Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries

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Author Topic: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries (Read 11537 times)

PhysicsProf	Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « on: 2018-02-12, 18:01:41 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Starting a thread as I review some of the work of a friend, Russ Gries. Certainly we can ask several questions - but here, the question is - where is the charge stored in a dielectric capacitor? I think the demonstration answers this clearly - something must be stored in the plastic-sheet dielectric. Correct me if I'm wrong - but only after you actually look at the data: https://youtu.be/_cwUUxmDKA4 (I sped it up a bit, so it goes in 3 minutes.) Thanks to Russ Gries for the courageous demonstration! I'm posting this publicly, looking for comments to increase our understanding. « Last Edit: 2018-02-14, 21:32:43 by PhysicsProf »

Grumpy	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #1 on: 2018-02-12, 18:53:30 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Agreed. So, where is the charge stored in a vacuum capacitor?

PhysicsProf	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #2 on: 2018-02-12, 21:05:44 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Hmmm... in a vacuum cap, I think the charge must be stored on the plates - I don't see where else it could be stored. In another Vid, Russ asks about a very large coil of wire, an inductor. A battery is suddenly connected by closing a switch and the current starts to flow. He puts a question this way - what happens when the switch is opened before the current reaches the other terminal on the battery? - or is this a realistic view (is the magnetic field established instantaneously? - I don't think so )? He has a coil there in his lab with 76 MILES of wire!

PhysicsProf	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #3 on: 2018-02-12, 21:08:12 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Here is the link to the original large-cap video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQGd_jYYfqQ I've read a few of the comments; interesting discussion.

Grumpy	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #4 on: 2018-02-12, 22:54:20 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2018-02-12, 21:05:44 Hmmm... in a vacuum cap, I think the charge must be stored on the plates - I don't see where else it could be stored. The "vacuum" has the property of "permittivity", hence it is the "dielectric", which we just agreed stores the "charge" based on the test in the linked video. This is great news. Since the vacuum has the properties of permeability and permittivity, perhaps it can be "engineered" for our benefit. Dr. Harold Puthoff has written about engineering the vacuum. Of course the general consensus is that these properties of the vacuum are "constants, but are they? ------------------------ Puthoff-1_jbisZPE.-final.pdf (150.73 kB - downloaded 130 times.) Puthoff-2012-1204.2184.pdf (569.43 kB - downloaded 133 times.)

PhysicsProf	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #5 on: 2018-02-13, 02:38:57 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Interesting thoughts, Grumpy. I see that Dr Puthoff speaks of the "Polarizable Vacuum"... maybe not so far-fetched after all? hmmm.... I wanted to add this link, in which Russ talks about the gigantic coil (76 miles of wire) and about the time required for a magnetic field to become established after a current begins in such a coil - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KWajzHSylQ

TinselKoala	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #6 on: 2018-02-13, 03:30:46 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Grumpy on 2018-02-12, 22:54:20 The "vacuum" has the property of "permittivity", hence it is the "dielectric", which we just agreed stores the "charge" based on the test in the linked video. This is great news. Since the vacuum has the properties of permeability and permittivity, perhaps it can be "engineered" for our benefit. Dr. Harold Puthoff has written about engineering the vacuum. Of course the general consensus is that these properties of the vacuum are "constants, but are they? No, the dielectric stores _energy_, not charge. The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. Charge is not energy, energy is not charge... although both are conserved quantities. The net quantity of charge in a dielectric is not changed by polarizing it, and is in fact neutral to first order. The net quantity of charge on the plates of a capacitor changes when the cap is charged/discharged. Charge is stored on the plates, energy is stored in the polarization of the dielectric. Unfortunately Gries's demonstrations -- for demonstrations they are, not true experiments -- do not allow distinguishing between the two descriptions (charge on plates, charge on dielectrics). But plenty of true experiments have been done, and if you watch his demonstrations carefully you can see where the holes are that allow his garden-pathing to leak through.

partzman	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #7 on: 2018-02-14, 14:17:52 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018-02-13, 03:30:46 No, the dielectric stores _energy_, not charge. The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. Charge is not energy, energy is not charge... although both are conserved quantities. The net quantity of charge in a dielectric is not changed by polarizing it, and is in fact neutral to first order. The net quantity of charge on the plates of a capacitor changes when the cap is charged/discharged. Charge is stored on the plates, energy is stored in the polarization of the dielectric. Unfortunately Gries's demonstrations -- for demonstrations they are, not true experiments -- do not allow distinguishing between the two descriptions (charge on plates, charge on dielectrics). But plenty of true experiments have been done, and if you watch his demonstrations carefully you can see where the holes are that allow his garden-pathing to leak through. This was my problem in the past. Differentiating between a poled dielectric and a non-poled dielectric in simple electrostatic testing. However, there is one area I would like us to explore and that is "saturated" dielectrics. IOW, a poled dielectric that has ALL it's charge separated and frozen so to speak. I was told years ago by those at APC ceramics that this was possible but I never pursued it. At the time I had an idea for a solid state (no moving parts) electrostatic induction generator and they fabricated some special laminated ceramics under an NDA for me but the device didn't work as I intended. The problem was, balanced unseparated charges still existed in the poled dielectric which allowed normal capacitor action. FWIW, I've attached a general schematic of such a device below. Regards, Pm Edit: I meant to add that if one places a non-polarized dielectric between two plates to create a low value capacitor, then place a charge on said cap, carefully remove and flip dielectric over and place back in between plates, upon discharge one will see the same polarity as was originally used to charge the device. IOW, proof that the charge remains on the plates. If a poled dielectric is used however, then a reverse charge will be seen under the same conditions as above as is seen in Russ's experiments. ------------------------ Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries ESI Rev1.png (21.83 kB, 1086x531 - viewed 544 times.)

