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Author Topic: Itsu's workbench / placeholder.  (Read 137338 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Cool Itsu.

Do you have a diagram for the test setup yet?


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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Well,  no,  not yet.

I am still working on a non-ferromagnetic box to put the toroid in so it is isolated from any stray capacitance
so to not influence the measurements.

If we use the 2x 4turn windings for input / output with some matching cap. trimmers or using a special bicycle wheel
style of winding is also not decided on.

So progressing, but slowly.


Itsu
   

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One of the problems will be to protect the Spectrum Analyzer / Scope inputs during the pulse, but have it
fully opened for "listening" for the response.
My approach to such isolation is keeping the Tx coil perpendicular to the Rx coil.

First, both coils should be tuned for MINIMUM reflection coefficient (or return loss or S11 or VSWR) at the target frequency. Using Litz wire for the windings is highly recommended.
Also, the Rx coil cannot ring (self-oscillate) at the target frequency, or you will not be able to distinguish the LC ringing from the nuclear resonance - this is very important !

When positioning the TX and Rx coil in respect to each other, their Mutual Coupling should be minimized ! 
This can be done by twisting the coils any way you can for minimum mutual coupling and making a fixture that keeps the coils positioned appropriately with respect to each other.  This also means that the coils cannot touch each other in order to avoid capacitive coupling.

Now, winding perpendicular windings on a toroidal core requires some imagination, but it is easy to come up with a way to do it on a cylindrical or square rod (a sample or sample holder).

I admit I was never able to achieve a sharp resonance with a toroidal core, but I was able to do so with a fine iron powder (easy to get) packed in a glass test tube which was purged with Argon (from a TIG welder) and bulk heated to 500ºC and spot melted shut.
After the test tube was sealed with hot Argon inside, it was heated to 400ºC for one day, wrapped in fiberglass isolation and allowed to cool slowly.  This annealing process makes the resonance very sharp at 50kHz FWHM.
If you let the iron powder oxidize, then the iron oxides will resonate much higher than 45.5MHz, so be prepared to search up to 48Mhz ...and if the iron gets sulfated - even up to 76MHz.

Below is a diagram of the NMR arrangement, with the metal powder held in a glass tube (light blue).
The big magnets with the steel yoke are not needed when resonating iron because iron has a natural -33T internal field, thus a big homogeneous field is not absolutely needed... but it does not hurt (a 750mT field helps to align the ferromagnetic domains in one direction).
Also, iron features a 104 enhancement factor of the nuclear signal, which more than makes up for the 2% isotopic abundance of the susceptible 57Fe.

Last but not least, Solid State RF switches help to protect the sensitive receivers during the Tx pulse and an RF switch can also disconnect the Tx winding during reception, so the impedance of the disabled Tx generator does not absorb the RF energy back and leaves more for the Rx coil to pick up.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-28, 10:46:35 by verpies »
   

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Wow,  i see that you have found your Macgyver thinking cap again.

The first part seems feasible, and i am trying lately to get the toroid coils tuned for minimum returns loss
by using a parallel trimmer cap (100pF), but i did not find the correct amount of turns yet as the minmum reflection
frequency is way up there (600Mhz).

Seems i need lots of turns which i did not expect using an iron powdered toroid.


The second part of your post is far less feasible imo as it needs a well equipped lab to be able to do all that.

Last but not least, two Solid State RF switches to help to protect the sensitive receivers during the Tx pulse etc.
sounds to be doable.

Itsu
   

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Seems i need lots of turns which i did not expect using an iron powdered toroid.
That surprises me too. Is the low return loss dip, before or after the natural LC self-resonance of the coil (while reading left to right on the SA's display) ?

The second part of your post is far less feasible imo as it needs a well equipped lab to be able to do all that.
Which part?  The perpendicular Tx and Rx coils?

Last but not least, two Solid State RF switches to help to protect the sensitive receivers during the Tx pulse etc.
sounds to be doable.
Yes, many manufacturets make Solid State RF switches and single RF MOSFETs can be used to short the inputs of sensitive receivers, too. Watch out for their Drain capacitance, though...
   

