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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Steven Mark's TPU > Reverse Engineering The Large TPU
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img  ion
Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « on: 2010-08-26, 22:12:52 »
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This thread will attempt to derive a schematic from what is seen in the videos regarding the large TPU (LTPU) also referred to as the SM17.

I posted this a while back on OU but it was quickly forgotten and buried amidst the speculation. Hopefully that won't happen here and the subject can be revived.

I will try to adhere to an interpretation of the pictorial drawing supplied by Wattsup and my own observations from the video stills. He has done an excellent job of creating the pictorial. This probably was a formidable task for him and I welcome that he make any corrections so we can bring this up to date.

I will not engage in any wild theories of operation, just a "what you see is what you get" schematic.

While it would be nice to have a working theory as a starting point, sometimes you just have to go back to basics and get into the mind of the designer from what he actually built.

The arguments have all been made regarding diodes vs. resistors, CMC's or no CMC's etc.

Since everyone sees something different, I would hope they would start their own thread with their interpretation regarding what they see rather than argue on this thread.

Finally I will add some thoughts regarding what I think may be happening or some rationale for having drawn the schematic as I have.

First, here is Wattsup's excellent pictorial view and below that the derived schematic
« Last Edit: 2010-08-26, 22:56:40 by ION »


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #1 on: 2010-08-26, 23:31:28 »

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SM17 pictures:
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #2 on: 2010-08-27, 00:52:41 »
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Thanks To Grumpy for posting these crisp screen shots.

We will use them as a reference for future discussion.

By the way, I must admit the schematic is incomplete. It also contains a few errors, but these will be corrected on the next rev.

Also there are no "feeds" or "returns" shown for some coils as these are unknowns.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-27, 18:24:18 by ION »


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #3 on: 2010-08-27, 01:08:33 »
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@ION

Just to let you know on that schematic I made, the toggle switches (10) (11) presently show a small red wire going from one to the other. I now know that red wire from (10) should go instead to the potentiometer (9) thus one of the wires (34) or (35) is not required. So the left toggle switch (10) is in series with the pot (9). I wonder what type of power can go through that pot without toasting it?

Also on the toggle switch (10) is shown only two wires but there are three, two on one side and one on the other side.



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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #4 on: 2010-08-27, 01:34:38 »
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Wattsup

Thanks for pointing out the corrections to be made, and thanks also for your effort in making this possible. I will make the corrections on the next rev, which may be down the road a bit as more is uncovered.

Is it possible to upgrade your pictorial so that all is in agreement? Thanks in advance if possible, but it is not a rush item.

Edit: Here is Wattsup's text description of his observations that accompanies the SM17 WD-1 pictorial diagram.
This will also be used as primary reference material.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-27, 13:28:56 by ION »


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #5 on: 2010-08-27, 13:42:51 »
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Critical Observation #1

This is perhaps  the single most important observation

We see four wires emerging from the center of the small toroidal inductor on the left. This is the left bundle (5) wound from the outside back of theTPU.  Notice that it shoots straight up out of the TPU then arcs into the small toroidal inductor

We see four wires wound from the inside back (4) of the TPU going into another small toroidal inductor on the right. These wires again shoot straight up out of the TPU before arching into the center of the small toroidal inductor.

From the way the wires appear it is reasonable to assume these are the winding starts and ends of the same four wires. In schematic form this is shown as inductors L3, L4, L5, L6, (the TPU circumferential winding) terminated with transformers (the small toroidal inductors).

This observation is clearly seen in SM17 screenshots particularly SM17_06 and in Wattsups pictorial.
It is depicted in the central part of the schematic.

In summary, we have a winding of four adjacent wires wound toroidally around the TPU that enter  the centers of the small toroidal inductors. A reasonable assumption would be that the four wires terminate the windings of the small toroidal inductors.

Yellow circles show the wires:
« Last Edit: 2010-08-27, 18:49:45 by ION »


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #6 on: 2010-08-27, 17:54:33 »
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Critical Observation #2

Alongside the two taped bundles that arch up and out of the TPU and go into the small toroidal inductors are the singular wires marked 27 and 28 on Wattsup's pictorial and clearly shown in SM17_06.