PhysicsProf	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #8 on: 2018-02-14, 21:31:38 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	TK: "The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. " Interesting answer - certainly the energy is stored in Ries's case in the polarization of the dielectric. Next let's consider the case of air as the dielectric in a flat-plate capacitor - where is the energy stored?

TinselKoala	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #9 on: 2018-02-14, 22:35:39 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2018-02-14, 21:31:38 TK: "The vacuum is polarizable, just as are dielectrics. Energy is stored in the polarization of vacuum or dielectric materials. Polarized dielectrics _induce_ charge storage on the plates of capacitors, and charged plates of capacitors induce polarization of dielectrics. " Interesting answer - certainly the energy is stored in Ries's case in the polarization of the dielectric. Next let's consider the case of air as the dielectric in a flat-plate capacitor - where is the energy stored? Is the air really the dielectric in a flat plate capacitor? That air is full of vacuum, you know. Or rather, the vacuum between the plates has air in it.

PhysicsProf	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #10 on: 2018-02-19, 15:30:11 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	OK - good point that the dielectric constant for air is only slightly above that for vacuum; as shown in the following table: ------------------------ Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries table of dielectric constants.png (129.2 kB, 521x680 - viewed 531 times.)

Grumpy	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #11 on: 2018-02-20, 16:04:46 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	How is it possible that the vacuum has properties like permittivity and permeability?

TinselKoala	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #12 on: 2018-02-20, 19:13:32 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Grumpy on 2018-02-20, 16:04:46 How is it possible that the vacuum has properties like permittivity and permeability? Ah, now you are getting to the meat of the matter. "Vacuum" means space that has nothing material "as we know it" inside. However, space itself isn't "nothing". It has properties, as you note. This means that the possibility exists that space (or loosely "the vacuum") can be engineered, as per Hal Puthoff and Michael Ibison. Even the hardest laboratory vacuum still has stuff in it (residual gas molecules, EM radiation, etc.) This is also true even for interstellar and intergalactic space. Some people believe that a truly "empty" vacuum, or volume of space, would spontaneously decay and form new particles/radiations from the real ZPE, which is immense.

Grumpy	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #13 on: 2018-02-20, 21:40:12 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Here's a paper posing that gravity changes the properties of space: (attached) Some claim that pictures of UFO's captured a change in the refractive index: http://www.treurniet.ca/trishadows/AtlantaUFO.htm (and referenced links) ------------------------ Gravitational effect on the refractive index.pdf (148 kB - downloaded 466 times.)

TinMan	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #14 on: 2018-02-21, 11:44:13 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018-02-20, 19:13:32 Ah, now you are getting to the meat of the matter. "Vacuum" means space that has nothing material "as we know it" inside. However, space itself isn't "nothing". It has properties, as you note. This means that the possibility exists that space (or loosely "the vacuum") can be engineered, as per Hal Puthoff and Michael Ibison. Even the hardest laboratory vacuum still has stuff in it (residual gas molecules, EM radiation, etc.) This is also true even for interstellar and intergalactic space. Some people believe that a truly "empty" vacuum, or volume of space, would spontaneously decay and form new particles/radiations from the real ZPE, which is immense. With billions of suns(stars) burning away,there will always be photons,and EM radiation filling all of space. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Duncan	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #15 on: 2018-02-22, 07:55:41 »
Hero Member Posts: 703	Were space empty and inert then action and re-action at a distance becomes impossible. Naturally standard physics resists any attempts to question that status. Long ago the anomaly was experimentally demonstrated with a paraconical pendulum explained here http://www.allais.info/ http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/index.htm It perhaps comes as no surprise to those who have researched that the skills needed to physically build something which would react with events far out across free space fell into the lap of an exceptional watchmaker (hence known in free energy circles in Europe simply as 'The watchmaker') Leon Hatem who I write about else where. Here he is many years later https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUGCjq4qQs all to be treated as heretics of course then and now (it seems). This link to an piece I originally read on a website titled ' Was Einstein a shit bag' is copied from a Nexus mag http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/Einstein1.htm well of course I reserve judgement on that. However if he did plagiarise all the great scientists mentioned here, and also intentionally corrupts the conclusions as Prof Allias adamantly tells us he did . we might even have to take the 'bag' bit away from the equasion in due course. kindest regards Duncan « Last Edit: 2018-02-22, 10:45:32 by Duncan » --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