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Quote
That surprises me too. Is the low return loss dip, before or after the natural LC self-resonance of the coil (while reading left to right on the SA's display) ?

Well,  thats hard to say as i see severall dips and peaks in the upper frequency range 600 - 1500Mhz.
All are moving slightly when trimming the trimming cap.

The low frequency part (0 - 200Mhz) is almost flat and that is where i expected to see some resonance and low
VSWR responses.



Quote
Which part?  The perpendicular Tx and Rx coils?

No, the fine iron powder etc. part



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Well,  thats hard to say as i see severall dips and peaks in the upper frequency range 600 - 1500Mhz.
If you think about it, an ideal inductor will increase its impedance (only inductive reactance) with frequency forever.
However a real inductor has a parallel self-capacitance, too. This self-capacitance decreases its impedance (capacitive reactance) with frequency.
At LC resonance frequency the reactance of the capacitance cancels the reactance of the inductance.



What this means is that above the LC self-resonance frequency more current flows in the capacitance than in the inductance.
Current flowing in any parallel capacitance does not contribute to the magnetic field inside the winding !!!
The same goes for any parallel capacitors you add...not series capacitors, though.

No, the fine iron powder etc. part
Do you mean buying the iron powder or melting the glass with a torch? ....because getting Argon is as easy as going to a welding shop and begging a welder to put some of it in your tube with the powder...
« Last Edit: 2019-01-28, 18:15:39 by verpies »
   

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Here the full spectrum in a VSWR measurement.
Having 7 turns and a parallel 100pf trimmer


Quote
Do you mean buying the iron powder or melting the glass with a torch? ....because getting Argon is as easy as going to a welding shop and begging a welder to put some of it in your tube with the powder...


No, more the rest after that, like "heated to 500ºC and spot melted shut" and "it was heated to 400ºC for one day, wrapped in fiberglass isolation and allowed to cool slowly" etc.

Not many people can do that.

   
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It's turtles all the way down
Question :

After you have successfully detected the 45.5 MHz NMR signal, what is the next step?

Since Verpies seems very far down the path with this research, what was the next step, and what are the data results?

Has there been success with a Meyer or Colman-Gillespie experiment?

Regards


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I didn't like the idea of combining DC and RF in one winding because in general NMR likes the DC field to be perpendicular to the RF field. It is a geometric issue that necessitates a separate DC winding (or a big magnet).
I thought that might be an issue.

Quote
On a scope it looks like this:
During the T1 period, the matter absorbs the RF energy of very specific frequency (±100kHz). This absorption loads and decreases the amplitude of the Tx generator, which the receiver can sense.
By "TX" and "RX" are you referring to the two coils on the core? Are the two coils wound as a transformer, or are they in quadrature?

The TX signal looks as though it maintains a steady amplitude.

Quote
During the T2 period, after the Tx generator is turned off, the matter re-radiates this RF energy back.
Generally T2<T1.

Note that the absorption during T1 causes a dip on the Spectrum Analyzer and the re-radiation during T2 causes a peak at the same frequency. If the dip/peak are not separated somehow, they can cancel each other on the spectrogram.
I find it difficult to understand how they might cancel each other when according to the scope shot the two events are not coincident in time.

Quote
The above leads me to another question for you:  What would be your idea for separating them during measurement?
As I alluded above, it seems to me that they are already separated by time.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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Question :

After you have successfully detected the 45.5 MHz NMR signal, what is the next step?

Since Verpies seems very far down the path with this research, what was the next step, and what are the data results?

Has there been success with a Meyer or Colman-Gillespie experiment?

Regards

The next step is to create a nuclear feedback loop, i.e. combine the nuclear spin alignment geometrically with a confining magnetic field in such manner, that the "charge" being released from the nuclear poles, forms a geometric circle inside the iron through Lorentz deflection. 

Let's leave it unexplained for now whether the "charge" emitted from nuclear poles are the fast electrons from beta decay or something else.
   
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itsu

your comment here
Itsu quote
No, more the rest after that, like "heated to 500ºC and spot melted shut" and "it was heated to 400ºC for one day, wrapped in fiberglass isolation and allowed to cool slowly" etc.

