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2024-11-27, 01:57:39
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Author Topic: High end Energy Storage Methods. (Read 1995 times)

TinMan	High end Energy Storage Methods. « on: 2018-11-26, 14:33:10 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Well as i could not locate a renewable energy section here at OUR,i will post this here. Seems us Aussies are in the lead again. Some new energy storage batteries--flow battery tech,but with a difference. Watch from 7:40 if you do not wish to watch the whole video So Chet,i think we have found a way to store that energy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OHstY_kKUY Can we come up with a simple test model we could put together,as the liquids used are quite easy to obtain. Brad P.S All-please feel free to post here on this thread,any worth while energy storage methods you find. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Centraflow	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #1 on: 2018-11-26, 17:11:47 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Hi Brad Flow batteries have been around for a long time, and they have their own problems. Here is a copy and paste from a scientific paper:- Conventional zinc bromide electrolytes offer low ionic conductivity and often trigger severe zinc dendrite growth in zinc-bromine flow batteries. Here we report an improved electrolyte modified with methanesulfonic acid, which not only improves the electrolyte conductivity but also ameliorates zinc dendrite. Experimental results also reveal that the kinetics and reversibility of Zn2+/Zn and Br2/Br− are improved in this modified electrolyte. Moreover, the battery's internal resistance is significantly reduced from 4.9 to 2.0 Ω cm2 after adding 1 M methanesulfonic acid, thus leading to an improved energy efficiency from 64% to 75% at a current density of 40 mA cm−2. More impressively, the battery is capable of delivering an energy efficiency of about 78% at a current density of as high as 80 mA cm−2 when the electrode is replaced by a thermally treated one. Additionally, zinc dendrite growth is found to be effectively suppressed in methanesulfonic acid supported media, which, as a result, enables the battery to be operated for 50 cycles without degradation, whereas the one without methanesulfonic acid suffers from significant decay after only 40 cycles, primarily due to severe zinc dendrite growth. These superior results indicate methanesulfonic acid is a promising supporting electrolyte for zinc-bromine flow batteries. A lot of porkies in that video I'm afraid! The quote above is as of April this year 2018 from that science paper. I looked at all this some time ago and came up with the SMD to produce pure hydrogen and charge batteries from oxidation by using the oxygen part of the electrolysis. The main problem is to store the hydrogen! but what if we can use the hydrogen straight away? an exothermic reaction with CO2 to make methane which can be easily stored in bottles the same as butane or lpg. The energy is stored in the smd cascade, the oxygen oxidises the nickel hydroxide into nickel hydroxide oxide, and with a carbon counter electrode you have a battery which cascades to the next cell for power + a little extra input from a solar panel. The efficiency comes from the fact you are producing 1.5 times the volume of pure hydrogen for the same input power, 33% comes from oxidation. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