TinMan	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #16 on: 2018-02-22, 11:28:34 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Duncan on 2018-02-22, 07:55:41 Were space empty and inert then action and re-action at a distance becomes impossible. Naturally standard physics resists any attempts to question that status. Long ago the anomaly was experimentally demonstrated with a paraconical pendulum explained here http://www.allais.info/ http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/index.htm It perhaps comes as no surprise to those who have researched that the skills needed to physically build something which would react with events far out across free space fell into the lap of an exceptional watchmaker (hence known in free energy circles in Europe simply as 'The watchmaker') Leon Hatem who I write about else where. Here he is many years later https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcUGCjq4qQs all to be treated as heretics of course then and now (it seems). This link to an piece I originally read on a website titled ' Was Einstein a shit bag' is copied from a Nexus mag http://allais.maurice.free.fr/English/Einstein1.htm well of course I reserve judgement on that. However if he did plagiarise all the great scientists mentioned here, and also intentionally corrupts the conclusions as Prof Allias adamantly tells us he did . we might even have to take the 'bag' bit away from the equasion in due course. kindest regards Duncan Well solar sails work in space !apparently! So,there must be something out there to apply a force on those sails--solar wind they call it lol. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Duncan	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #17 on: 2018-03-06, 13:55:09 »
Hero Member Posts: 703	Mmmm 'apparently' covers a lot of trickery but back to the Prof's topic of charge . I found this bit of video on an old hard drive (I must have thought it worth preserving). It has long since been erased from its original stable on youtube and so I up loaded it again. I still find it odd despite the fact that pretty big capacitors are in sight that sparks seem to appear out in the room and be sucked into the spark gap . trickery ? I dont know but I find it very facinating to watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo6gViPywRI very different sounds,very different effect. kind regards Duncan --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

TinselKoala	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #18 on: 2018-03-06, 19:49:08 »
Group: Guest	The spark images that you see which appear not to be at the location of the actual spark gap are merely artifacts of the digital camera used to make the video. I'm sorry but there is nothing of great significance shown in that video, other than that the presenter doesn't really know what he's doing. The "endothermic/exothermic" "cold electricity" language is just gobbledegook. ------------------------ Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries SparkPositionAnomaly1.png (196.09 kB, 596x465 - viewed 405 times.) Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries SparkPositionAnomaly2.png (166.98 kB, 608x457 - viewed 338 times.) Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries SparkPositionAnomaly3.png (244.72 kB, 512x465 - viewed 361 times.)

Duncan	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #19 on: 2018-03-06, 20:44:42 »
Hero Member Posts: 703	Tom foolery then TK? what a shame it came with a little circuit and quite a few postings (of twaddle??) I've just searched the web page out that the video originally came from. - so for your inspection https://semresearch.wordpress.com/index/cold-electricity/ kind regards Duncan --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

TinselKoala	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #20 on: 2018-03-06, 23:27:07 »
Group: Guest	We are still waiting for someone reliably to demonstrate "frosting" or even anomalous slight cooling of electrodes or other components from any kind of "cold electricity" apparatus. And that "genesis project" website is a real hoot. Antigravity, currents travelling backwards in time, and many other remarkable and unproven, and even undemonstrated claims abound.

muDped	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #21 on: 2018-03-07, 00:47:55 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: Tinsel Koala We are still waiting for someone reliably to demonstrate "frosting" or even anomalous slight cooling of electrodes or other components from any kind of "cold electricity" apparatus. There have been instances where such "cooling" has occurred but it cannot be reliably made manifest. It happens sporadically and it is fleeting. The only sensible conclusion which may be arrived at is that it originates in another dimension and it is made to show up from time to time in our dimension by those who reside outside it. It is para-normal. Apart from Daniel Pomerleau who can apparently cause the strange electricity to manifest from simple coils it seems that nobody else has been given the ability. Although there are some magicians in Asia who are able to make electricity manifest from their bodies. Again, para-normal phenomena. Spooks. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

TinselKoala	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #22 on: 2018-03-07, 02:14:47 »
Group: Guest	No, that is not the only "sensible conclusion".

muDped	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #23 on: 2018-03-07, 23:10:45 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: Tinsel Koala No, that is not the only "sensible conclusion". Continue please... --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

ion	Re: Where is the charge stored? and other investigations by Russ Gries « Reply #24 on: 2018-03-08, 02:32:35 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Search "electrostatic cooling" There is still controversy whether it is due to ionic wind vortices or electron stripping or a combination of the two. The attached paper favors the ionic wind model but there are other papers that claim the electron stripping model. If you cup your hand near a needle emitter of high positive potential the cooling effect is rapid and pronounced. Be sure to use a highly current limited HV source (with a high megohm resistor) or low current electrostatic source. Regards ------------------------ US4924937.pdf (727.19 kB - downloaded 120 times.) --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

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