Not many people can do that.
end quote

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we have the skills to do this for you here ,however does the temp need to be maintained throughout entire procedure
or can prepared sample be shipped once treated ?

more info from verpies can help expedite ?
a wee jewelry/pottery  kiln for your lab would be needed if sample integrity relied upon maintaining temp [could not be shipped
   

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I thought that might be an issue.
By "TX" and "RX" are you referring to the two coils on the core? Are the two coils wound as a transformer, or are they in quadrature?
Quadrature

The TX signal looks as though it maintains a steady amplitude.
If the Tx generator has a very low impedance then yes.  But with higher impedance the output of the generator will be loaded down.
The Rx coil will also perceive this RF energy absorption.

I find it difficult to understand how they might cancel each other when according to the scope shot the two events are not coincident in time.
Yes, they are separated, but the spectrum analyzer's reception window is long to catch them both. This way the decreased amplitude during the T1 period will subtract from the amplitude of the T2 period.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Yes, they are separated, but the spectrum analyzer's reception window is long to catch them both. This way the decreased amplitude during the T1 period will subtract from the amplitude of the T2 period.
Two possible solutions come time mind:

1) Significantly reduce the BW on the display, and change the settings to achieve the fastest refresh rate.

2) Design/build/modify a dedicated RF receiver tuned for the frequency of interest and monitor either the direct frequency or mix it down to some pedestrian (IF) frequency and monitor its RSSI.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I didn't like the idea of combining DC and RF in one winding because in general NMR likes the DC field to be perpendicular to the RF field. It is a geometric issue that necessitates a separate DC winding (or a big magnet).
Since the RX coil is situated in quadrature, might it be viable to apply the DC bias field to the RX coil rather than the TX coil?

Also, a decent RF receiver will have about 20dB more sensitivity than a typical spectrum analyzer, and it will have very good selectivity. A SA on the other hand has next to zero selectivity.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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...does the temp need to be maintained throughout entire procedure or can prepared sample be shipped once treated ?
This is simply annealing iron in Argon to prevent oxidation.  So after cooling it can be shipped like any annealed iron.

a wee jewelry/pottery  kiln for your lab would be needed if sample integrity relied upon maintaining temp [could not be shipped
Yes, but I did not have one so I used a cheap toaster oven on a variac ;)
The hardest part is melting and sealing the glass tube with all air in it displaced by Argon and Iron powder.
The Argon needs to be hot during sealing so it does not expand and explode the glass tube later when it is put in the toaster oven in the sealed state.

BTW:  A non-annealed iron powder in a plastic 5cc syringe works, too ...albeit not as well.
   

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Since the RX coil is situated in quadrature, might it be viable to apply the DC bias field to the RX coil rather than the TX coil?
It still would be in the wrong direction as the DC field needs to be perpendicular to both of these coils.
Take a look at this diagram.  The DC field is created by a big steel yoke with magnets (it could be an electromagnet, too).

The good news is that crystalline iron has its own strong internal field (-33 Tesla) so it does not need a field applied from outside...albeit it does help a little with domain alignment.

Also, a decent RF receiver will have about 20dB more sensitivity than a typical spectrum analyzer, and it will have very good selectivity. A SA on the other hand has next to zero selectivity.
That's good to know. Thanks.
How would you implement "receiver blanking" to protect its front end from the powerful Tx pulse?

1) Significantly reduce the BW on the display, and change the settings to achieve the fastest refresh rate.
Even if a spectrum Analyzer could refresh so fast (it cannot) , human eyes would never notice them because the two responses are microseconds apart.

Another question:
How would you help Itsu match his Tx coil to his generator so it receives the most ampturns ?
...we want the HF current to flow through the windings - not through some parallel capacitance.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-29, 09:04:26 by verpies »
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
The good news is that crystalline iron has its own strong internal field (-33 Tesla) so it does not need an external one...albeit it does help a little with domain alignment.
It has a residual magnetic field? Is it externally detectable?

Quote
How would you implement "receiver blanking" to protect its front end from the powerful Tx pulse?
Being that everyone is orthogonal, I don't know if there would be a need. Mutual coupling should be minimal.

