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Author Topic: Raymondslab new "no drag" device  (Read 8322 times)
Group: Experimentalist
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Hi guys,

Did a very quick test of Raymonds "no drag"

It's difficult to correctly verify since it's not just "no drag" but also "no output" ... you're going to need a very strong magnet or very high speed oscillations to see enough output power to correctly measure it against the prime movers input power.
Probably why Raymond only used LED's as loads.
I can't tell if there's anything special until I get the output closer to 1 watt.

Link to my quick test: https://youtu.be/urJMGK0W1K8

Regards
Luc

Hats off Luc, a perfect test bed! I agree with your conclusions.

One of my ideas I will mention is, you could double your output with a magnet of both sides of the coil LOL

Ron
   
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Hats off Luc, a perfect test bed! I agree with your conclusions.

One of my ideas I will mention is, you could double your output with a magnet of both sides of the coil LOL

Ron

Thanks Ron,

Yes, a magnet on each side would give a better output.
I made another test with a 3 inch x 1 inch thick N52 Neo and still the output is low but enough to demonstrate Lenz is there.

Video demo: https://youtu.be/Mxu8pxc_bQU

Regards
Luc
   

Group: Tinkerer
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Excellent work guys!

Does change in magnet orientation have an effect?


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 841
Thank you for the encouragement, second attempt underway, give me a day or two.

Ron

OK, second version, pretty much confirms what Luc has shown.

Setup on the RV. Double magnet stations of 19 mm X 25 mm neo's
Coil core 18mm X 24mm, coil 19mm wide, 6.7 ohms and 15.3 mH

Deliberate single diode output as connected one way gives .83 volts but reversing the coil leads gives 1.25 volts over a 20 ohm load. Unfortunately the RV counts up and down from 36 watts to 42 watts in a slow repeating pattern whether the coilis shorted, open, or on the 20 ohm load. So the output is so low as to make Lenz unmeasurable.

This was with a coil magnet ratio of 1:1. Thinking perhaps the bigger and longer the coil was I could double the output... Used a 2.25 inch long coil of 15 ohms and 135 mH... the voltage went from 1.25 to 1.52 volts (20 ohm load) [.9 ohm coil reversed]

So that wasn't an answer! End of experiment

Ron

edit: reversing the magnet polarity gives the same result as reversing the coil leads

   
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Hi Ron,

I was under the impression what Raymond was doing differently (then a conventional gen coil) was his coil was stroked (or vibrated) withing the surface of the magnet (not exiting and re-entering the magnet)
It looks to me that you're using rotating magnets. Is this what you're doing?... if so, then I wouldn't think that replicates what he was doing?

Kind regards
Luc
   
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Posts: 841
Hi Ron,

I was under the impression what Raymond was doing differently (then a conventional gen coil) was his coil was stroked (or vibrated) withing the surface of the magnet (not exiting and re-entering the magnet)
It looks to me that you're using rotating magnets. Is this what you're doing?... if so, then I wouldn't think that replicates what he was doing?

Kind regards
Luc

Yes Luc, I explained from the begining, I thought, that I was taking a differnt approach in an effort to use the principle but gain more output. The rotation was to eliminate the waste motion of attempting to move a heavy coil or magnet back and forth.

Cheers, Ron
   
Group: Experimentalist
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Correct me if I am wrong but is not Raymond's experiment merely an inefficient speaker motor?

Ron

   
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Yes, I thought of that last night. That's basically what he has but I think he's only using one pole face of the magnet.

If he retested with a signal generator, amplifier and speaker to oscillate his coil he could get to higher frequencies instead of his inefficient mechanical system but it would be difficult to measure the input power of the amplifier once his coil is under load.

The other problem is the back and forth stroke distance ideally should stay the same but I don't think that will happen when you raise the frequency without increasing the amplitude which = more power in.

Regards
Luc
   

Group: Mad Scientist
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Correct me if I am wrong but is not Raymond's experiment merely an inefficient speaker motor?

