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OverUnity Research > Benches > AlienGrey > Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench
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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 309107 times)
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img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #100 on: 2021-04-13, 21:40:11 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-13, 09:46:56
Itsu,

It was, it is in separate document, see attachment here
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg90634#msg90634

There is also simple example from Alexeev, but I don't have translation for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7h1G_dvOo&list=PLK7gxeQv5qT44ZM5TVnBW534ogPJnrXjg&index=11
Summary: use one of frequencies where you see "reverberance"

Regards,
Vasik



Quote
Here another tuning variant from Alexeev
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHzhZVFBNf8

Here he use generator based on CD4093, frequency close to 100Khz


Vasik,

thanks, i followed the gct.pdf and got similar FFT signals on the scope, but my first resonance frequency is much lower, 622KHz.

Both coil leads are connected to ground, 3 turns from the FG to the cold end, and 20Vpp sine wave.

I cannot get the sniffer coil with 2 anti-parallel leds to light up at this low 622KHz frequency, only at a higher peak at 2.2MHz it lights up, but not across the whole coil, only at 2 points, so i think i lack some power.

I will study the other video's to see if it (4093 @ 100KHz) is a better method, but i don't see where he puts his SA / scope leads yet.

Video here:  https://youtu.be/vykb0XXSQe4

Itsu 

   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #101 on: 2021-04-14, 06:14:54 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-13, 21:40:11
Vasik,
thanks, i followed the gct.pdf and got similar FFT signals on the scope, but my first resonance frequency is much lower, 622KHz.
Both coil leads are connected to ground, 3 turns from the FG to the cold end, and 20Vpp sine wave.
I cannot get the sniffer coil with 2 anti-parallel leds to light up at this low 622KHz frequency, only at a higher peak at 2.2MHz it lights up, but not across the whole coil, only at 2 points, so i think i lack some power.
I will study the other video's to see if it (4093 @ 100KHz) is a better method, but i don't see where he puts his SA / scope leads yet.
Video here:  https://youtu.be/vykb0XXSQe4
Itsu

Itsu,

I guess that 612Khz is a half of 1,12Mhz you saw earlier.
So why frequency is lower - we use thiner wire (1.9, not 2.5) and because of this coil needs to be longer (for resonances matching).
If you have 2.5mm wire, you could try make new coil with it or you can try continue with this coil.
You will need Tesla coil with 46m of 0.65mm wire and it can be tuned to 1.12Mhz (approx. 2 x 612)
and push pull frequency could be 612/30 = 20.4Khz.
That 25Mhz frequency you mentioned in the video should be used for antenna coil resonance.
If we lucky it will work with this coil :)
I will watch video about tuning one more time, may be there is something I didn't notice.

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #102 on: 2021-04-14, 09:29:34 »
Group: Guest
Some points about tuning after watching video again:
- length of ground wire need to be tuned to max amplitude in gradient coil
- while testing specter, scope is connected, not just probe placed into proximity of the coil, not sure if it makes any difference
- Tesla coil should be tuned close to gradient coil frequency, so not sure if 2x is ok

Sorry, not much help at this point from me.

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #103 on: 2021-04-14, 09:31:30 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-14, 06:14:54
Itsu,

I guess that 612Khz is a half of 1,12Mhz you saw earlier.
So why frequency is lower - we use thiner wire (1.9, not 2.5) and because of this coil needs to be longer (for resonances matching).
If you have 2.5mm wire, you could try make new coil with it or you can try continue with this coil.
You will need Tesla coil with 46m of 0.65mm wire and it can be tuned to 1.12Mhz (approx. 2 x 612)
and push pull frequency could be 612/30 = 20.4Khz.
That 25Mhz frequency you mentioned in the video should be used for antenna coil resonance.
If we lucky it will work with this coil :)
I will watch video about tuning one more time, may be there is something I didn't notice.

Regards,
Vasik


Hi Vasik,

Quote
I guess that 612Khz is a half of 1,12Mhz you saw earlier.

yes, i was thinking about that too, but in the Stalker video, i understand, they had a grenade with LC / SW frequency of 1.54MHz and there they found 910KHz as the first FFT peak.

I will shop for 2.5mm dia (= 5mm²) core wire, but that seems to be hard to find.


Anyway, "Tesla coil with 46m of 0.65mm wire and it can be tuned to 1.12Mhz (approx. 2 x 612)" means about 18cm length on 5cm dia tube.

"push pull frequency could be 612/30 = 20.4Khz" is also feasable.