Quote
Another question:
How would you help Itsu match his Tx coil to his generator so it receives the most ampturns ?
...we want the HF current to flow through the windings - not through some parallel capacitance.
One way might be to tune the TX coil with a parallel cap, as I suggested before. "Match" implies impedance matching for maximum power transfer to the load (the TX coil). Tuning/matching for 50R and 45.5MHz might turn out to be impractical however.


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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The good news is that crystalline iron has its own strong internal field (-33 Tesla) so it does not need a field applied from outside...albeit it does help a little with domain alignment.

It has a residual magnetic field? Is it externally detectable?
Yes. The intrinsic internal magnetic field inside ferromagnetic domains (and between them) is very strong (-33T) and is detectable in experiments like this, and the intrinsic external field is the conventional ferromagnetic remanence (milliTeslas) due to imperfect domain randomization and nonzero coercivity.
   
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Verpies
quote
The Argon needs to be hot during sealing so it does not expand and explode the glass tube later when it is put in the toaster oven in the sealed state.
end quote

this next part [after the experimenter receives the properly prepared samples]
needs some "splainin"

experimenters want to be certain they have what it takes to complete a successful experiment [besides the prerequisite "big Kahoona's"

is there a link you can post for this protocol or is this a path less traveled ?


   

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Experimenters want to be certain they have what it takes to complete a successful experiment [besides the prerequisite "big Kahoona's"
The theory is in that paper I linked recently but the practical details are not available anywhere together.

I think that investing into a fixture like this is a good idea for anyone serious to play with NMR.  I know Grumage could machine it easily out of a chunk of mild steel over the weekend if he had two N52 100mm NdFeB disk magnets. This fixture is not a prerequisite for iron NMR though.

A scope is s prerequisite together with a signal generator and some wire for small RF coils. If the generator is weak then an RF amp.
IMO having a fixed frequency oscillator is a minimum for CW NMR  but having a variable RF generator like Itsu opens up many exciting possibilities such as pulsed NMR and spin echos. RF switches can help to protect receivers and disconnect the generator from the Tx coil after a pulse, so its low impedance does not load down the oscillations between pulses.

A spectrum analyzer or VNA is nice to have to match coils to the sample holder. Poynt suggested a sensitive ham radio receiver as an alternative.to SA.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-29, 18:14:39 by verpies »
   
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can your sample holding fixture be 3D printed to start with ?[its all the rage here ATM]
I believe I read that the Holders "ferrous" properties were not as important for FE experiments ?

also what is actually holding the sample .... can it be held too tight [or hinder the effect ?]
your design does imply a very strong structure ...[which plastic is not

sorry if these are stupid question ...but thats why I get paid the Big Bucs ...[yes a paradox !"]
   

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can your sample holder be 3D printed to start with ?[its all the rage here ATM]
I believe I read that the Holders "ferrous" properties were not as important for FE experiments ?
Yes, the coil and sample holder can be 3D printed in plastic.
However the steel yoke needs to guide the return flux from these big permanent magnets, so it needs to be ferromagnetic.
I found that a good cheap source for a huge yokes like this are stators of old broken industrial motors from a junk yard.  They are laminated, too, ...which is even better. 
They still needs some machining to fit the flat disk magnets inside them (the middle and right versions will work well, re.: the attached diagram).

also what is actually holding the sample .... can it be held too tight [or hinder the effect ?]
No, it cannot be too tight.

your design does imply a very strong structure ...
Well, the big permanent magnets attract themselves with half a ton of force, so it needs to be strong enough to withstand that.  Also, the yoke should have low magnetic reluctance to guide the return flux from these big permanent magnets ...and low reluctance means thick steel.
   

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Buy me a cigar
Perhaps the stator from a large " Universal " motor could be used?

If you left the windings in place you could have a variably controlled magnetic field too!

Cheers Graham.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Grum !  :)

Perhaps the stator from a large " Universal " motor could be used?
Of course...and rust does not even matter.

If you left the windings in place you could have a variably controlled magnetic field too!
Yup
   
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