TinMan	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #2 on: 2018-11-27, 11:55:12 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Centraflow on 2018-11-26, 17:11:47 Hi Brad Flow batteries have been around for a long time, and they have their own problems. Here is a copy and paste from a scientific paper:- Conventional zinc bromide electrolytes offer low ionic conductivity and often trigger severe zinc dendrite growth in zinc-bromine flow batteries. Here we report an improved electrolyte modified with methanesulfonic acid, which not only improves the electrolyte conductivity but also ameliorates zinc dendrite. Experimental results also reveal that the kinetics and reversibility of Zn2+/Zn and Br2/Br− are improved in this modified electrolyte. Moreover, the battery's internal resistance is significantly reduced from 4.9 to 2.0 Ω cm2 after adding 1 M methanesulfonic acid, thus leading to an improved energy efficiency from 64% to 75% at a current density of 40 mA cm−2. More impressively, the battery is capable of delivering an energy efficiency of about 78% at a current density of as high as 80 mA cm−2 when the electrode is replaced by a thermally treated one. Additionally, zinc dendrite growth is found to be effectively suppressed in methanesulfonic acid supported media, which, as a result, enables the battery to be operated for 50 cycles without degradation, whereas the one without methanesulfonic acid suffers from significant decay after only 40 cycles, primarily due to severe zinc dendrite growth. These superior results indicate methanesulfonic acid is a promising supporting electrolyte for zinc-bromine flow batteries. A lot of porkies in that video I'm afraid! The quote above is as of April this year 2018 from that science paper. I looked at all this some time ago and came up with the SMD to produce pure hydrogen and charge batteries from oxidation by using the oxygen part of the electrolysis. The main problem is to store the hydrogen! but what if we can use the hydrogen straight away? an exothermic reaction with CO2 to make methane which can be easily stored in bottles the same as butane or lpg. The energy is stored in the smd cascade, the oxygen oxidises the nickel hydroxide into nickel hydroxide oxide, and with a carbon counter electrode you have a battery which cascades to the next cell for power + a little extra input from a solar panel. The efficiency comes from the fact you are producing 1.5 times the volume of pure hydrogen for the same input power, 33% comes from oxidation. Regards Mike No porkies here Mike,as these batteries are in use today,and can be bought right now. https://redflow.com/products/redflow-zcell/ 10kWh,and can be fully discharged daily at a rate of 3Kw. Maybe you misunderstood the video Mike,where this is an electroplating battery,and not a flow battery where the charge is stored in the liquid. A few independent reviews https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/redflows-zinc-bromide-zcell-battery-may-have-the-edge-over-lithium-ion/ Quote: The chemistry of the ZCell battery is very interesting. It is, at its heart, a reversible electroplating machine. When the ZCell is charged, electrical current is sent through the battery which causes zinc to be removed from zinc bromide and electroplated onto plastic electrodes. When the battery is discharged, the opposite happens and zinc is removed from the electrodes and attached to bromine to make zinc bromide and an electrical current is produced. So, yes, I’ve pretty much said you can run a battery off cheap jewellery and galvanized iron. The chemical process is completely reversible, which means the ZCell battery’s energy storage capacity never declines. http://micropowergrids.com.au/_Batterys_Storage/RedFlow/index.html https://mcelectrical.com.au/blog/redflow-zcell-battery-review/ Quote:The Redflow ZCell battery allows a 100 percent discharge. It can be cycled 3000 times at its full capacity of 10kWh. It will take a healthy 3kW of charge and discharge and peak at 5kW. On it’s 30 000th cycle (after 8.2 years if it’s once a day) it will still have a 10kWh discharge capacity. Unlike lead acid and lithium batteries, the ZCell battery capacity is apparently not affected by degradation. We could build these at home without much trouble. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Centraflow	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #3 on: 2018-11-27, 12:20:43 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Hi Brad They all work the same, just some are a little better than others. Here is the Wiki blurb on these batteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E2%80%93bromine_battery I don't agree on all that is put in this as it seems there was a little biasing towards that company, wiki asks for citations as well!!!! If you look at the down side, not all is rosey. The gel advance from Aus university is better, and the quote I posted before. The biggest concern is dentrit of the zinc plating, always has been, and the membranes are expensive to replace. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

Centraflow	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #4 on: 2018-11-27, 12:36:26 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Here is another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ-Af26pmJA Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

