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OverUnity Research > Benches > Itsu (Moderator: Itsu) > Itsu's workbench / placeholder.
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Author Topic: Itsu's workbench / placeholder.  (Read 137519 times)
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img  muDped
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #750 on: 2021-01-15, 19:49:57 »

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Once again, excellent work Itsu!

Your waveform display is exceptionally clean.  You've managed to focus
right in on the circuit of interest without the transients and ringing that
often plague pulse driven circuits.

What I see in your waveform analysis is the "Secret" of the Switching Power
Supply.  The "Charging" followed by "Discharging" of the Inductor or Transformer
into a "Load" for a specific Time Constant.

An example of "Dis-Continuous" output.

Very nice!


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #751 on: 2021-01-15, 20:36:09 »
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Itsu
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The below screenshot shows the current in the L3 circuit (green) and shows the so called "sawtooth waveform" which seems to be an indication for above unity as the current continues after the MOSFET goes off until the next cycle (current rushing in from the ambient!?).
Purple signal is the MOSFET gate signal.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning.

We can see the mosfet gate signal however we cannot see the the input power waveform to the coil, volts x amps. We can also see the output coil current but not the output power, volts x amps. Thus we have no indication of the input/output power or COP because the data is incomplete.

If the input voltage and frequency are set then I would measure/datalog the input power and output power then superimpose the two waveforms to get a better indication of the efficiency.

Another issue is that L3 isn't even the load circuit which makes the data that much more ambiguous.

Regards
AC







---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #752 on: 2021-01-15, 21:25:18 »

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Thanks MuDped,

so there is a "secret" there, but probably not the one meant by the aboveunity.com forum  :D



AC,

its not my reasoning, its just a replication of a replication from a basic above unity device from the aboveunity.com forum.

There it is stated that you have reached the goal (above unity?) when you are able to show the sawtooth waveform in the L3 circuit.
It suppose to indicate that extra current is rushing in from the ambient and thus have reached "above unity".

Strange is that of the many members who have succeeded to show this sawtooth waveform in the L3 circuit nobody has bothered to check the input against output.
Most of them just stop posting as if they really have reached the goal.

   
Well not here, as i just finished making input output measurements while having extra current rushing in from the ambient! (the sawtooth waveform)

Regards Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #753 on: 2021-01-15, 21:48:25 »

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Concerning my replication of "John's Non-Inductive Coil Experiment", i reached the goal of having the sawtooth waveform in the L3 circuit.

But does this mean i have reached "above unity" without any decent measurements?

Not in my book, so i have maintained this L3 sawtooth waveform while powering a 12V/5W bulb in L2 and made some input versus output measurements.

Below screenshot 1 shows the voltage (purple), current (green) and power (red) signals across this 12V/5W bulb in L2 (the load),      so we have 5W output there.
And no, this 5W is NOT also available in the L3 circuit as we have no load there.

Screenshot 2 shows the voltage (purple), current (green) and power (red) signals into L1 BEFORE the filter circuit, so very close to what the PS delivers,      so we have 7.3W input there.

Screenshot 3 shows the voltage (purple), current (green) and power (red) signals into L1 AFTER the filter circuit, so the real signals into L1,     so we have also 7.5W input there, but less accurate due to the nasty spikes reaching 450V.

A video of my measurements is here:  https://youtu.be/UpSkoW0u7cY

So the COP then comes to 5W output, 7.3W input = 5/7.3 = 0.68

Changing the frequency, duty cycle, input voltage, etc. does not show any significant changes up till now.


Regards itsu 
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #754 on: 2021-01-15, 23:34:53 »
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Itsu
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There it is stated that you have reached the goal (above unity?) when you are able to show the sawtooth waveform in the L3 circuit.
It suppose to indicate that extra current is rushing in from the ambient and thus have reached "above unity".

Thanks for the explanation.
I was wondering what you were up to, lol. There is no way you would fall for such an amateur mistake like they did.

Quote
Strange is that of the many members who have succeeded to show this sawtooth waveform in the L3 circuit nobody has bothered to check the input against output. Most of them just stop posting as if they really have reached the goal.

I would agree, it's mind boggling.

Excellent work on your last post and the scope plots are exactly what I would expect to see from my experience.

Regards
AC



---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #755 on: 2021-01-16, 09:35:51 »

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Thanks, its good to know that what we see is as expected like the data also indicate.

Itsu
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #756 on: 2021-01-16, 15:03:59 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-01-15, 21:48:25
Concerning my replication of "John's Non-Inductive Coil Experiment", i reached the goal of having the sawtooth waveform in the L3 circuit.