Again these wires appear to be start and finish wires that are wound alongside or possibly over the groups of four.

What is interesting is the wire on the right goes under a bit of tape then appears to be soldered to lampcord, the outline of which can be seen under the tape.

The ends of the lampcord appear to be soldered together and to wire 28 which emerges from under the tape. We see this same motiff in the OTPU lampcord.

It is reasonable to assume that the wire that emerges on the left is terminated to the finish of the lampcord in the same manner. Whether or not a delay coil is applied to one of the lampcord pair cannot be determined at this time so we will leave that to speculation down the road.

Additional lampcord is seen to the right of wire 28 under the tape.

The main areas of interest are are circled in yellow in the drawing below:
« Last Edit: 2010-08-27, 23:56:02 by ION »


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #7 on: 2010-08-27, 19:39:17 »

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June 21, 2006 – PM from Mannix

Please post anything you have the desire to.  I am growing somewhat tired of all the web site misgivings I keep reading.  At least, however,  they are no longer reminding you that they know for a fact that I rape little girls when I am not busy being a Moslem extremist. I can tell that a few of them are truly trying to learn something. They are doing something very strange to most, they are listening... When you listen you learn, when you say, yea but what I think is.... you loose.

Have you ever heard of the Geneses system? There is some fellow who is asking people for money to develop what he calls his Geneses system. He sounds very much like a fellow who tried to see one of our demonstrations a few years back. He was very upset and abusive when we refused him a look see. He told us he knew how it worked and that we should pay him for copying his discovery. We asked him to explain how our unit worked and it was very amusing to listen too. Suffice it to say, he never got a penny from us, or anyone else I ever knew about.

About the collector:

It is three separate coils of multi strand copper wire laid one on top of the other, not interleaved. Three is important. You can do many things with three coils. You can run them in parallel, you can run two in series and one in parallel, or etc.You can run a separate frequency into each coil for better control on large power units if need be.  The control wiring is vertically wound in several segments around each of the horizontal collector coils. Other control wires are wound around all of the horizontal collector coils together.

Through the different control wire and coil wire arrangements you can keep complete control of the unit most of the time. However, you must have an emergency KILL switch. A way of cutting off all the control frequencies simultaneity. This kill switch must be, manual and also connected through a heat sensor buried within the collector coil. it should automatically stop the function of the unit before it self destructs on it's own. This is important for obvious reasons. Also the kill switch should also be connected to cut off whenever it measures over voltage. If that should ever happen, you would never have enough time to hit the kill switch before the inevitable explosion occurred.

You know, it is very similar to the idea of a long garden hose. Picture a hose with water in it. If you pick up one end and move along the length of the hose you will move the water constantly along in the direction you are moving. You could also squeeze the hose in the direction to move the water along as well. And you could do both to control the movement of the water more precisely. You can think of the movement of water as the movement of electrons through the collector coils.

I hope the things I share with you give you ideas about how my unit works. As you know, I am a great believer in understanding, not copying.

Sincerely,

SM.
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #8 on: 2010-08-27, 23:54:30 »
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About the collector:

It is three separate coils of multi strand copper wire laid one on top of the other, not interleaved. Three is important. You can do many things with three coils. You can run them in parallel, you can run two in series and one in parallel, or etc.You can run a separate frequency into each coil for better control on large power units if need be.  The control wiring is vertically wound in several segments around each of the horizontal collector coils. Other control wires are wound around all of the horizontal collector coils together.

Yes this is an important quote from SM. I will be very interested in seeing where these three coils show up in our detective work. This would mean maybe six ends exiting somewhere if they are to have the flexibility of series or parallel connection available to the user.

Of course we do not know exactly which unit represents what is being described in the quote, as there were several of the toroidal designs.

Carefully reading the rest of what SM said, like the simultaneous kill switch for two frequencies, heat sensor, and over voltage protector.....these may have been implemented in the unit shown in the UEC video, but not all of these features are in this unit. In the UEC video we see what looks like an indoor/outdoor thermometer (white box) in one of the shots.

For now I would like to focus strictly on what is seen in the video footage that the captures are referenced to.

