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2024-11-26, 08:57:27
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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 310150 times)
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img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #675 on: 2021-05-27, 16:33:21 »
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Itsu,

Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-27, 14:40:09
So these current transformers as seen in the red circled  area in the first picture are constructed like in the diagram?

Yes.
I made a summary of the video (see attached file)

Vasik

PS I guess we need try tuning both inductor and gradient coil to same frequency and 30 degrees phase shift
 
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #676 on: 2021-05-27, 16:40:31 »
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Just a side comment:
The reason why self made current probes used is... because normal current probes are very expensive.
You almost can by a cheap scope for same money.

Vasik
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #677 on: 2021-05-27, 16:52:29 »
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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-05-27, 15:18:41

    PW:  Remember that this type of device has two systems that need to be working together, for any overunity readings to be observed.
    There is the push pull magnetic induction circuit, and also the Kacher's (controlable HV circuit) supplying the HF signal.
Therefore, the input to output readings need both circuits working together to be able to provide for self running. That will not happen while just running the push pull circuit, and taking reading without the Kacher circuit on, as well. So, all that we'll see at this time, is just the less than overunity readings, until the Kacher is tuned and working along with the push pull circuit. And yes, the input to output reading can serve to see what kind of efficiency there is in the push pull circuit, only. But, that will change in the future with the addition of the Kacher signal, on top of the push pull signals. At least, that is the plan. I hope this helps to understand why itsu is seeing such low underunity type of readings at this time.
 
   There is a ton of information (and miss information) about this device, too much in fact. Which are trying to make an attempt at understanding and explaining the workings of this device. But, it takes much time to go through it all, and no one will understand what is really going on, until you see it actually working right. And even then, some guys may assume that it's NMR, or some scope or meters reading errors involved, instead, of a device which is harvesting and utilizing the local ambient energies. This is what we are here to find out.

   I'm almost to the point of jumping into this ball game, again. Just waiting to see itsu's full diagnostics. As well as Vasilli device, kickin ass...

   NickZ

NickZ,

I understand the above, and was not expecting OU at this point.  However, I had no idea how 4 bulbs @52V compared to 2 bulbs @ 160V and just wanted to keep track of in/out efficiency as Itsu adjusted the push-pull.

On another note, are the two monostables in series with the TL494's PWM outputs actually required for operation?  As they are only delays, is there sufficient delay adjustment built into the Kacher circuit string to alleviate the need for the PWM monostables?

If the PWM monostables are required, how are those two delays adjusted?

PW
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #678 on: 2021-05-27, 17:43:18 »
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PW,

Quote from: picowatt on 2021-05-27, 16:52:29
As they are only delays, is there sufficient delay adjustment built into the Kacher circuit string to alleviate the need for the PWM monostables?

Kacher need some time to gain maximum amplitude.
So it should be fired before push pull.
It is difficult to shift signals ahead, therefore instead push pull pulses are delayed.

Vasik
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #679 on: 2021-05-27, 18:21:16 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-05-27, 17:43:18
PW,

Kacher need some time to gain maximum amplitude.
So it should be fired before push pull.
It is difficult to shift signals ahead, therefore instead push pull pulses are delayed.

Vasik

Would eliminating the PWM delays and adding additional delay to the Kacher string accomplish the same thing?

PW
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #680 on: 2021-05-27, 18:30:24 »
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PW,

Quote from: picowatt on 2021-05-27, 18:21:16
Would eliminating the PWM delays and adding additional delay to the Kacher string accomplish the same thing?

Yes, then you need delay for about one cycle of push pull.
I am not the author of the schematic, so I don't know exactly why it done like this.
It works. It is enough for prototype. What else do we need ? :)

Vasik
   
img  picowatt
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #681 on: 2021-05-27, 18:37:16 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-05-27, 18:30:24
PW,

Yes, then you need delay for about one cycle of push pull.
I am not the author of the schematic, so I don't know exactly why it done like this.
It works. It is enough for prototype. What else do we need ? :)

Vasik

Vasik,

It has been said that tuning requires a fair amount of precision.  Eliminating the two variable delays in the PWM outputs by adding one larger fixed delay (using precision RC), to the Kacher string, might make tuning a bit easier or more stable.