But does this mean i have reached "above unity" without any decent measurements?

Not in my book, so i have maintained this L3 sawtooth waveform while powering a 12V/5W bulb in L2 and made some input versus output measurements.

Below screenshot 1 shows the voltage (purple), current (green) and power (red) signals across this 12V/5W bulb in L2 (the load),      so we have 5W output there.
And no, this 5W is NOT also available in the L3 circuit as we have no load there.

Screenshot 2 shows the voltage (purple), current (green) and power (red) signals into L1 BEFORE the filter circuit, so very close to what the PS delivers,      so we have 7.3W input there.

Screenshot 3 shows the voltage (purple), current (green) and power (red) signals into L1 AFTER the filter circuit, so the real signals into L1,     so we have also 7.5W input there, but less accurate due to the nasty spikes reaching 450V.

A video of my measurements is here:  https://youtu.be/UpSkoW0u7cY

So the COP then comes to 5W output, 7.3W input = 5/7.3 = 0.68

Changing the frequency, duty cycle, input voltage, etc. does not show any significant changes up till now.


Regards itsu

Itsu,

This agrees with the results that I was able to achieve in all my replications of the POC!

Pm
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #757 on: 2021-01-16, 15:22:02 »

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Thanks PM,

thats good to know.

I wonder how many of the members there who have reached the sawtooth goal also have found that out.

Itsu
« Last Edit: 2021-01-17, 21:16:53 by Itsu »
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #758 on: 2021-01-18, 09:32:54 »

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So the COP is known (0.68), but what about this "aiding of L1 by L3" statement found here:
https://www.aboveunity.com/thread/non-inductive-coil-experiment-replication/?order=all#comment-1de20447-5fd9-4f6d-910f-abc1016e842a


Quote
The Answer is: Action, Reaction and Counter-Reaction.

Action:
Primary Coil Creates a Disturbance in the Vacuum.
 
Reaction:
The Secondary Coil Opposes this Disturbance, Lenz's Law.
 
Counter-Reaction:
The Tertiary Coil then opposes the Secondary Coil, Lenz's Law again, but this time, not opposing the Primary, opposing the Secondary, an Assistive Force to the Primary.

We must realise, every Coil has a Reaction Force, this is seen as a Dual Wave Structure:
     Incoming Wave, to create a Disturbance in the Conductive Mass.
     A Reactionary Wave, Out Going, Lenz's Law Effect, Newton's Laws of Motion, "For every Action there is an Equal and opposite Reaction".

We now, using Asymmetry, changed the Laws, now having Action, Reaction and Counter-Reaction. Showing the way around Newton's Laws of Motion, no longer being a Law, only a reasonably accurate description.



So i measured L1 current and switched off / on the L3 circuit, see video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbJZNxrARn4&feature=youtu.be

Oeps,  i had the current probe wrongly attached,  see below corrected screenshot with white the L1 current when L3 closed and overlayed in green the L1 current when L3 open.

So when L3 is closed (active), the effect on L1 current is that it drops from 2.057A to 1.991A which is 66mA or by 3.2%.

So indeed L3 is aiding L1, but by a marginal extent.

Perhaps there is more to squeeze out of it, but nothing magically will happen i think.

Regards Itsu
   
img  Chet K
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #759 on: 2021-01-25, 04:07:46 »
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Itsu
Been getting persons asking me about above u forum
Have you heard anything?

Apparently there are issues still ?
I did ask jimB if he could check and see that things are OK

Will make some calls tomorrow to members who should be able to reach him!
Perhaps a note to Loz?
( some are very worried)

Sorry to post this here without asking
I can move if you wish

Thx
Chet
EDIT for below

Yes this is what I have been telling persons it probably is update issues!

One person did mention no YouTube responses either from him ?

Thx again .... I will make some calls regardless
« Last Edit: 2021-01-25, 11:09:22 by Chet K »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #760 on: 2021-01-25, 09:12:11 »

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Hi Chet, 

What i know is that the AU forum was planned to have an update starting at 17 Jan. and was planned to last a "few days".

But there also have seem to come up a server hosting issue which could have extended this "few days" untill a new hosting platform was found, so a week or weeks.

I am sure the forum will be up as soon as things are sorted out over there.

Regards Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #761 on: 2021-02-16, 13:40:00 »

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Bumping this thread so the AU.com members can have something to compare about the "sawtooth waveform" experiments.

Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #762 on: 2021-10-25, 15:24:31 »

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Using my "workbench / placeholder" thread for showing some pictures / screenshots of some nano-pulsers.

Below picture is from my "Dally" nano-pulser using similar components as Dally used in his famous circuit.
The KT926 transistor and the bulky KD203 diodes.

The screenshot 1 (SC 2 without databox) shows the nano-pulse in yellow (998Vpp @ 5ns) and in blue the voltage across a 0.1 Ohm 1% induction-free csr in series with the DSR diode (KD203)

Itsu
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #763 on: 2021-10-26, 16:14:24 »

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Here another more "state of the art" nano-pulser using a MOSFET.

The screenshot 1 again shows the nano-pulse voltage (yellow) as 1.8KV @ 7ns and the current through the DSR diode (P600) in white.

I cannot scope the both traces at the same time as the voltage across the 0.1 Ohm resistor is rather high (348Vpp across a 0.1 Ohm csr means 3.48KApp)

EDIT:

Screenshot 2 is the current through the 0.1 Ohm csr (with corrected (real) value) in blue, together with the peak voltage across the 50 Ohm load.

I now used a RF probe tip across the 0.1 Ohm csr to reduce inductive interference.
« Last Edit: 2021-10-26, 20:30:28 by Itsu »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #764 on: 2021-10-28, 10:26:10 »

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The reason i here used a 0.1 Ohm csr is because this setup requires one.

The voltage across this 0.1 Ohm csr (using the RF probe tip) already was 162Vpp.

If using a 1 Ohm csr, that voltage would be 1620V which is more then my used probe/scope can handle.

I was not trying to measure any power, i just was asked to show the current waveform through the DSR diode in a nano-pulser, which i did.

Calculating the power in that nano-pulse is done using the P=U²/R formula (P=1800²/50, P=64800W =64.8kW).
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #765 on: 2022-01-02, 10:59:49 »

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I was looking into the hysteresis response of some of my yokes (3).

I used this setup: http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm#hysteresis  (instead of the 22 Ohm csr i used my current probe).

This seems to be the so called "integration method" which uses an indirect measurement of the magnetic induction also shown here: https://meettechniek.info/passive/magnetic-hysteresis.html

Be aware that verpies mentioned that this method "can have so many error modes" (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4231.msg96873#msg96873)

Anyway, its easily done and could perhaps show some differences in the used ferrites.



I compare 3 yokes with these 2 known toroids;

# finemet FT-3K50TS  https://www.hilltech.com/pdf/Hitachi/Datasheets/FINEMET_CMC_Core_FT-3K50T_F_Series.pdf
# T107/65/18-3F4   https://www.acalbfi.com/se/media/UK_PMA_T107_65_18-3F4_DS?pegId=productDetails&product=000000013F


Below are the used toroids / yokes and their hysteresis response together with some data.
I used my FG and an audio amplifier at 200Hz.

Looking at the yokes, there seems to be not a great difference which is as to be expected i think.
Be noted that there is no air gap in between the yokes half's (tightly clamped together using electrical tape.
Also the "Yoke glued" has an broken half which was glued together perhaps causing some different result.   

Regards Itsu   
« Last Edit: 2022-01-02, 21:11:32 by Itsu »
   
img  verpies
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #766 on: 2022-01-02, 16:16:23 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2022-01-02, 10:59:49
This seems to be the so called "integration method" which uses an indirect measurement of the magnetic induction also shown here: https://meettechniek.info/passive/magnetic-hysteresis.html
Does your Tek scope have a math function "integrate" ?
If it does, the measurement can be simplified even more.

Quote from: Itsu on 2022-01-02, 10:59:49
I used my FG and an audio amplifier at 200Hz.
Does that amplifier have 4Ω output impedance ?
What is the input impedance of your DUTs when you measure their inductance with your LCR meter and use the XL=2πfL formula with it ?
Did you tailor the 200Hz to maximize the MPTT ?
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #767 on: 2022-01-02, 16:36:12 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2022-01-02, 16:16:23
Does your Tek scope have a math function "integrate" ?
If it does, the measurement can be simplified even more.

Yes it does.

Quote
Does that amplifier have 4Ω output impedance ?
What is the input impedance of your DUTs when you measure their inductance with your LCR meter and use the XL=2πfL formula with it ?

Yes, that amplifier has 4 Ohm output impedance, and i use a 4.7 Ohm resistor in series with the dut
Using that formula i get 2.1 Ohm reactance (1700uH @ 200Hz) on Yoke R


Quote
Did you tailor the 200Hz to maximize the MPTT ?

