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OverUnity Research > Benches > AlienGrey > Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench
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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 309749 times)
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img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #125 on: 2021-04-15, 09:26:47 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-15, 05:57:42
Itsu,

so this 612K seems to be wave resonance and you will have to use shorter wire to get it higher.

Regards,
Vasik

Vasik,   


yes, makes sense, but i understood that Stalkers Grenade wire length was 45m, but i will reread that part.


Anyway, then the calculator used to match the LC resonance and standing wave frequencies is not accurate when coiled up as a Grenade, see my coil calculation below.

Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #126 on: 2021-04-15, 09:51:02 »

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Reading up on what Stalker is telling in his video on the Grenade (RK.pdf page 47/48), i understand he is using the below wire/bobbin parameters to calculate his LC/SW frequency.

So his wire suppose to be 45m long (35/70cm leads not sure this is extra or included), has the combined resonance point at 2.79MHz, has 171uH inductance, and 268 turns.

Dividing this 2.79MHz by the 910KHz from the FFT test, shows 3, so this 910KHz could be his 3th subharmonic.

Dividing my 2.46MHz combined frequency by my 612KHz gives 4, so no match there.

Attached the Stalker parameter calculation.


Itsu
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #127 on: 2021-04-15, 09:55:06 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-15, 09:26:47
Vasik,   
yes, makes sense, but i understood that Stalkers Grenade wire length was 45m, but i will reread that part.
Anyway, then the calculator used to match the LC resonance and standing wave frequencies is not accurate when coiled up as a Grenade, see my coil calculation below.
Itsu

Itsu,

This calculator works only for one layer coils.
Stalker use 2.5mm wire and thickness probably affects wave resonance in the gradient coil.

BTW Some people say that audio cable can be used. It is more expensive but easier to find and usually very high quality.

Coil leads should be included into calculation.

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  AlienGrey
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #128 on: 2021-04-15, 10:11:23 »
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Vasic Hi, and No i don’t want to re wind it, it's museum piece  ;D
As I have a IR21530 push pull driver card I know will drive that grenade and if i drive the inductor coil with a SG
it gives a nice dancing wave output.  ;D ;D

Any way Witch Sergey device do you mean Stalker or Alexis ?

Are you infarct referring to the Akula Ruslan thing on page 5 ? It's really important to keep to Tesla base 3 or 9
Frequency as Mup0head quite rightly quotes some frequencies are lethal, we tried one frequency in the double
Hz frequency and 2 of the guys were doubled up in agony and couldn't turn the dam thing off easily.

Any way besides the above witch build are you suggesting as i have another coil of wire here and did Itsu use
Any spacing material to line up the start and finish irregularities versus the wave-length please comment as this cable here is expensive here !


Regards SIL 
« Last Edit: 2021-04-15, 21:33:31 by AlienGrey »
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #129 on: 2021-04-15, 10:45:57 »
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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2021-04-15, 10:11:23
Vasic Hi No i don’t want to re wind it, it's museum piece  ;D

Any way Witch Sergey device do you mean Stalker or Alexis ?

Are you infarct referring to the Akula Ruslan thing on page 5 ? It's really important to keep to Tesla base 3 or 9
frequency as Mup0head quite rightly quotes some frequencies are lethal, we tried one frequency in the double
Hz frequency and 2 of the guys were doubled up in agony and couldn't turn the dam thing off easily.

Regards SIL

I refer to device described in rk.pdf

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #130 on: 2021-04-15, 12:22:35 »
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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2021-04-15, 10:11:23
Vasic Hi No i don’t want to re wind it, it's museum piece  ;D

Any way Witch Sergey device do you mean Stalker or Alexis ?

Are you infarct referring to the Akula Ruslan thing on page 5 ? It's really important to keep to Tesla base 3 or 9
frequency as Mup0head quite rightly quotes some frequencies are lethal, we tried one frequency in the double
Hz frequency and 2 of the guys were doubled up in agony and couldn't turn the dam thing off easily.