Just food for thought...

PW
 
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #682 on: 2021-05-27, 21:08:18 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-05-27, 16:33:21
Itsu,

Yes.
I made a summary of the video (see attached file)

Vasik

PS I guess we need try tuning both inductor and gradient coil to same frequency and 30 degrees phase shift

Vasik,

interesting video / text, thanks.

There also is important info on how to connect the Inductor / grenade to their capacitors and the current probes:

inductor’s cold end (where inductor winding starts) goes to 3 turns coil, other 3 turns coil’s end goes to capacitor(s) and then to hot inductor end (where inductor winding ends, marked with red tape).
Current sensors will be used for tuning current phases in hot ends of inductor and gradient coil

So this determines the position of the hot / cold ends of the inductor/Grenade to their series capacitors, which is good to know as i had the inductor wired wrongly.


This afternoon i already build such a current transformer/probe using what i had (green toroid, 15 turns, 6 Ohm resistor) and it very well compares to the both current probes i have.

So i put my 3 current probes in the hot end of the Grenade to make some measurements.

I lowered the duty cycle to 27% which lowered the input and output.

I then scanned for the fish like / dancing wave by changing the time base and found some, see screenshot and video:      https://youtu.be/R1V9NREXfh0
Purple is current transformer
blue is AC current probe
green is AC/DC current probe (DC defective).
 
I am still not convinced that what i see is real or some artifact, but i can show it after carefull tuning.


Quote
PS I guess we need try tuning both inductor and gradient coil to same frequency and 30 degrees phase shift

Considering this, i agree, as i never have seen someone use the 5th harmonic for the inductor compared to the grenade, so i have to retune the caps so it resonates at 24.7KHz.

But i am puzzled on how to get this 30%  phase shift between inductor and grenade currents.


Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #683 on: 2021-05-27, 21:43:39 »

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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2021-05-27, 16:17:46
the push pull and yoke and grenade has got to produce the string of eggs (fish) connected in a line called a standing wave first
if you can't get that wave form, that problem needs to be fixed,...
The "fish eggs conneced in a line" is a classic scope display of an amplitude modulated sine wave.
If you want to see how whether that appears the same way as what you are talking about, ask Itsu to AM modulate a sine carrier with his FG and view it on his scope. He will not even have to lift a soldering iron to indulge you.

In the past I wrote that I am not impressed with the performance of the home-made inductive current probes, because they are cheap in all meanings of this word.
I have criticized their  frequency dependent phase errors, frequency dependent amplitudes, ferrite's hysteresis superimposed on the output signals, etc..., but I must write that despite these shortcomings these current probes are not capable of creating an illusion of deeply amplitude-modulated signals.

However, the aliasing of digital scope's low sampling rate and a higher frequency signal - is.

If aliasing is not responsible for the "fish eggs on the string" image on the display, then the amplitude-modulated signal is as important as you write.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #684 on: 2021-05-27, 21:45:41 »
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Itsu,

cool, you got it  O0 :D

Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-27, 21:08:18
I am still not convinced that what i see is real or some artifact, but i can show it after carefull tuning.
Well, if you have analog scope you can try it, you will see similar traces.

Quote
But i am puzzled on how to get this 30%  phase shift between inductor and grenade currents.
I think you need adjust capacitor, so grenade coil will be not in a perfect resonance but somewhere close.

BTW you can try tuning both coils to 122KHz also (not to 24.4Khz), see what is more convenient for you

Vasik
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #685 on: 2021-05-27, 22:05:03 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-27, 21:08:18
I am still not convinced that what i see is real or some artifact, but i can show it after carefull tuning.
Modern digital scopes have triggering modes which can trigger the scope when the measured signal stays below some level (or between two levels), for a time longer than some time t. 
Such trigger will catch an AM signal, but it will not be fooled by sampling aliasing.

