The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler

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verpies

Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #75 on: 2025-03-16, 23:07:51 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-16, 20:13:45

I've prepared a bit of material to start experimenting around this idea, ...

Pure iron or steel ?

F6FLT

Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #76 on: 2025-03-17, 10:57:31 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2025-03-16, 23:07:51

Pure iron or steel ?

That's the big question. I tried with a pure iron bar, but it was too small (4cm). I didn't notice anything special.
If the abnormal hall effect is at work, steel seems interesting because of the “impurities” (Cr, NI), e.g. rolled 304, which is partly ferromagnetic and is even sold in very thin 0.01 mm sheets.

Using the same material as Coler seems a priori preferable. But it all depends on what you want to test: something as similar as possible to Coler's device, or something in line with an assumption you've made about the main principle you think is at work? The first point has already been made, without success. So I'm leaning towards the second, highlighting an anomalous hall effect and seeing what happens with crossed magnetic fields.

First idea I'd like to test.
In AHE by skew scattering, electrons are deflected differently according to their spin, which then leads to a different deflection by the classical hall effect. The magnetic field in the material results from a longitudinal component and a transverse component linked to the conductors running along the magnetic core. As a result, the resulting field makes an angle, e.g. of 45°, with the axis of the current in the material. It is therefore possible that the electrons of one of the two spins, e.g. spin up, will be deflected in the same direction as the electrical flow, thus reinforcing it, while the electrons of spin down will be deflected transversely, with no effect on the current. The excess energy of the current's spin-up electrons could be taken up by an energy deficit in the static configuration trapping the spin-down electrons.
Of course, many questions remain, such as how the system can be self-sustaining (Maxwell's demon?...).

---------------------------

"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

verpies	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #77 on: 2025-03-17, 11:20:27 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-17, 10:57:31 ...or something in line with an assumption you've made about the main principle you think is at work? I did not make an assumption. I am just following Smudge's lead described here. Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-17, 10:57:31 That's the big question. I tried with a pure iron bar, but it was too small (4cm). Do you think that the interplay between a larger bar size and the skin effect will allow a lower frequency to manifest itself?

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #78 on: 2025-03-17, 15:29:30 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Quote from: verpies on 2025-03-17, 11:20:27 I did not make an assumption. I am just following Smudge's lead described here. I didn't assume you made an assumption. For my part, I can't follow Smudge's lead, disagreeing with this: “The increase in kinetic energy is supplied from the source of the magnetic field.” - A magnetic field supplies no energy except when it collapses - There is no increase in kinetic energy due to the field. The well-known reason is that the force deflecting the charge is at 90° to the speed vector, and therefore does no work (in the reference frame of the magnetic field source). The magnetic force's change in velocity direction does not imply a change of its modulus. As kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity modulus, it doesn't change either. A gain in kinetic energy can only be indirectly linked to the magnetic force (my hypothesis above assumes this). Quote Do you think that the interplay between a larger bar size and the skin effect will allow a lower frequency to manifest itself? I don't really know. It's possible. I just wanted to increase the dimensions of my setup, thinking it would make it easier to detect weak anomalies. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #79 on: 2025-03-18, 10:18:25 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Quote from: verpies on 2025-03-17, 11:20:27 ... Do you think that [...] the skin effect will allow a lower frequency to manifest itself? This comment caught my attention because I had completely forgotten about the skin effect in the context of Coler. I've just read up on the values that can be expected for iron, at frequencies of the order of 100 KHz. This is about 12 times greater than in copper (~0.016 mm). But to my amazement, I discovered that in steel 316, the skin effect is considerably weaker: around 85 times weaker than in iron, and even almost 7 times weaker than in copper (~1.4 mm)! Steel's pb seems complex, depending on its nature, and e.g. mild steel, with a higher or lower skin effect than copper, depending on frequency. This is further food for thought. The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Smudge

Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #80 on: 2025-03-19, 08:11:46 »

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Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-17, 15:29:30

The well-known reason is that the force deflecting the charge is at 90° to the speed vector, and therefore does no work.