I don't desire that the thread fray into arguments over interpretations of SM quotes.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-28, 03:13:54 by ION »


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #9 on: 2010-08-28, 05:04:20 »

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Here is a good list of Steven Mark quotes for those who haven't read them.



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"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #10 on: 2010-09-03, 14:07:48 »
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Critical Observation #3

Besides the two wires in #2, there appear to be two very thin wires connecting to the top of the fuseholders.

These wires appear to go straight down and it is not possible to tell if they are ducking into the core or are additional toroidal windings.

Interestingly, the TPU appears to be torn open in this area. I'm guessing that SM had a wire open from overcurrent i.e a solder joint heating up and letting go. The dual fuse holder is probably an afterthought added to protect against a recurrence.

These wires will be shown on an important update to the schematic coming soon, along with other updates and more critical observations.

« Last Edit: 2010-09-03, 14:36:35 by ION »


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #11 on: 2010-09-03, 16:00:57 »
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To ION

Thanks for the inspiration
a couple of things you exposed make more sense to me now,
especially the double toroids, one for each freq maybe? in phase and out of phase,
will have an experiment when im next at the bench and l;et you know if it happens :-)
cheers R.
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #12 on: 2010-09-03, 19:19:25 »
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Hi Rob

Thanks for the comment and for taking the time to read this thread.

I plan on keeping this thread on target i.e. all observations will be from the videos. Any help in this area will be appreciated.

It is probably necessary to build as near a replica as possible to the one shown in the videos, since it has acoustic and gyroscopic properties that are intrinsic to the operation.

I have seen very few people build anything that even remotely resembles the SM17 (LTPU).

It is because of this, it my intention is to glean as many clues as possible from the visuals.

The textual information (or disinformation) will be considered down the road after all visuals have been exhausted.

Thanks for any help you can offer, very interested in your findings.


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #13 on: 2010-09-03, 21:17:29 »

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Are those speaker rings in the area where the TPU is torn open?  There is a space between them.  Aren't these generally made of paper (cardboard) or plastic?
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #14 on: 2010-09-03, 23:42:46 »
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Are those speaker rings in the area where the TPU is torn open?  There is a space between them.  Aren't these generally made of paper (cardboard) or plastic?

Hi G

Not sure what those support rings are made of. Yes, speaker mounting gaskets, the part usually glued to the cone / frame interface is stamped from dense paperboard, but that's not what these hoops are.

 They are not to be confused with the plastic grille used on SPHERIC LABS speakers.

I found out from Jack Durban that they threw away hundreds of the plastic molded rings you see in the OTPU. SM probably grabbed a handful.

This confirmed my suspicions back when I was researching the OTPU. If you look closely at the SPHERIC LABS speakers you can see that the grille assembly was made from a number of molded plastic rings and spacers. Jack told me they always had a problem with the chrome overlays peeling away as is seen in the photos of the speakers.

Every once in a while there are SPHERIC LABS speakers on ebay. When photos are taken with the tops of the grilles removed you can see the rings.

It is a bit humorous to see people still arguing over the material composition of the rings in the OTPU. Is it metal,? Is it an exotic ferrite material? etc. I have to chuckle.

I'm guessing the material in the cutaway of the SM15 is probably wooden embroidery hoops or drum hoops. Or perhaps SM used his jigsaw to cut out some hoops from plywood  or flakeboard.

This is rather easy to do if you use a circle guide.

Summary: Not sure...lots of speculation, nothing definite, but we will find out.


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #15 on: 2010-09-06, 01:56:19 »

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The outer wire appears to be continuous pair.  Like speaker wire or lamp wire.

Collectors in parallel or series, depending on the requirements, or one is  collector and the other is feedback or bias.   Many possibilities.

