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Author Topic: Itsu's workbench / placeholder.  (Read 137204 times)
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #450 on: 2020-04-27, 21:44:18 »
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Itsu, ok for the 2.6 Ohm, will modify it. 

Okay also on the coupling factor, thanks.  But less coupling reduces output power in the load I am afraid.

Will continue tomorrow. Good night Folks.

Gyula
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #451 on: 2020-04-27, 21:57:52 »
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Itsu , i already put the same values of .tran statement , but of course you could not see the detail until decrease the values .
Also hope now you understand the shots . V1 is the input voltage source V1  and E2 is the bulb N004 plus output of bridge .
The math is very nice function from LTspice  , and he only make the math to you and if you see well the values in formulas are correct.


 


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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #452 on: 2020-04-27, 23:26:55 »
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Hi Itsu and Gyula ,

I will try measure all the caps tomorrow with the LCR meter and after i will update .
About the LTspice :
I lower the coupling factor to 0.7 of L2/L3 like you did Itsu , and use a 10ms in Transient Analysis simulation .
I left the last shots for today . My question is as follows:
The current in E2 (Follow the scheme) has a negative peak of 168.39mA at 0,05ms with a peak voltage of 8.0092V at N004 giving a 1.3307W .

The current in input 9.8mA at V1 and 24V at V1, giving a 224.49mW of power consumed .

My question is as follows:
Why does LTspice show a lower consumption value in V1 at the entrance, compared to the value displayed at the exit at E2, even if it is in a small fraction of time?

Is LTspice supposed to present this type of values, being a reference software in electronic simulation?

Once again I thank you for your availability on this topic.
Have a good night !



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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #453 on: 2020-04-28, 01:19:45 »
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Hi Nelson thanks for the comments and yes I did ask you for information on the device you have so kindly
donated to us I am very grateful for, as I have said my build of the device (my birds nest version)   :)
works very well but just about consumes 11 ma at 14 volts about 154mw and dimly lights a 1W  LED
device. But that’s what I get with the components and coils I have and sticking to the original circuit drawing
and coil guess work.

Is the above Itsue drawing I assume you have posted an amendment with the 'actual' measured
component values ? could you confirm as I will then make another test circuit and hopefully get better results
not that i am in any way unhappy with my original results.

Many thanks again to you Nelson for your gifted help, your a star!

AG

PS I’m not a spice user my self


   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #454 on: 2020-04-28, 09:27:20 »

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Nelson,

thanks for the screenshots.

The trace readouts (like V(N005,N004)*I(E2) etc.) are kind of cryptic, but if you know the components (E2 is output bulb) it kind of makes sense now.

 
Do i understand correctly that after changing the coupling factor to 0.7 it now runs (at least longer then 10ms)?.

 
Your first post (#451 no running) shows all value's return to 0 after some initial transients which could been caused by the charged up C4 (to 8V).

Your second post (#452 running?) shows sustained oscillations for at least 10ms.

Why it shows more out then in in that situation i can't tell you, sorry.


Itsu
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #455 on: 2020-04-28, 10:16:25 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2020-04-28, 09:27:20
Nelson,

thanks for the screenshots.

The trace readouts (like V(N005,N004)*I(E2) etc.) are kind of cryptic, but if you know the components (E2 is output bulb) it kind of makes sense now.

 
Do i understand correctly that after changing the coupling factor to 0.7 it now runs (at least longer then 10ms)?.

 
Your first post (#451 no running) shows all value's return to 0 after some initial transients which could been caused by the charged up C4 (to 8V).

Your second post (#452 running?) shows sustained oscillations for at least 10ms.

Why it shows more out then in in that situation i can't tell you, sorry.