Yes, such a force has been called "fictional" because it does no work. And their are examples in a purely mechanical world where that applies, like centrifugal force and Coreolis force. But this only applies to fixed-state conditions where nothing changes with respect to time. Take Coreolis force for example, there are many videos of people doing what Laithwaite did in his infamous televised Royal Society lecture where he lifted a heavy weight against gravity (the weight being a spinning wheel on the end of a rod). That is clear evidence of the Coreolis "fictional" force doing work. Even the Hall effect shows this work relationship, the Corbino disc has increased resistance hence demands more power from its current source as the magnetic field slowly increases. Note the word "slowly". What happens if the magnetic field changes by a tiny amount but very rapidly? When you look into this that rapid change introduces an electric field vortex that induces a voltage into the curved conduction path whose curvature hasn't changed. When you do the sums it seems this induced voltage can not only reduce the apparent resistance of the disc but even take it negative for the short duration of the magnetic field pulse. Where then does the energy returned to the current source during the pulse come from? Has that ever been explored? A conduction electron passing close to a Fe atom is not under fixed-state conditions, it is passing through an extremely non-uniform magnetic field, so I challenge the conventional view on fictional forces in an attempt to answer that question.

Smudge

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #81 on: 2025-03-19, 09:22:34 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	@Smudge Fictitious forces are pseudo-forces that appear only in non-inertial reference frames and do not exist in an inertial reference frame. The Coriolis force is of this type. It has absolutely nothing to do with the magnetic force F=q.vxB, which is a real force felt by a charge moving in a magnetic field, even when it is moving at constant speed, i.e. when its frame of reference is inertial. This force is not fictitious, it's real as seen by the charge, since in its frame of reference, what it sees is an electric field, not a magnetic field, so a force F=q.E, but always at 90° to its speed, so it's not working. When the magnetic field varies, the only possible exchange of energy with it concerns that contained in its volume, of density B²/µ, energy taken from the field when it collapses, or supplied to the field when it builds up. So, over a cycle, the energy balance is zero, whether the field varies over time or not. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #82 on: 2025-03-19, 09:49:55 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	The magnetic force is only one way of looking at the electric force when electrons are moving, because then, due to the relativistic effect, the coulombic field is no longer seen of spherical symmetry. To claim that the magnetic field provides energy would be tantamount to saying that the electrons' coulombic field is depleted, i.e. that their charge has diminished, which remains to be demonstrated since electrons with variable charge have never been seen. Energy is supplied solely by what sets one charge in motion relative to another, and what tends to maintain this motion, and thus modifies the 4D topology of the Coulomb fields mutually viewed by the charges. Since energy depends on the frame of reference, it is perfectly understandable that it arises from the change of frame of reference linked to the setting in motion of the charges. As far as Coler is concerned, it's precisely the facts that need to be demonstrated. We can certainly imagine theoretical hypotheses to experiment with setups, but not hypotheses that are opposed to everything we already know and incompatible with what we've always observed. Imagining cooler laws of nature that don't correspond to what we observe doesn't help us move forward. To move forward, we have to conform to the sad reality of the laws, to use them, and we don't need any phantasmagorical theories until we have new facts to explain. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #83 on: 2025-03-19, 14:07:21 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Initially, I'm simply trying to demonstrate the Hall effect. I have a thin steel plate along which I pass a current of up to 5A. Two transverse connection points are connected to a voltmeter capable of discriminating a few µV (HP3468A). Well... nothing! I've replaced the neodymium magnet I was originally using with Ruhmkorff's coil (see photo), also with a 5A current, and still nothing! It's a bad start... Any idea what's wrong? ------------------------ The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler miseEnEvidenceEffetHall.jpg (371.7 kB, 1102x929 - viewed 284 times.) --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

verpies	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #84 on: 2025-03-19, 17:19:37 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Any difference on switching the axes of the 5A current and the voltage sensing wires ?