TinMan	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #5 on: 2018-11-27, 13:10:52 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Centraflow on 2018-11-27, 12:20:43 Hi Brad They all work the same, just some are a little better than others. Here is the Wiki blurb on these batteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E2%80%93bromine_battery I don't agree on all that is put in this as it seems there was a little biasing towards that company, wiki asks for citations as well!!!! If you look at the down side, not all is rosey. The gel advance from Aus university is better, and the quote I posted before. The biggest concern is dentrit of the zinc plating, always has been, and the membranes are expensive to replace. Regards Mike I dont think they all work the same. Some flow batteries store the charge in the Elite it self,where as the Zcell plates the membranes with a zinc plating when being charged,and then that zinc dissolves back into the Elite when discharged. So it is basically a galvanic battery. Im looking at the pro's and con's of the Zcell to that of other high end batteries. Lets put it up against the best--the LG Chem Resu 10 LG Zcell Battery type Lithium-ion Flow zinc-bromide Cost $7655.00 $12600.00 Nominal storage 9.8kWh 10kWh Usable storage 8.8kWh 10kWh Pro's Can be used in both off-grid Safe chemistry and hybrid setups, (no fire danger compared to lithium ion compact size, modular expansion. batteries), 100% discharge temperatures up to 50 degrees C Fully recyclable Cons Battery is warranted to 45ºC Heavy. ambient only partly recyclable Requires a maintenance cycle once a week or so, Power-- 5kW steady, 7kW peak (3 seconds) 3kW steady, 5kW peak Round trip efficiency-- 95% 80% Life output-- 60% capacity at 10 Warranted total energy years or 30,000 kWh throughput 36,500kW at 10 years Total warranted -- 24,300 36,500 kWh (1 cycle per day) I like these bits about the Zcell 1-fully recyclable 2-100% discharge without damage 3-no fire risk at all. 4-100% output after 10 years,or 36,500kWh Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #6 on: 2018-11-27, 13:17:38 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Centraflow on 2018-11-27, 12:36:26 Here is another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ-Af26pmJA Regards Mike Ah,thats what i was talking about. The flow batteries shown in that video,stores the energy in the electrolite it self ---from 9:30 in the video The Zcell stores the energy on the membranes in the form of a zinc coating--so different type of flow battery. The Zcell is (like i said before),a galvanic battery. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Centraflow	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #7 on: 2018-11-27, 16:07:17 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Quote from: TinMan on 2018-11-27, 13:17:38 Ah,thats what i was talking about. The flow batteries shown in that video,stores the energy in the electrolite it self ---from 9:30 in the video The Zcell stores the energy on the membranes in the form of a zinc coating--so different type of flow battery. The Zcell is (like i said before),a galvanic battery. Brad From 17:40 in the video. Alkaline flow batteries plate the metal (zinc in this case) from the electrolyte onto the electrode. It is just a chemical reaction depending whether power is applied or extracted, many different combinations of metal can be used, and will give different voltages depending on the eV delta value. Metal to salt and salt to metal, depending it is charging or not. A flow battery is still a battery, just that the amount of electrolyte is increased by pumping to and from tanks which store the metal salt. The big problem is dentite build up with so much metal salt available. This means the battery has to be discharged 100% every 2-3 days to remove ALL the metal build up, this means you have to have a system where you have enough power from your panels to supply your house and charge the batteries at the same time when your batteries are 100% depleted for metal removal. Beware of the croc's I hope you watch Robert Murry Smith'S channel, he is about to go into production with an all carbon battery, now that is something to talk about Rob is a friend and a bloody good battery chemist. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

TinMan	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #8 on: 2018-11-28, 09:14:50 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Centraflow on 2018-11-27, 16:07:17 From 17:40 in the video. Alkaline flow batteries plate the metal (zinc in this case) from the electrolyte onto the electrode. It is just a chemical reaction depending whether power is applied or extracted, many different combinations of metal can be used, and will give different voltages depending on the eV delta value. Metal to salt and salt to metal, depending it is charging or not. A flow battery is still a battery, just that the amount of electrolyte is increased by pumping to and from tanks which store the metal salt. The big problem is dentite build up with so much metal salt available. This means the battery has to be discharged 100% every 2-3 days to remove ALL the metal build up, this means you have to have a system where you have enough power from your panels to supply your house and charge the batteries at the same time when your batteries are 100% depleted for metal removal. Beware of the croc's I hope you watch Robert Murry Smith'S channel, he is about to go into production with an all carbon battery, now that is something to talk about Rob is a friend and a bloody good battery chemist. Regards Mike Yes,always keep an eye on what Rob is doing. What ever happened to the electric car venture? Could we use S/S plates,and use on as the anode,and one as the cathode? Will zinc take to S/S ? Going to try plating a S/S sheet tonight. I think my HHO cell would make a great flow battery--thoughts?. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Centraflow	Re: High end Energy Storage Methods. « Reply #9 on: 2018-11-28, 17:13:44 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	It's on the back burner atm, getting production up and running is more important. The type of battery is the same. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

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