Infinite persistence mode can aid in visualizing AM, too.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #686 on: 2021-05-28, 09:03:17 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-05-27, 21:45:41
Itsu,

cool, you got it  O0 :D
Well, if you have analog scope you can try it, you will see similar traces.
I think you need adjust capacitor, so grenade coil will be not in a perfect resonance but somewhere close.

BTW you can try tuning both coils to 122KHz also (not to 24.4Khz), see what is more convenient for you

Vasik

Vasik,

no analog scope in the house.

I think i go for 24KHz on both coils first.

Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #687 on: 2021-05-28, 09:04:24 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-05-27, 22:05:03
Modern digital scopes have triggering modes which can trigger the scope when the measured signal stays below some level (or between two levels), for a time longer than some time t. 
Such trigger will catch an AM signal, but it will not be fooled by sampling aliasing.

Infinite persistence mode can aid in visualizing AM, too.

Great, i will play with it somewhat to convince myself the modulated signal is real.

Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #688 on: 2021-05-28, 13:03:40 »

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Do your drain voltage signals change the same way when you vary the push-pull's duty cycle ?
Specifically, I am referring to the disappearing and appearing of the HF oscillations when the duty cycle is being varied monotonically, as shown in the video below:
https://youtu.be/XDXTxPRPxSU?t=835
   
img  AlienGrey
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #689 on: 2021-05-28, 15:43:57 »
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Vasic,

Question for you, where in the bunch of schematics is the delay circuit ? or do you mean phase shift ?

Well try this.

Next question if your modulating a carrier where is the modulation timing sine wave generated ?
or is the 20 khz suposto modulate the tesla 2mhz freq ?  >:-)

also the grenade if I were you i would only add a cap across the 37.5 mtr winding and if
as an example its 37.5 mtrs long you need to feed into the inductor winding something like 20khz

you then need to find the inductance of that winding and as it has 3 sections then tune it to 60 khz
and check the amplitude across the grenade winding and tuning  cap so you get all 3 20khz waves on top of each other. And no it’s not resonance at 20khz it will read 60khz on your scope.

Works for me.

SIL
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #690 on: 2021-05-28, 16:01:38 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-05-28, 13:03:40
Do your drain voltage signals change the same way when you vary the push-pull's duty cycle ?
Specifically, I am referring to the disappearing and appearing of the HF oscillations when the duty cycle is being varied monotonically, as shown in the video below:
https://youtu.be/XDXTxPRPxSU?t=835

In this video at the 15:42 mark, is that a copper foil at least under the primaries on the primary half of the core?

Pm
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #691 on: 2021-05-28, 16:06:56 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-05-28, 13:03:40
Do your drain voltage signals change the same way when you vary the push-pull's duty cycle ?
Specifically, I am referring to the disappearing and appearing of the HF oscillations when the duty cycle is being varied monotonically, as shown in the video below:
https://youtu.be/XDXTxPRPxSU?t=835

Yes, i can almost exactly copy that behaviour / signal seen in the video, but only like there, with nothing connected to the 3/5 turn secondary (or 18 turn secondary which is not there in that video).

Once hooked up to the inductor series LC circuit and/or Grenade series LC circuit, signals cannot be replicated so cleanly.


Itsu 
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #692 on: 2021-05-28, 16:44:22 »

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Looking at the below signal from yesterday (screenshot 1), we see a sine wave like signal being modulated by another.
The base sine wave signal was 24.4KHz and the modulated signal (100ms between peaks is) 3.8Hz or so.

In below video i replicate this by using my FG.

Base sine wave signal set to 24.4KHz, AM modulated (90%) with 3.8Hz, see screenshot 2.

We see the same modulated signal, but there are some differences, like that its stable with every time base step i take.
Also at the base signal frequency we "see" already some jittering from the modulation.

Both of those indications i miss on the grenade generated modulated signal.

Video here:  https://youtu.be/XD8U05PDe04

Itsu
 
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #693 on: 2021-05-28, 17:18:45 »
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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2021-05-28, 15:43:57
Vasic,

Question for you, where in the bunch of schematics is the delay circuit ? or do you mean phase shift ?