gyula

Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #85 on: 2025-03-19, 22:01:54 »

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Here is the inventor, Edwin Hall description on his experimental setup back then: https://www.jstor.org/stable/2369245

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #86 on: 2025-03-20, 07:52:45 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Quote from: verpies on 2025-03-19, 17:19:37 Any difference on switching the axes of the 5A current and the voltage sensing wires ? No difference. The same with copper plate and zinc plated iron plate. No error in connecting the coils. « Last Edit: 2025-03-20, 10:33:33 by F6FLT » --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

verpies	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #87 on: 2025-03-20, 14:55:50 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-20, 07:52:45 The same with copper plate Copper did not work for Edwin Hall either ...but gold leaf worked.

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #88 on: 2025-03-20, 16:03:28 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Quote from: verpies on 2025-03-20, 14:55:50 Copper did not work for Edwin Hall either ...but gold leaf worked. Maybe I'll try with this 1865 gold coin called “Napoleon” (but I'm afraid I'll damage it). Will it be Austerlitz or Waterloo? Note to Englishmen: if I succeed, the victory is "Austerlitz", not Waterloo! ------------------------ The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler napoleon.jpg (183.73 kB, 838x828 - viewed 79 times.) --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

chief kolbacict

Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #89 on: 2025-03-20, 18:13:59 »

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How do you manage to balance your rectangle so that there are zero microvolts on the output faces ?
Whereas there is five ampere current nearby. A fraction of a millimeter of displacement, and there will be a parasitic voltage on the signal terminals of tens of microvolts.

Smudge	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #90 on: 2025-03-21, 08:33:39 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1961	Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-19, 09:22:34 @Smudge It has absolutely nothing to do with the magnetic force F=q.vxB, which is a real force felt by a charge moving in a magnetic field, even when it is moving at constant speed, i.e. when its frame of reference is inertial. This force is not fictitious, it's real as seen by the charge, since in its frame of reference, what it sees is an electric field, not a magnetic field, so a force F=q.E, but always at 90° to its speed, so it's not working. So the force on conduction electrons moving along a conductor at right angles to a magnetic field can not do work??!!!

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #91 on: 2025-03-21, 09:49:16 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Quote from: Smudge on 2025-03-21, 08:33:39 So the force on conduction electrons moving along a conductor at right angles to a magnetic field can not do work??!!! Wrong question. No negative, general and definitive conclusion can be drawn from any experiment. The only possible conclusion here is: “there is no Hall voltage measurable with the means used in this experiment”. But I haven't said my last word... The conclusion is that, most probably, the Hall voltage is much lower than I thought. If anyone can give me the order of magnitude to expect in my context, I'd love to hear it. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #92 on: 2025-03-21, 10:00:11 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2025-03-20, 18:13:59 ... How do you manage to balance your rectangle so that there are zero microvolts on the output faces ? Whereas there is five ampere current nearby. A fraction of a millimeter of displacement, and there will be a parasitic voltage on the signal terminals of tens of microvolts. A wise remark, as this point is indeed important. Note that the voltage is only 0.5V across the steel sample when the current is 5A. I switch off the power supply to the coils. I establish the 5A current in the sample. I move one of the voltmeter contact points to obtain a minimum voltage. It's of the order of a few tens of µV. I then establish the current in the coils and see if the measured voltage changes. Unfortunately, it doesn't. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #93 on: 2025-03-21, 10:22:19 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	I've just (maybe) found the reason on Google, following Verpies' remark on Hall's gold leaf experiment: “The Hall voltage is proportional to the magnetic field (B), current (I), and Hall coefficient (RH) and depends inversely on the thickness (t).” Even thin, my steel strip is considerably thicker than gold leaf. I haven't had time to look it up yet, but I wonder why increasing thickness reduces Hall voltage. I'll look into it. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Smudge	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #94 on: 2025-03-21, 10:27:25 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1961	Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-21, 09:49:16 Wrong question. No negative, general and definitive conclusion can be drawn from any experiment. This wasn't a question about your experiment. It was about your response to my paper. Further to my previous post I would point out that when the conductor moves (the Lorentz force doing work) the velocity of the conduction electrons is now the vector sum of drift velocity plus conductor velocity which by Pythagorus is now greater than their intitial drift velocity, which is what I say in my paper. I reason that a conduction electron hurling past a Fe atom at Fermi velocity endures a brief magnetic field pulse that isn't sufficient to allow the electron to reach its cyclotron radius where the "no work" rule applies. Smudge