The hoops - support structure.  If HV was in any of the winding you would not want them to short to the other windings.  Also the density will have a min and max at particular distance based on parameters, but the distance may have been arbitrary based on materials available or ease of assembly.
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #16 on: 2010-09-10, 17:26:19 »

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(09:20:19) Grumpy: anyone on?
(09:21:03) Grumpy: .99: I just tried an idea I had from last night when we were talking about the toroids.
(09:22:05) Grumpy: I took a small toroid with two windings on it and connected a very long coil (long wire length) to onse side and then ran a squarewave thru both windings with common ends connected
(09:23:01) Grumpy: This cause a very interesting change in the waveform. The sq-wv became compressed and also was divided into "bursts" with even spacing
(09:23:32) Grumpy: I think this is a form of compression similar to the bifilar method and this may be how SM actually did it.
(09:23:56) Grumpy: With more delay, the pulses should combine into one big kick
(09:24:17) Grumpy: where in the Hell is evryone!!!?​!?!?!?!
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #17 on: 2010-09-10, 17:37:56 »

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And just like that...a possible answer...not only that but the type we have been looking for.....a simple one!  

Are the windings on the toroid wound kicker style or something else?

This is very interesting G !!  

have you added the extra delay yet?
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #18 on: 2010-09-10, 18:39:26 »

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Disregard that.  Not compression just groups of pulses missing between pulses that show up.  Strange in that it only happens with coils wound from 22 AWG and not with 28 AWG wire.  Tried all sorts of crude delays and didn't see anything.  Peter may want to give it a shout with controlled delay, but I'm thinking it is a dead end.

I came to my own conclusion a long time ago that those little toroidal things are probably only required if ou loop the output back to the controller - for whatever reason - and in a simple sense they could just be isolation transformers for that purpose.  I don't think you need them for the effect or to get usable power.

The black thing under the toroids may be a HV power supply from a copier and that is very interesting.


Now , how is the damn SM17 wound?
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #19 on: 2010-09-10, 18:54:02 »

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Regarding the cutout area where the tape is peeled away:

The outer poloidal winding does not continue through this area, but the inner windings may be there - can't tell. 

I commented yesterday on the shout board that everyone touches the SM17 - sliding it around on a table - so I venture a guess that the outer windings are not pulsed and may be bias (dc powered) or collector wires.   

Lamp cord or heavy speaker wire or zip wire is easy to wind, heavy, and cheap.  Connect in parallel and pass a lot of current easily. 

Might be that the collector can be 1 inch long or all the way around.  Spherics said two copper rods would work.  Red/black wires on the OTPU could be collectors.
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #20 on: 2010-09-10, 21:01:11 »

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Wondering if the little toroids are for regulation of looped-back power to the controller:

Please compare to latest SM17 schematic.
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #21 on: 2010-09-10, 22:31:34 »

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Or the damn things are just common-mode chokes because of the noisy output fed back to the controller.
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #22 on: 2010-09-10, 23:34:02 »
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But look at how they are wired in the SM17. Looks to me like transmission lines terminated with toroidal transformers CMC's. I'm guessing this is a variation of a ring oscillator where isolation and phase reversal is required , hence the toroids. Normally the ring would just be cross connected.

The other winding is used for pulse injection.

Guess is the toroids serve the same purpose mirrors do in a laser or waveguides and cavities in a maser


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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #23 on: 2010-09-11, 00:55:51 »

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Guessing wiring from a video is still guessing.

From a practical perspective: the older smaller TPU's had only one toroid - and probably one collector fed back to the controller.
   
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Re: Reverse Engineering The Large TPU « Reply #24 on: 2010-09-11, 19:54:15 »
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Yes G, guesses from the video are just that, guesses.

Many can interpret what they see and the SM / Mannix text in anyway they like. I wish more folks would start threads to outline and develop their beliefs.

I'm coupling my guesses from the video with my intuition based on a long career as an electronic professional and hobbyist.

I may not agree with others interpretations, but I don't want to argue or disagree (unless asked for my opinion), because no one knows, and therefore everything is a possibility. But there are also probabilities to consider.

I lack the training in advanced physics or advanced engineering degrees to speculate in those areas.

So I will keep it simple, what I see, what I think may be true, what I have experienced in my 6 decades of tinkering around coils, caps, tubes transistors etc. all put together creates a direction.

That direction may lead no where, but I've got to follow my instincts on this one due to lack of better info.

I do a lot of testing of various ideas. I don't report anything unless it is an anomaly (to me at least).

Best of luck in your research.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-11, 20:24:06 by ION »


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