Ron

Actually its not.  The speaker magnet motor assy concentrates the magnets field to 'cut' the coil as it moves. In rays setup, the fields more likely on axis with the coil.

Would be interesting to know the coil makeup. Needs testing. The coil may be high turns for 2 'red' leds to affect the outcome of the motors work of moving all that around.

Mags
   
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Yes, I thought of that last night. That's basically what he has but I think he's only using one pole face of the magnet.

If he retested with a signal generator, amplifier and speaker to oscillate his coil he could get to higher frequencies instead of his inefficient mechanical system but it would be difficult to measure the input power of the amplifier once his coil is under load.

The other problem is the back and forth stroke distance ideally should stay the same but I don't think that will happen when you raise the frequency without increasing the amplitude which = more power in.

Regards
Luc

Looks like both both to me?
Ron

   
Group: Experimentalist
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Actually its not.  The speaker magnet motor assy concentrates the magnets field to 'cut' the coil as it moves. In rays setup, the fields more likely on axis with the coil.

Would be interesting to know the coil makeup. Needs testing. The coil may be high turns for 2 'red' leds to affect the outcome of the motors work of moving all that around.

Mags

All that is lacking in Raymond's is the attraction to the south pole, being replaced by an attraction to the core.

a speaker motor is just a continuous row of magnets circling the coil/core

What I was attempting to show was that a speaker is not an OU device... why should Raymond's, which is basically the same operating principle, be OU?

Ron
   
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A 1 inch wide x 2 inch long x 3/4 inch thick Neo magnet is a very popular size and most always magnetized through thickness N-S but if Ray's magnet is really magnetized as he wrote on his diagram, then he's using a diametrically magnetized version (not widely available)
Also, if his coil really is 350 Ohms then it's a very high turn coil of thin wire which = high Inductance which is not like a speaker voice coil.
My guess is the coil is an air coil (no core)

Without more information from Raymond It's unclear what is really taking place and how he concluded it's assisting once under load.
I wonder if Chet could try contacting him to see if he would be willing to participate at this topic?

Regards
Luc

   
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Hi guy's

I now see my confusion of the magnet used in Raymond's device thanks to ronee.

Raymond's drawing of the magnet (top view) is out of proportion. The size he drew looks like 1" x 2" side of the magnet but it's the 3/4" x 1" top of a standard magnet turned sideways.
That now explains my confusion why I thought he was using a diametrically magnetized magnet.
No need to bother him now.

Thanks ronee
Regards
Luc
   
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Decided to be fair and do another test with a magnet turned sideways so coil has both North and South.
However, output is even less so there's no way to confirm if Lenz is present once under load.

Link to video demo: https://youtu.be/iijuXV8GppA

Regards
Luc
   

Group: Mad Scientist
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Posts: 549
All that is lacking in Raymond's is the attraction to the south pole, being replaced by an attraction to the core.

a speaker motor is just a continuous row of magnets circling the coil/core

What I was attempting to show was that a speaker is not an OU device... why should Raymond's, which is basically the same operating principle, be OU?

Ron
   

Group: Mad Scientist
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Posts: 549
Its actually like this in the pic below, unless you alter the magnetic assy.

Mags
   

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Correct me if I am wrong but is not Raymond's experiment merely an inefficient speaker motor?

Ron

the voice coil is moving in a very thin gap of concentrated flux. The center pole piece and the upper plate guide the magnets field to the gap, which directs the flux across the windings all the way around.

Mags
   
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the voice coil is moving in a very thin gap of concentrated flux. The center pole piece and the upper plate guide the magnets field to the gap, which directs the flux across the windings all the way around.

Mags

Yep, the speaker is well designed and very efficient, not like Raymond's single sided approach, very inefficient.

One can use a speaker as a generator also... like in this balancing machine example.

Ron

   
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the voice coil is moving in a very thin gap of concentrated flux. The center pole piece and the upper plate guide the magnets field to the gap, which directs the flux across the windings all the way around.