verpies	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #95 on: 2025-03-21, 10:28:51 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	From a paper I can't find now: The thinner the sheet, the more pronounced the effect. Apparently allowing the conduction electrons the freedom to wiggle across the thickness of the plate spoils the effect. From my memory: there were also non-geometric methods of confining the electrons to 2 DOF. Something to do with conductor crystal lattice and defects in it, as well as spin population.

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #96 on: 2025-03-21, 10:50:19 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Quote from: Smudge on 2025-03-21, 10:27:25 This wasn't a question about your experiment. It was about your response to my paper. Further to my previous post I would point out that when the conductor moves (the Lorentz force doing work) the velocity of the conduction electrons is now the vector sum of drift velocity plus conductor velocity which by Pythagorus is now greater than their intitial drift velocity, which is what I say in my paper. I reason that a conduction electron hurling past a Fe atom at Fermi velocity endures a brief magnetic field pulse that isn't sufficient to allow the electron to reach its cyclotron radius where the "no work" rule applies. Smudge I agree on this point, but it doesn't call into question my answer, which only concerned one specific point, the fact that the magnetic force (F=qVxB) doesn't work. It is simply the energetically neutral vector of mutual effects between charges in different frames of reference, whereas the mechanical or electrical force does work, by setting charges in motion in relation to others. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #97 on: 2025-03-21, 11:00:54 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2148	Quote from: verpies on 2025-03-21, 10:28:51 From a paper I can't find now: The thinner the sheet, the more pronounced the effect. Apparently allowing the conduction electrons the freedom to wiggle across the thickness of the plate spoils the effect. The traditional course explanations are so clear on the Hall effect with F=q.VxB, that I didn't even imagine that thickness could be critical. I'll give it a try with aluminum foil. Quote From my memory: there were also non-geometric methods of confining the electrons to 2 DOF. Something to do with conductor crystal lattice and defects in it, as well as spin population. As for Coler, the weakness of the Hall voltage given the thickness of his plates, surely no thinner than mine, seriously calls into question whether this effect would be at work in his set-up. Alternatively, it could be that his set-up favors surface conduction, but for the moment I can't see why. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Smudge	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #98 on: 2025-03-21, 11:10:31 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1961	Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-21, 10:50:19 I agree on this point, but it doesn't call into question my answer, which only concerned one specific point, the fact that the magnetic force (F=qVxB) doesn't work. It is simply the energetically neutral vector of mutual effects between charges in different frames of reference, whereas the mechanical or electrical force does work, by setting charges in motion in relation to others. Are you saying that the Lorentz magnetic force F=qVxB when applied to the moving electrons in a conductor carrying current when integrated over the length of the conductor does not does not yield the force derived from Ampere's force law for current? If so I challenge that. Ampere's law creates force that does do work.

Smudge	Re: The Inventions of Willi von Unruh and Hans Coler « Reply #99 on: 2025-03-21, 11:20:17 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1961	Quote from: F6FLT on 2025-03-21, 11:00:54 As for Coler, the weakness of the Hall voltage given the thickness of his plates, surely no thinner than mine, seriously calls into question whether this effect would be at work in his set-up. Alternatively, it could be that his set-up favors surface conduction, but for the moment I can't see why. At the Coler frequencies skin depth is about 0.1mm so surface conduction definitely applies to his RF currents.