Itsu


hello Itsu good morning,
Regarding the trace readouts of Lt spice:
When you place the cursor to measure the nodes on your Ltspice diagram, does it not number the Nodes? In my case Ltspice starts by numbering N 001 when i try plote the voltage. This is the reason why you see in the power calculation formula, V (N001 * I V1) .
How is the identification of your nods presented to you, when you try to plot the voltage?  I think it must be something similar, since all nodes must be identified in order for Ltspice to be able to perform calculations.

about coupling factor .
I change the coupling factor to 7 to use the same value you use,  but I could run the transient test with coupling factor 8 or 9 with better result .
As I mentioned earlier, I am not a regular user of Ltspice, but I was curious to know what the simulation results would be, in so-called less common situations, and to check the Ltspice's analysis capacity, to check this  circuit, that is the reason why I ask, how does a software, which is a reference in electronic simulation, present values that it is not supposed to present.
I am not calling into question the reliability of Ltspice, as I believe that there may be some justification for this behavior.
But I'm really curious!
I hope I'm not boring with this topic, and I appreciate your understanding.
I will update with more information throughout the day.










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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #456 on: 2020-04-28, 10:22:06 »
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Hi Nelson,

Good morning! Thanks for your 'ultimo' circuit file, I have just run it and there is an Error Log created after each run, I quote the relevant text:

  Error on line 2 : l1 n006 0 3.07mh ipk=0.55 rser=2,6 rpar=177900 cpar=4.716p
    Unknown parameter "6"

It means you put a comma instead of a dot in the value of the series resistance 2.6 Ohm, so the simulator run with 2 Ohm only.

This error cannot influence too much your results and questions but please rerun the circuit with the 2.6 Ohm and try to upload the same screenshots, just to avoid anyproblems avoidable,

Later I will attempt to find answers of course, bare with me,  :)

Gyula
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #457 on: 2020-04-28, 10:23:36 »
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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2020-04-28, 01:19:45
Hi Nelson thanks for the comments and yes I did ask you for information on the device you have so kindly
donated to us I am very grateful for, as I have said my build of the device (my birds nest version)   :)
works very well but just about consumes 11 ma at 14 volts about 154mw and dimly lights a 1W  LED
device. But that’s what I get with the components and coils I have and sticking to the original circuit drawing
and coil guess work.

Is the above Itsue drawing I assume you have posted an amendment with the 'actual' measured
component values ? could you confirm as I will then make another test circuit and hopefully get better results
not that i am in any way unhappy with my original results.

Many thanks again to you Nelson for your gifted help, your a star!

AG

PS I’m not a spice user my self

Good morning and,
Thank you for your words and for your participation in this topic.
I would like you to have a little patience, until we found new answers regarding the circuit.

The data to the coils is  L1 have 3,07mH  and L2/L3 have each one 13mH.
I hope that with this data, you will be able to replicate with better results.
Finally, I must say that this type of work requires a lot of perseverance, so you should be prepared for long hours of experimentation if you want to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I hope you have a great day.


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Nelson Rocha

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Once you’re valuable, instead of chasing success,
it will attract itself to you. "
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #458 on: 2020-04-28, 10:25:07 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2020-04-28, 10:22:06
Hi Nelson,

Good morning! Thanks for your 'ultimo' circuit file, I have just run it and there is an Error Log created after each run, I quote the relevant text:

  Error on line 2 : l1 n006 0 3.07mh ipk=0.55 rser=2,6 rpar=177900 cpar=4.716p
    Unknown parameter "6"

It means you put a comma instead of a dot in the value of the series resistance 2.6 Ohm, so the simulator run with 2 Ohm only.

This error cannot influence too much your results and questions but please rerun the circuit with the 2.6 Ohm and try to upload the same screenshots, just to avoid anyproblems avoidable,

Later I will attempt to find answers of course, bare with me,  :)

Gyula


Gyula good morning !
thanks ! i Will correct and update  fast i can  ;)   

Modified - wouldn't it be better to tell me at what points should i take measurements so that they are common with your measurements?
I suggested measuring at E1 and E2 so we would have common measurement points, which would make it easier to compare results between us.