25Mhz, and on, is the second part (green area in the PDF) of the FFT output, so it should be possible to build a coil resonating on that frequency, not sure if it will "override" the tesla coil it is attached to running on 1.12MHz, we will see.

Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #104 on: 2021-04-14, 09:39:30 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-14, 09:29:34
Some points about tuning after watching video again:
- length of ground wire need to be tuned to max amplitude in gradient coil
- while testing specter, scope is connected, not just probe placed into proximity of the coil, not sure if it makes any difference
- Tesla coil should be tuned close to gradient coil frequency, so not sure if 2x is ok

Sorry, not much help at this point from me.

Regards,
Vasik


- length of ground wire need to be tuned to max amplitude in gradient coil
Makes sense as it is part of the circuit, question is roughly how long.

- while testing specter, scope is connected, not just probe placed into proximity of the coil, not sure if it makes any difference
Spectrum analyser will load down (50 Ohm) the circuit much more, so needs carefull positioning.

- Tesla coil should be tuned close to gradient coil frequency, so not sure if 2x is ok
So in my case the 622KHz, which will be a much longer (~36cm) coil.


Great help, thanks   Itsu
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #105 on: 2021-04-14, 10:06:28 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-14, 09:39:30

- length of ground wire need to be tuned to max amplitude in gradient coil
Makes sense as it is part of the circuit, question is roughly how long.

- while testing specter, scope is connected, not just probe placed into proximity of the coil, not sure if it makes any difference
Spectrum analyser will load down (50 Ohm) the circuit much more, so needs carefull positioning.

- Tesla coil should be tuned close to gradient coil frequency, so not sure if 2x is ok
So in my case the 622KHz, which will be a much longer (~36cm) coil.


Great help, thanks   Itsu

Quote
- length of ground wire need to be tuned to max amplitude in gradient coil
Makes sense as it is part of the circuit, question is roughly how long.
could be 10 to 40 meters I think

Quote
- while testing specter, scope is connected, not just probe placed into proximity of the coil, not sure if it makes any difference
Spectrum analyser will load down (50 Ohm) the circuit much more, so needs carefull positioning.
May be just try with scope (high impedance probe). You can use needle to get thru wire insulation.
50ohm probably will distort waves in the coil.

I would suggest trying first 46m 1.12Mhz Tesla coil.
I think antenna coil will be visible to Tesla as a "top capacitance"

Regards,
Vasik

PS about main frequency, perhaps you can try rearrange some reverse turns, so inductance will be close to calculated, this could have significant impact on the resonance frequency as well.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #106 on: 2021-04-14, 13:01:56 »

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OK,  i will rearrange some turns on the 5th and 6th layers to see how it impacts the induction and try to get it to the 217uH of the long coil.



Concerning the 2 peaks of the sniffer leds at 2.120Mhz inside the (grounded at both sides) Grenade coil, i was wondering If that could be the 3th subharmonic of the full wave frequency of the 47m long wire.

Full wave on a 47m wire calculates (https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/wavelength-to-frequency) to be 6.378MHz, so divided by 3 is 2.126MHz.

Itsu
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #107 on: 2021-04-14, 13:27:45 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-14, 13:01:56
Concerning the 2 peaks of the sniffer leds at 2.120Mhz inside the (grounded at both sides) Grenade coil, i was wondering If that could be the 3th subharmonic of the full wave frequency of the 47m long wire.

Full wave on a 47m wire calculates (https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/wavelength-to-frequency) to be 6.378MHz, so divided by 3 is 2.126MHz.

It could be, but can't say for sure because of such complex winding.
   
img  poynt99
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #108 on: 2021-04-14, 13:30:40 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-13, 15:02:55
To understand how these systems works please check
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=361.msg90198#msg90198

Regards,
Vasik
I don't have time to read through the plethora of information, unfortunately (I'm busy with my own projects, and a project here). I was hoping and assumed anyone working on this technology for years would be able to summarize the operation in a couple short paragraphs. Well, that's what I would do if asked.
 :)


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #109 on: 2021-04-14, 13:36:58 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2021-04-14, 13:30:40
I don't have time to read through the plethora of information, unfortunately (I'm busy with my own projects, and a project here). I was hoping and assumed anyone working on this technology for years would be able to summarize the operation in a couple short paragraphs. Well, that's what I would do if asked.
 :)

Well, if 8 pages mostly with pictures is too long... I am sorry, can't make it shorter :)

If I say "moving charges without using magnetic field" probably does not explain much.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #110 on: 2021-04-14, 15:46:41 »

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Reducing the layer 6 coil turns from 16 to 13 reduces the total inductance from 232uH to 215uH, but leaving an extra 90cm of connection lead at the hot end.