Mags

Ah yes, a perfect description of logical improvements to Raymond's device.

The first improvement would be to add one more magnet to the outher side of the coil for a slight increase in output.

The next step would be to add a magnet all the way around, like in the attachment mockup.

The final improvement would then be to put on a backing plate and fasten the core to it, voila a speaker generator.

Ron

   

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Yess that is more like what he is doing, and is a more concentrated field.  like this below is another way...

Mags
   

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If it does work the way he is interpreting it, then there is only a short window in which the coil moves back and forth, avoiding moving into the regions where the field is more cutting the coil similar to the way a speaker motor is designed to work.

Mags
   
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Hi everyone,

I have now fully tested Raymondslab "no drag" generator.

Demo video: https://youtu.be/Y0lyezE-LVE

I later (after video demo) added the scopes current probe to get math power data.
The output power to the 24 LED was calculated to be around 180 to 200 mW.
The prime mover input power increased (once under load) by around 10mA x 28V = 280mw -180mW = 100mW under unity.

We can now be sure this one is put to bed without any doubt.

Regards
Luc
   

Group: Mad Scientist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 549
Hi everyone,

I have now fully tested Raymondslab "no drag" generator.

Demo video: https://youtu.be/Y0lyezE-LVE

I later (after video demo) added the scopes current probe to get math power data.
The output power to the 24 LED was calculated to be around 180 to 200 mW.
The prime mover input power increased (once under load) by around 10mA x 28V = 280mw -180mW = 100mW under unity.

We can now be sure this one is put to bed without any doubt.

Regards
Luc
Nice work.  I have my spring pendulum to try something more similar to Rays.  The pendulum will be driven by a coil and magnet to a resonant state, and then load up a moving coil instead of moving the magnet in. The reasoning is the same as yours Luc. We should see the same effect only loading and unloading the moving coil if the claim is correct, with no difference whether the magnet was close or far. Rays test lacks a few things such as that.

Mags
   
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Thanks Mags,

So, do you think Raymond's mechanical oscillation frequency is the same as his coils resonant frequency?
That's the only thing I can't check.
The coil would need an insane amount of turns (with no cap) to resonate at the low mechanical frequency!
Do you think that's why his coils dc resistance is 350 Ohms?


Good luck and report what you find good or bad.

Regards
Luc
   

Group: Mad Scientist
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Posts: 549
Thanks Mags,

So, do you think Raymond's mechanical oscillation frequency is the same as his coils resonant frequency?
That's the only thing I can't check.
The coil would need an insane amount of turns (with no cap) to resonate at the low mechanical frequency!
Do you think that's why his coils dc resistance is 350 Ohms?


Good luck and report what you find good or bad.

Regards
Luc

When I did some stuff with pulse motors that spun up to the resonant freq of the coil(and cap. large coil.) the rotor wanted to stick at that rpm. If you drive the rotor past that point, then it will accelerate onward.Had to deal with reed switches reaching their resonance also. So changing the cap would allow me to see that the LC held the rotor to a locked freq of rotation. As long as the LC freq is steady, so will the rpms be steady. Well pretty much depending on load characteristics.

I was thinking earlier that the lobing motor cam axial and the physical connection to the coil were hopefully of decent tolerance and strong enough for all of that physical happening going on, but there may be discrepancies we cant see from afar. His leds, if connected parallel but opposing polarity, say red led, 20ma, 2v at full power, then maybe a 100ohm coil and maybe 40mw P-P?  . If in same polarity, 80mw . If in series then maybe a 200ohm coil, 80mw.  Just possible guess. He wasnt smoking leds.
So we have to think, is 80mw enough to affect that moving system enough to cause what is happening? More info to clarify if there is any magnetic hardware near the coil on the arm.
Would need to try different motor rpms and test to eliminate any resonant effects that may be causing the result. Mike may be right. cant say unless its made the way the guy set it up, or we will need to try with and without mechanical resonance.

Has anyone asked him to come to the forum?

Mags


   
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