Regards SIL

AlienGrey,

If you interested in the subject of frequencies and harmonics you can read this
http://www.rhythmodynamics.com/rd_2007en.htm

Much more interesting than stare at military signs  ;)

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  AlienGrey
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #131 on: 2021-04-15, 14:24:27 »
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Military stuff, too much like organised cayouse for me.

do you mean this build ?
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #132 on: 2021-04-15, 14:51:35 »
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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2021-04-15, 14:24:27
Military stuff, too much like organised cayouse for me.

do you mean this build ?

Yes, this is Alexeev's version.
More people wind and measure, the easier will be understand what is going on there.
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #133 on: 2021-04-15, 15:08:38 »

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What is supposed to happen when the transmission line resonance intersects the LC resonance ?
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #134 on: 2021-04-15, 15:22:47 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-04-15, 15:08:38
What is supposed to happen when the transmission line resonance intersects the LC resonance ?

It is seen as Q factor increase.
Coil resonate better.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #135 on: 2021-04-15, 15:54:39 »

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I have maximized the layer 3 number of turns as to come as close to the 217uH as possible which resulted in an overall inductance of 225uH @ 100KHz.

FFT test still shows 612KHz as 1st peak when both ends shorted/grounded, or even when only shorted (not grounded).


Guess it has to do for now.


So i will continue with "the inductor" and:

Quote
You will need Tesla coil with 46m of 0.65mm wire and it can be tuned to 612KHz
and push pull frequency could be 612/30 = 20.4Khz.
That 25Mhz frequency you mentioned in the video should be used for antenna coil resonance.

Itsu
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #136 on: 2021-04-15, 17:02:20 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-15, 15:54:39
I have maximized the layer 3 number of turns as to come as close to the 217uH as possible which resulted in an overall inductance of 225uH @ 100KHz.

FFT test still shows 612KHz as 1st peak when both ends shorted/grounded, or even when only shorted (not grounded).

Guess it has to do for now.
So i will continue with "the inductor" and:

Itsu

Itsu,

just out of curiosity have you tried FFT without shorting coil ? Does it make any difference ?

Vasik
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #137 on: 2021-04-15, 18:04:55 »
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   Below, is one of Dr. Stiffler's videos about finding the PRIMARY resonant frequency, for his PSEC device.
   I would suppose that his method can also be used to look for the primary Spacial Resonant Frequency in our own area, as well.
   Vasik, what do think?  Your opinions are most appreciated.
 
   Check this out:   https://youtu.be/MtphlQ85yg4
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #138 on: 2021-04-15, 18:21:43 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-15, 17:02:20
Itsu,

just out of curiosity have you tried FFT without shorting coil ? Does it make any difference ?

Vasik

Vasik,   yes, there is a difference when not shorted/grounded, the first peak is at 1.2MHz now.

And with 1st peak i mean on the FFT display on the scope, but the SA only shows this single peak (either 612 or now 1.2MHz), meaning to me resonance.

Itsu
   
img  Centraflow
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #139 on: 2021-04-15, 18:47:09 »

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Buy me a beer
Hi Itsu

I do it like this on my toroids, it is very simple when you have a good SG and scope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjbK4LsOQRk

Regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #140 on: 2021-04-15, 19:36:22 »
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Itsu,

Thanks for the test.
I was browsing youtube and by accident found another video about gradient coil, may be you find it interesting (see attached document).

Vasik

PS found Stalker's coil design (on yandex disk), looks same as in the video.
« Last Edit: 2021-04-15, 20:16:44 by Vasik041 »
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #141 on: 2021-04-15, 20:22:29 »
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Itsu,

here Alexeev's video I was actually looking for
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuBYDSdk72s&list=PLK7gxeQv5qT44ZM5TVnBW534ogPJnrXjg&index=6
(I assume it is earlier version, bifilar coil used instead of gradient coil)

but what is important - notice effect of ground connection.
He says that he has length of ground wire 17-19m.

Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #142 on: 2021-04-15, 20:26:18 »

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Quote from: Centraflow on 2021-04-15, 18:47:09
Hi Itsu

I do it like this on my toroids, it is very simple when you have a good SG and scope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjbK4LsOQRk

Regards

Mike 8)

Mike,

thanks for the heads up and video, but we have measured the LC resonance of the coil in severall ways including the ringing methode in your video.

