 volts.
   I'm glad it's not me going through all this. And, I doubt that the antenna signal has anything to do with it. 
   I did not design it either, but have spent much time behind the wheel.
   NickZ
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #894 on: 2021-06-13, 22:17:21 »

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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 21:43:59
If your transistor base is not getting the 5v, then you are not going to get the needed results.
Are you getting the needed results with 5V on the base?
Do you realize the 5V VBE is the Absolute Maximum Rating of the 2SC5200 transistor ?
It is a very bad thing to operate any transistor at the limit of its Absolute Maximum Rating.

Look what happens to the base current above 0.6V:



Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 21:43:59
So, try to get the 5v on there, and it should work.
What do you mean by "work" ?
If you mean pulsing the coil with the maximum possible current by saturating the BJT 24,000 times pers second, then there are much better ways of doing that, ...especially by not using a BJT at all !
i.e. using an IGBT or N-ch MOSFET instead of the BJT because they are faster, cooler, require less drive current and generally can handle larger drain currents faster.

Anyway, below is a simpler method that still uses the BJT in pulsed saturated mode:



Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 21:43:59
Like Vasik mentioned, the higher the voltage, the higher is the output. Lower voltage, lower output.
I think he meant VCE, not VBE.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 21:43:59
I doubt that the antenna signal has anything to do with it. 
You seem awfully sure about that.
Consider that using a BJT to pulse a coil instead of a IGBT or MOSFET does not make much sense.  IGBTs and MOSFETs are faster, cooler, require less drive current and generally can switch larger drain currents faster and are easier to control.
BJT makes sense only as a linear amplifier.  If this is true then it means that the Q3/Q4/Q5 circuit only works to bias and gate this linear amplifier.

If you are wrong, you are missing a very important mode of operation, namely the amplified feedback of the MHz signal from the antenna.
The antenna is supposed to have some function - doesn't it ?
« Last Edit: 2021-06-13, 23:17:54 by verpies »
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #895 on: 2021-06-13, 22:36:34 »
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     Verpies:
    Yes, and no. The antenna is supposed to do something, correct. But, not what you are assuming. It is supposed to provide for a HV, HF interuptor signal. Witch is supposed to cause the inductor pulse circuit to be temporarly interupted. Which will also supposed to cause a higher output on the inductor/grenade output circuits. That is the plan, as I understand it.

    I am not trying to redesign the wheel. Just trying to make it "work" the way it's supposed to.
    Not sure if you know what is actually really needed, in this case. As you have not shown a working self runner, nor have I.

   NickZ
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #896 on: 2021-06-13, 22:56:57 »

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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 22:36:34
Yes, and no.
"Yes" to what and "no" to what ?  Be precise.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 22:36:34
The antenna is supposed to do something, correct. But, not what you are assuming.
So what is it supposed to do?
Why is the antenna connected to the base of the BJT ?  What is supposed to happen with the antenna's MHz signal there?

Why is a BJT used when IGBT or MOSFET would be better for coil pulsing only?

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 22:36:34
I am not trying to redesign the wheel. Just trying to make it "work" the way it's supposed to.
Maybe you just did redesign it with a diferent M.O. by applying an Absolute Maximum Rated voltage as VBE, because with such VBE the BJT has no chances of working as a linear amplifier.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 22:36:34
Not sure if you know what is really needed, in this case.
I do not know what is needed.
But ...I know that if Gated Linear Amplifier is needed, then putting 5V between the base and emitter is exactly the wrong thing to do

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 22:36:34
As you have not shown a working self runner, nor have I.
True but I have postulated a viable mode of operation of this BJT and you did not.  The large R17 and D1 supports the hypothesis that Q5 is a part of a gated biasing circuit for a linear amplifier (not a saturating BJT base driver).
There really are better ways to pulse a coil than with a saturated BJT and that is a valid argument against this M.O.

Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 21:43:59
I did not design it either, but have spent much time behind the wheel.
...and this is the first time I am analyzing this circuit.

Do you allow for the possibility that you have been behind the wheel for a long time on a road going in the wrong direction and that is the reason why you keep driving through a desert ?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #897 on: 2021-06-13, 23:18:25 »
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   Verpies:
   And do you allow for the possibility that you have no idea how this is supposed to work?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #898 on: 2021-06-13, 23:23:09 »

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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-06-13, 23:18:25
And do you allow for the possibility that you have no idea how this is supposed to work?
Yes, I already stated that in my previous message.
This is not a social pissing contest.  I want to know how this Kacher driver works and it does not matter to me if the M.O. is my idea or yours.

Better focus on the technical arguments in the messages above.
I want to read all of your arguments for pulsing the coil by a saturated BJT switch with 5V on its base and the purpuse of the antenna's MHz signal.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #899 on: 2021-06-13, 23:48:42 »
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    Verpies:
   A social pissing contest?  That is not my intention.
  If you'd like to know how this contraption is supposed to work, I would suggest that you read all the pdfs that Vasik has been nice enough to provide.
  No need to insult me. I am only offering my opinion. That's all. Or are you really worried about burning up a cheap transistor, by providing it with the maximum allowed voltages at it's base. Really?

   NickZ
   
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