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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #459 on: 2020-04-28, 10:40:22 »
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Well,  the E2 bulb is in series with the 200 uF capacitor in your 'ultimo' schematic. Is that intentional? Or the bulb should be directly across the output?
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #460 on: 2020-04-28, 10:40:27 »
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Hi Itsu and Gyula ,

new data with the vaue error corrected in L1 .



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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #461 on: 2020-04-28, 10:47:18 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2020-04-28, 10:40:22
Well,  the E2 bulb is in series with the 200 uF capacitor in your 'ultimo' schematic. Is that intentional? Or the bulb should be directly across the output?

Gyula ,
If I understand your question well, what is the reason for E2 to be in series with the 200uf capacitor?
Isn't it the same in your scheme and Itsu? I didn't change anything in the original diagram. can you be more clear? thanks


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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #462 on: 2020-04-28, 10:54:18 »
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Yes, it was also in series of course in our simulation but I mean in your videos when you loaded the DC output with the 12V bulb then it was not in series with the capacitor but in parallel with the output.
I understand that you wish to figure out in the simulation why the instanteneous output power level is higher than the input one, right?

Gyula
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #463 on: 2020-04-28, 11:08:35 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2020-04-28, 10:54:18
Yes, it was also in series of course in our simulation but I mean in your videos when you loaded the DC output with the 12V bulb then it was not in series with the capacitor but in parallel with the output.
I understand that you wish to figure out in the simulation why the instanteneous output power level is higher than the input one, right?

Gyula


Gyula ,

 
Now I understand your question.
Gyula the small lamps E1 and E2 have always been in series since the beginning, both in videos and diagrams.
As I explained, both served to have a visual idea of the current at the entrance and exit of the circuit .He had explained that given the lack of equipment, it was an "easy" way to sense the current that flowed when charging the capacitor or when shorting.I had even mentioned that the circuit could work without the same lamps.

I hope I have clarified your doubts regarding your question.  Many thanks


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" The goal is not to be successful, the goal is to be valuable.
Once you’re valuable, instead of chasing success,
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #464 on: 2020-04-28, 12:00:27 »
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Quote from: nelsonrochaa on 2020-04-28, 11:08:35

Gyula ,

 
Now I understand your question.
Gyula the small lamps E1 and E2 have always been in series since the beginning, both in videos and diagrams.
As I explained, both served to have a visual idea of the current at the entrance and exit of the circuit .He had explained that given the lack of equipment, it was an "easy" way to sense the current that flowed when charging the capacitor or when shorting.I had even mentioned that the circuit could work without the same lamps.

I hope I have clarified your doubts regarding your question.  Many thanks

Hi Nelson,

Well, in your 3rd video on your working oscillator, if I see it correctly, you shorted the black and red colored wires and the 12V bulb was lit with fair brightness.  In that moment the bulb was put in parallel with the output of the bridge rectifier,  no?   i.e. the bulb loaded directly the DC output. This is why the bulb gave the brightness as seen in the snapshot picture below, is this correct?   

If this E2 bulb was not in parallel with the DC output in this test, then how was it connected?    :)

Thanks,
Gyula

PS  on your 3rd video I mean the one as indicated in Itsu's post here:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3691.msg80986#msg80986 
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #465 on: 2020-04-28, 12:21:16 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2020-04-28, 12:00:27
Hi Nelson,

Well, in your 3rd video on your working oscillator, if I see it correctly, you shorted the black and red colored wires and the 12V bulb was lit with fair brightness.  In that moment the bulb was put in parallel with the output of the bridge rectifier,  no?   i.e. the bulb loaded directly the DC output. This is why the bulb gave the brightness as seen in the snapshot picture below, is this correct?   