What we are after now is to measure/visualize the combination of LC and standing wave (transmission line) resonance.


Itsu
   
img  Centraflow
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #143 on: 2021-04-15, 20:32:51 »

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Buy me a beer
Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-15, 20:26:18
Mike,

thanks for the heads up and video, but we have measured the LC resonance of the coil in severall ways including the ringing methode in your video.

What we are after now is to measure/visualize the combination of LC and standing wave (transmission line) resonance.


Itsu

I will have to think about that :-\

Regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #144 on: 2021-04-15, 20:38:10 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-15, 19:36:22
Itsu,

Thanks for the test.
I was browsing youtube and by accident found another video about gradient coil, may be you find it interesting (see attached document).

Vasik

PS found Stalker's coil design (on yandex disk), looks same as in the video.

Vasik,

thanks for the additional video's/text, i measured my coil with my laser temp. meter, but no difference in the coil and/or compared to surroundings (19°C).

What i miss in the video's is where the probes are attached to show this 100% modulated (dancing wave) signal.

I suspect it is an artifact of the used scope / setup as i never am able to create such modulated (beat) signal (of course, it could be my grenade is not working properly yet).


What i do notice is that the used Grenades all have asymmetrical layers which i do not have.
Perhaps i need to use that too (same length/layer, not same number of turns/layer).
 
Yes, that ground influence is huge, so many parameters to take into account  :D


Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #145 on: 2021-04-15, 20:40:56 »

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Buy me a beer
Quick thought,

Your standing wave will be a % or another way ratio, of your forward wave as you know, or are you trying to measure a moving wave in reference to the original wave.

I will explain tomorrow when I'm fresh ;D

Regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #146 on: 2021-04-15, 20:45:45 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-15, 20:38:10
Vasik,

thanks for the additional video's/text, i measured my coil with my laser temp. meter, but no difference in the coil and/or compared to surroundings (19°C).

What i miss in the video's is where the probes are attached to show this 100% modulated (dancing wave) signal.

I suspect it is an artifact of the used scope / setup as i never am able to create such modulated (beat) signal (of course, it could be my grenade is not working properly yet).

What i do notice is that the used Grenades all have asymmetrical layers which i do not have.
Perhaps i need to use that too (same length/layer, not same number of turns/layer).
 
Yes, that ground influence is huge, so many parameters to take into account  :D

Itsu

Itsu,

I think in the video scope probe just laying on the table, close to the coil.
I am quite sure that beatings are not the scope artifact, you will be able see them only when you get LC and wave resonances really close.

Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #147 on: 2021-04-15, 21:01:52 »

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Vasik,

yes, i thought to see the probes are just underneath the Grenade.

I have seen those beat frequency signals (dansing wave) before from Jeg and Justawatt, but they could only make them at a certain scope setting (shallow memory depth etc.)

I was never able to copy them, even just now when using a ferrite bar inside the Grenade to lower the LC resonance in an attempt to better match up the LC and standing wave frequencies

Itsu 
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #148 on: 2021-04-15, 21:19:53 »

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Quote from: Centraflow on 2021-04-15, 20:40:56
Quick thought,

Your standing wave will be a % or another way ratio, of your forward wave as you know, or are you trying to measure a moving wave in reference to the original wave.

I will explain tomorrow when I'm fresh ;D

Regards

Mike 8)

Well,  the standing wave is the result of 2 moving waves (forward and reflected, see gif in AG his post #133 above).

I should have tailored the Grenade coil so that both the LC resonance frequency and that standing wave frequency are the same, but i fail to conclusively test that.

Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #149 on: 2021-04-16, 00:04:19 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-15, 15:22:47
It is seen as Q factor increase.
Coil resonate better.
Is it better than these methods for obtaining high Q which avoid the dominant dielectric losses of the wire's insulation ?
https://www.lessmiths.com/~kjsmith/crystal/coilq.shtml
https://www.w8ji.com/loading_inductors.htm
https://hamwaves.com/coils/en/

Anyway, I was not asking about intermediate effects but about the fundamental Modus Operandi that Stalker mentioned in these videos:
https://youtu.be/ObQFTTJimuI?t=1978
https://youtu.be/v6FrGTF731o?t=1646
   
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