No,  but will look into that (guess i need a  1.9 Ohm series resistor to match the 4 Ohm output impedance of the amplifier).
   
img  verpies
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #768 on: 2022-01-02, 17:28:18 »

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Higher current flowing in the DUT is better because it allows it to be driven into saturation and to observe at how many ampturns the saturation actually occurs - a more complete BH curve all in all.

Quote from: Itsu on 2022-01-02, 16:36:12
No,  but will look into that (guess i need a  1.9 Ohm series resistor to match the 4 Ohm output impedance of the amplifier).
A resistor will not increase the power transfer.
...but a matching impedance will. 

The impedance of your DUT increases with frequency.  Also see this.
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #769 on: 2022-01-02, 17:41:58 »

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Right, but as we are using a fixed frequency (200Hz) the DUT impedance will be fixed also (2.1 Ohm in this case).
So i need to match the 4 Ohm amplifier output impedance with the 2.1 Ohm impedance @ 200Hz of the DUT.


Quote
Higher current flowing in the DUT is better because it allows you drive it into saturation and observe at how many ampturns the saturation actually occurs - a more complete BH curve all in all.

I try to have the input current waveform undistorted (sine wave), so limit this input current to get that.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #770 on: 2022-01-02, 20:49:29 »

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I added a 3rd yoke to my post #765 above (Yoke U).

This "yoke U" is the big yoke i used up till now on my latest Ruslan replication.


By the way,  the forum is very sluggish today, i receive some time outs also lately......

Itsu
   
img  AlienGrey
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #771 on: 2022-01-02, 22:28:40 »
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Itsu and others have you tried when winding some thing like the yoke or torroid experimented adding turns as well as over the out side and back through the inside as per normal but also putting a few turns horizontal around the out side ie at 90 deg thus creating a vortex within the magnetic field.

Regards Sil
« Last Edit: 2022-01-02, 23:50:30 by AlienGrey »
   
img  verpies
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #772 on: 2022-01-02, 23:03:01 »

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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2022-01-02, 22:28:40
Itsu and others have you tried when winding some thimg like the yoke or toroid experimentited adding turns as well as over the out side and back through the inside as per normal but also putting a few turns horizontal around the out side ie at 90 deg thus creating a vortex within the magetic field.
For this, that extra winding would need to be driven with current at 90º phase in addition to its 90º physical orientation.
Anyway, I think that Itsu is just after a nice BH curve measurement here.
« Last Edit: 2022-01-03, 00:39:14 by verpies »
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #773 on: 2022-01-03, 00:08:56 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2022-01-02, 16:36:12
Yes it does.
So if your XY mode can use that integrating math channel as a source for its Y axis, then you can delete the integrating RC network and connect the scope directly to the secondary winding.
See this video.

Quote from: Itsu on 2022-01-02, 17:41:58
So i need to match the 4 Ohm amplifier output impedance with the 2.1 Ohm impedance @ 200Hz of the DUT.
Why not match the -4Ω amplifier output impedance with the +4Ω impedance of the DUT @ e.g 400 Hz ?

Quote from: Itsu on 2022-01-02, 17:41:58
I try to have the input current waveform undistorted (sine wave), so limit this input current to get that.
The sine shape does not matter in XY mode.
Personally, I like the symmetrical triangle current waveform flowing through the primary because it creates constant ±dFm/dt in the primary and constant induced ±EMF in the secondary when the core is not saturating.

Quote from: Itsu on 2022-01-02, 17:41:58
By the way,  the forum is very sluggish today, i receive some time outs also lately......
For me, too.  Maybe Peter is finally working on the SMF code and updating the DB.
   
img  AlienGrey
Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #774 on: 2022-01-03, 10:59:22 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2022-01-02, 23:03:01
For this, that extra winding would need to be driven with current at 90º phase in addition to its 90º physical orientation.
Anyway, I think that Itsu is just after a nice BH curve measurement here.
No on the yoke you already have 2 windings driven by the Mos-Fets you eather need to advance/delay one phase 90 deg
D smith does this on his neon inverter the novice always ignors this trick, or use a four phase clock to make a rotory vortex a TL494 is an inveter driver at 180 deg,
some motor drivers are four phase.

Also re  the nano pulser has a coax cable to set that up as a telecom eng you first need terminate the cable and tune its length then you need to open circuit it or short circuit it to produce standing waves.

Also be aware this post needs deleating once read.
Sil
   
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