The FFT test however does not seem to be influenced much, still first peak at 612KHz.

Removing the whole layer 6 (so long extra lead), i get 164uH, but further removing turns from layer 5 also further reduces the inductance.

After changing the layers 5/6 from 16/16 turns, to 18/15 i again end up with 232uH @ 100KHz.

So not sure how to reduce the overall inductance while maintaining the 47m length.

I will further fiddle around with the layers 5/6 relationship.

Itsu
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #111 on: 2021-04-14, 16:07:34 »
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   Wow, my head is already spinning...

   Just as a comparison, my simple Kacher runs best at around 950KHz to 1.1MHz.  It is somewhat controlable if ferrite is used in the core. But, the core gets too hot with ferrite inside after a while.
   My grenade frequency is around 15KHz.  The TL494 circuit is tuned to run from 13KHz and higher, but not lower in frequency than that.
   Here's what it looks like, picture below.
   And here is the last video that I made about a year ago. https://youtu.be/9UxOvZatzKY
   Any ideas are welcome.

   NickZ

   
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #112 on: 2021-04-14, 16:32:04 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-14, 15:46:41
Reducing the layer 6 coil turns from 16 to 13 reduces the total inductance from 232uH to 215uH, but leaving an extra 90cm of connection lead at the hot end.
The FFT test however does not seem to be influenced much, still first peak at 612KHz.
Removing the whole layer 6 (so long extra lead), i get 164uH, but further removing turns from layer 5 also further reduces the inductance.
After changing the layers 5/6 from 16/16 turns, to 18/15 i again end up with 232uH @ 100KHz.
So not sure how to reduce the overall inductance while maintaining the 47m length.
I will further fiddle around with the layers 5/6 relationship.
Itsu

Itsu,

I think if moving turns on 4/5/6 layers closer to the middle of the coil does not help
you need to add turns to 3rd layer (first reverse layer)

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #113 on: 2021-04-14, 16:33:57 »
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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-04-14, 16:07:34
   My grenade frequency is around 15KHz.

Hi Nick,

I am wondering how you measured your gradient coil, 15KHz sounds quite too low ?

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #114 on: 2021-04-14, 16:50:46 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-14, 16:32:04
Itsu,

I think if moving turns on 4/5/6 layers closer to the middle of the coil does not help
you need to add turns to 3rd layer (first reverse layer)

Regards,
Vasik

Vasik,  yes i agree,

Reading the RK.pdf at page 49 bottom it says:

usually third layer, when we wound, decrease the inductance
below calculated, the fourth layer raises it smoothly
5th layer rise a little faster,
and 6th layer is also smooth raises the inductance



So as i found out, both 5th and 6th layers will only increase inductance when adding turns, as does layer 4.

So the mechanism to decrease the inductance by adding turns is in the 3th layer coil.

I will add a few turns on layer 3 and equally divide the rest of the wire over layers 4, 5 and 6.


Itsu
   
img  NickZ
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #115 on: 2021-04-14, 16:51:03 »
Group: Guest
   Vasik:
   Actually you're right now that you mention it, my last grenade output frequency is more like around 19Khz. This can change depending on the tuning caps. It has been a while since I last worked on it, so it's easy to forget some details.
   I did try to make it self run, using the PS that you see in the picture as part of the feed back circuit to the input side, and two 12v, 7ah batteries.
No luck, but close to it , at times. This device does not make for easy pickings.

   Nick Zec
   
img  poynt99
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #116 on: 2021-04-14, 18:53:14 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-14, 13:36:58
Well, if 8 pages mostly with pictures is too long... I am sorry, can't make it shorter :)

If I say "moving charges without using magnetic field" probably does not explain much.

Your statement summarizes part of what is written in the document. btw, who is the author?

At any rate, I didn't find the document all that enlightening, and seemed speculative.

Cheers.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #117 on: 2021-04-14, 18:55:40 »
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Itsu,

one more radical thing you can try if you like - rewind whole coil like this, it is a "version 2" winding
actually recommenced by Sergey Stalker (version 1 I think was Alexeev's version).

Difference is that after each layer you return back, so all layer winded in same direction (e.g. left to right)

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #118 on: 2021-04-14, 18:57:21 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2021-04-14, 18:53:14
Your statement summarizes part of what is written in the document. btw, who is the author?

At any rate, I didn't find the document all that enlightening, and seemed speculative.

Cheers.