If this E2 bulb was not in parallel with the DC output in this test, then how was it connected?    :)

Thanks,
Gyula

PS  on your 3rd video I mean the one as indicated in Itsu's post here:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3691.msg80986#msg80986



Hi Gyula ,
In all the videos E2 Bulb is in series, exactly like this represented in the scheme that I drew and shared since the first day in OU. The same was redesigned by Itsu who kept it faithful to the original, and that is the reason why it is also represented in this way in the LTspice scheme in series .
The E1 and E2 works like current monitor on input and output .
when I shorted the black and red colored wires, i'm shorting the rectified output bridge , where E2 is in series with the plus of the bride output, hence the reason why it shines when I short the red and black wire.
If E2 were in parallel at the output, wouldn't I need to short the output wires for E2 to light up ?!
Was I clear enough now in this explanation?


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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #466 on: 2020-04-28, 13:51:52 »
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Dear Nelson,

I always understood the E2 bulb was in series with the output.  However, when you connected the black and red wires together, in that moment a bulb became connected in parallel with the DC output, no?  This is what I am saying....   8)  :)

See the attached schema, red circle is the red wire, black circle is the black wire. Is that correct?

I do not mean the bulb was always in parallel with the output, only for the moments you shorted the two wires.  :D    And very likely whenever you charged up the 470 uF capacitor from the oscillator , the E2 bulb was still in series of course, the capacitor got charge via the bulb, right?

I hope this is okay now?   :D  ;)

Gyula
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #467 on: 2020-04-28, 15:01:07 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2020-04-28, 13:51:52
Dear Nelson,

I always understood the E2 bulb was in series with the output.  However, when you connected the black and red wires together, in that moment a bulb became connected in parallel with the DC output, no?  This is what I am saying....   8)  :)

See the attached schema, red circle is the red wire, black circle is the black wire. Is that correct?

I do not mean the bulb was always in parallel with the output, only for the moments you shorted the two wires.  :D    And very likely whenever you charged up the 470 uF capacitor from the oscillator , the E2 bulb was still in series of course, the capacitor got charge via the bulb, right?

I hope this is okay now?   :D  ;)

Gyula

Gyula ,
For me, it is clear from the beginning that when I short the two wires E2 is in parallel, and when the capacitor is connected, E2 is connected in series. That was exactly the intention, to be able to visualize the current, when a load was placed at the output.
What is not clear to me is the reason for your question:

Well,  the E2 bulb is in series with the 200 uF capacitor in your 'ultimo' schematic. Is that intentional? Or the bulb should be directly across the output?

I will not be able to answer you since I did not draw the LTspice diagram.
I used the diagram provided by Itsu for convenience, and for the sake of standardizing results, in order to facilitate the comparison of results with you and Itsu.
Does my answer seem acceptable to you?
Do you want me to change the circuit diagram for any particular configuration?
Or do we continue with this configuration?
It is not relevant for me to change the configuration if you wish,  to, so we can move forward.
Thanks


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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #468 on: 2020-04-28, 15:34:41 »
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Hi Itsu and Gyula ,

I measure all the capacitors with the LCR DM4070 . Those are the values . Hope could help improve the simulation .
C1-10uf
C2-1uf
C3-10.12nf
C4-20.4nf
C5-20.3nf
C6-97.2nf
C7-3.5nf


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Once you’re valuable, instead of chasing success,
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #469 on: 2020-04-28, 15:35:20 »
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Hi Nelson,

Yes, your answer is okay with me. No need to change anything in the circuit diagram, we can continue as it is.  And Itsu's drawing corresponds to your drawing, no problem with that.

When I asked that particular question, I simply made a mistake, sorry.   :o

Gyula
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #470 on: 2020-04-28, 15:37:44 »
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Quote from: gyula on 2020-04-28, 15:35:20
Hi Nelson,

Yes, your answer is okay with me. No need to change anything in the circuit diagram, we can continue as it is.  And Itsu's drawing corresponds to your drawing, no problem with that.