Well try this.

Next question if your modulating a carrier where is the modulation timing sine wave generated ?
or is the 20 khz suposto modulate the tesla 2mhz freq ?  >:-)

also the grenade if I were you i would only add a cap across the 37.5 mtr winding and if
as an example its 37.5 mtrs long you need to feed into the inductor winding something like 20khz

you then need to find the inductance of that winding and as it has 3 sections then tune it to 60 khz
and check the amplitude across the grenade winding and tuning  cap so you get all 3 20khz waves on top of each other. And no it’s not resonance at 20khz it will read 60khz on your scope.

Works for me.

SIL

AG,

There are delay or phase shift circuits, for push pull U6, RV1,5 C19,20
for Tesla coil trigger U8C, RV6, C21

According to my understanding modulation happen due to interaction of inductor and grenade coil.
If push pull frequency tuned properly to sub harmonic of grenade coil it will excite HF oscillations there.
These oscillations form a standing wave, so it is not exactly AM signal, it just looks like it.

Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #694 on: 2021-05-28, 17:20:11 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-28, 16:44:22
Looking at the below signal from yesterday (screenshot 1), we see a sine wave like signal being modulated by another.
The base sine wave signal was 24.4KHz and the modulated signal (100ms between peaks is) 3.8Hz or so.
In below video i replicate this by using my FG.
Base sine wave signal set to 24.4KHz, AM modulated (90%) with 3.8Hz, see screenshot 2.
We see the same modulated signal, but there are some differences, like that its stable with every time base step i take.
Also at the base signal frequency we "see" already some jittering from the modulation.
Both of those indications i miss on the grenade generated modulated signal.

Itsu,

I would like to confirm is it 3.8 Hz or 3.8 KHz ?

Also do you have ground connected to grenade ? Does it make any difference ?

Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #695 on: 2021-05-28, 17:40:18 »

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Its (was) 3.8Hz, now its around 30Hz but moving around (just started it up).

Connecting the ground to the circuit seems to have no influence on this modulation.

Itsu
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #696 on: 2021-05-28, 17:55:16 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-28, 17:40:18
Its (was) 3.8Hz, now its around 30Hz but moving around (just started it up).

Connecting the ground to the circuit seems to have no influence on this modulation.

Itsu

So modulation depends on push pull frequency ?
Or just drifting istelf ?

Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #697 on: 2021-05-28, 17:59:26 »

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At the moment its drifting by itself,  so i suspect the frequency set pots (2) get some feedback / noise from the system, perhaps i need to decouple that TL494 pin 6 with a 0.1uF ceramic cap.

Video:  https://youtu.be/ugpEMkMDBDE


itsu
« Last Edit: 2021-05-28, 19:29:42 by Itsu »
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #698 on: 2021-05-28, 19:47:23 »
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Itsu,

Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-28, 17:59:26
At the moment its drifting by itself,  so i suspect the frequency set pots (2) get some feedback / noise from the system, perhaps i need to decouple that TL494 pin 6 with a 0.1uF ceramic cap.
Video:  https://youtu.be/ugpEMkMDBDE

It could be that system reacts on some Earth magnetic resonance. It could depend on day time and solar activity.

Here a video with traces from Ruslan and Sergey Panov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GO2ADSPbK0

Ruslan says that fish like signals start when particular amplitude reached.
May be you can try rise power supply voltage a little and see what happen.

Vasik

PS Do you think that different scopes produce similar looking artifacts ? :)

PPS 0.1uF on pin 6 is good idea
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #699 on: 2021-05-28, 20:40:30 »

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Ok,  still drifting now, even when rising the PS voltage.

I measured with the (green) current probe in the below screenshot the inductor current (purple and blue still on the grenade) and also the inductor current shows this (but different) modulation.


My cheap OWON scope does NOT show this modulation, see the picture below compared to the purple trace which is the same current transformer output as on the OWON scope in the background.


Anyway, i will add the 0.1uF cap on pin 6 and start tuning the inductor for 24.4KHz by adding 600nF of capacitance on its series cap.

Itsu
   
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