Well, author prefer remain anonymous :)
Read it one more time after few years if you like or just forget about it.
   
img  partzman
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #119 on: 2021-04-14, 20:29:56 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-14, 18:55:40
Itsu,

one more radical thing you can try if you like - rewind whole coil like this, it is a "version 2" winding
actually recommenced by Sergey Stalker (version 1 I think was Alexeev's version).

Difference is that after each layer you return back, so all layer winded in same direction (e.g. left to right)

Regards,
Vasik

Vasik,

I have never attempted a replication of these devices utilizing the "grenade" type of coil assembly but it seems to me that Alexeev's version would provide all boost between the various windings that are all wound in the same direction.  There would of course be different coupling factors between the windings but if the grenade as Itsu is replicating has some boost, some buck windings, isn't this necessary to match LC with wavelength?

Is the LC of the grenade self resonance?

regards,
Pm
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #120 on: 2021-04-14, 20:38:18 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: partzman on 2021-04-14, 20:29:56
Vasik,

I have never attempted a replication of these devices utilizing the "grenade" type of coil assembly but it seems to me that Alexeev's version would provide all boost between the various windings that are all wound in the same direction.  There would of course be different coupling factors between the windings but if the grenade as Itsu is replicating has some boost, some buck windings, isn't this necessary to match LC with wavelength?

Is the LC of the grenade self resonance?

regards,
Pm

Hi Pm,

I probably was not clear.
Version 2 still has reverse layers 3-6.
Let say layer 1 and 2 wound CW and left to right, then layers 3-6 wound CCW and right to left.
Before winding next layer wire goes back where previous layer started (and then it will be under next layer).

Yes, original inductance need to be maintained in version 2 also.

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  Itsu
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #121 on: 2021-04-14, 21:40:08 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-04-14, 18:55:40
Itsu,

one more radical thing you can try if you like - rewind whole coil like this, it is a "version 2" winding
actually recommenced by Sergey Stalker (version 1 I think was Alexeev's version).

Difference is that after each layer you return back, so all layer winded in same direction (e.g. left to right)

Regards,
Vasik

Vasik,

yes i had seen that option in one of the video's, i will keep it in mind.



For the time being i have added some more turns to layer 3 and divided the rest of the layers equally, and found the overall inductance now to be 210uH, so 7uH lower as when it was a single long coil (217uH) and 22uH lower as before (232uH).

But the FFT display still shows same 612KHz as first peak.

Will try tomorrow to even get closer to the 217uH @ 100KHz.

Itsu
 
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #122 on: 2021-04-15, 05:57:42 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Itsu on 2021-04-14, 21:40:08
Vasik,
yes i had seen that option in one of the video's, i will keep it in mind.

For the time being i have added some more turns to layer 3 and divided the rest of the layers equally, and found the overall inductance now to be 210uH, so 7uH lower as when it was a single long coil (217uH) and 22uH lower as before (232uH).

But the FFT display still shows same 612KHz as first peak.
Will try tomorrow to even get closer to the 217uH @ 100KHz.

Itsu

Itsu,

so this 612K seems to be wave resonance and you will have to use shorter wire to get it higher.

Regards,
Vasik
   
img  AlienGrey
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #123 on: 2021-04-15, 07:55:57 »
Group: Guest
Hi there Itsu and Vasik, this is a slight veer off on a vector but might just be relavent.

Re the Stalker Grenade on his PDF site, I built a copy of his design some 3 or four years ago, after testing and playing
ie adding caps across the 37.5mtr winding ect and pumping it with my SG all I ever got was inconsistencies ! >:-)

Any way another guy I keep in touch with suggested I try adding a 1 turn winding at the open end of the bottom 2 layers
so I did and connected my SG and still inconsistencies with 2 large peeks and 2 week ones in the midle that had no mathematical
link between them as Mupohead calls them IE 2.840 Mhz, 1.558 attenuated and 818 and some other one almost flat  C.C

Then I added a garden earth dipole cable to the setup then I got 3274400hz, 1637200hz attenuated and 818600hz
now your going to say those frequencies are too high and are out of range of the LT494 device well may be but it has shown me
that the 818 is related to the LF wave and the 3.274Mhz the upper HF driver, now there is the 1673khz frequency what do you think that ties into ?
Yeah could it be the harmonic?

SIL
« Last Edit: 2021-04-15, 21:26:45 by AlienGrey »
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #124 on: 2021-04-15, 08:34:04 »
Group: Guest
Hi AlienGrey,

May be you can try rewind your coil according to Sergey's instructions.
Then we could compare results. It's difficult to make conclusions based on one coil.

Regards,
Vasik
   
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