When I asked that particular question, I simply made a mistake, sorry.   :o

Gyula

No problem Gyula let's go forward :)


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Once you’re valuable, instead of chasing success,
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #471 on: 2020-04-28, 15:51:18 »
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Hi Itsu,

Would like to ask you for doing some measurements on your oscillator, regardless it does not behave exactly in the same way as Nelson's oscillator does.

What I am curious is the base and collector current waveforms shown in the simulation below, how do they compare to the waveforms in the practical oscillator.

What is interesting in the simulation is that during the base current pulse, whenever it is present, there is a negative collector current involved just during the base on time. And when the base current pulse returns to zero, a positive collector current starts which ends earlier than the next base current pulse comes. See first screenshot. I wonder whether this is so in the practical circuit.
Of course I know this would need the new transistor to arrive and also you could find similar L2 L3 coils etc.

Another thing would be to check when does current flow in diodes D1 and D2 ? 

As per the simulator, current flow only in the first few microseconds, the initially given 8V in C4 (ic8) discharges directly via D2, and also via the path L1 - D1. And after this transient discharge dies out (in about 90 us see the top part of the 2nd screenshot), the simulator does not show any current flow via the diodes during the 10 ms (or even 50) simulation time, as if these diodes would not be present in the circuit.
In the bottom part of 2nd screenshot I included the current in C4 (yellow trace) for the full 10 ms simulation time. C4 has AC current of course, it is 52.3 mA RMS as per the simulator, and this current must drive the L2 coil too.

How you could measure two currents at the same time: perhaps your current probe could be used for the collector, and because the base current is the negative polarity image of the voltage across resistor R1,  the differential measurements method with  CH 1 and CH 2 voltage probes across R1 could be ok.

Regarding D1 and D2 currents: just use the current probe for each, separately.

I just noticed Nelson capacitor measurements and the new value but my simulations for this post was done earlier.

Thanks,  Gyula
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #472 on: 2020-04-28, 16:05:54 »

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Here below i have copied Nelson his ultimo diagram and made the same traces as for the E1 input and E2 output.

They match very well, the rms value box is for the current through E1 and E2.


Gyula,  i will start making those measurements using the parts i have (still no MJE18008 or 13mH CMC)


Itsu
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #473 on: 2020-04-28, 17:04:27 »
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Quote from: nelsonrochaa on 2020-04-28, 15:34:41
Hi Itsu and Gyula ,

I measure all the capacitors with the LCR DM4070 . Those are the values . Hope could help improve the simulation .
C1-10uf
C2-1uf
C3-10.12nf
C4-20.4nf
C5-20.3nf
C6-97.2nf
C7-3.5nf

Hi Nelson,

Thanks for these measured values.  I just used them and oscilation bogged down just before the 10 ms run time.

By reducing coupling between L2-L3 from 0.7 to 0.69, the simulation goes to about 190 ms (when I run it to 200 ms). 

When the amplitude of a waveform start becoming gradually narrower or gradually expanding toward the end time of the simulation, it indicates oscillation stops soon. 

Further tweaking with the component values now has become restricted if we adhere to the measured capacitor values.
This is inherent in simulations, only the high end (USD 10,000-15,000+) circuit simulators use transistor model parameters measured in laboratories for particular types.  I mention transistor models becasue they are critical when switching or nonlinear operation is involved, most other passive components in such free or cheap simulators behave correctly in most of the cases.

Gyula
   
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Re: Itsu's workbench / placeholder. « Reply #474 on: 2020-04-28, 17:12:25 »

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Gyula,

below the screenshot of the currents through my MJE13009 collector (white) and base (green).
I kept the same amplitude, but you see the base current is very low compared to the collector.


I can expand on the base current if you want.


The diode currents at startup is somewhat tricky.

EDIT, i used 2 current probes one for the collector current (purple) and one for the base current (green) but with different amplitude settings!!  See 2th screenshot


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2020-04-28, 20:56:33 by Itsu »
   
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