Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe

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Smudge	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #50 on: 2018-02-04, 17:03:09 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	Evolvingape wrote Quote COP=Infinity is a nonsense term that simply means energy is coming from an external source that can be utilised at a constant rate, we call that the environment. Since we have such systems why do you say it is nonsense? My colleague in the USA built an automatic test set that removed the drudgery of performing a large number of test runs, such as covering a wide frequency range. It calculated COP for each run. On some of the runs the COP became significantly greater than unity and even went negative. So what is a negative COP? It is when the system not only delivers output power but also returns a negative input power, i.e. it also feeds energy back to the source. Is that nonsense? As a matter of interest the poor sampling rate gave results that looked odd, that is until they were plotted as CONP, coefficient of non-performance which is simply the reciprocal of COP. Then it became a smooth curve passing through zero at the point of infinite COP. So IMO infinite COP is no more nonsense than say the tangent-of-an-angle function which also passes through infinity to become negative. Smudge

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #51 on: 2018-02-05, 21:22:12 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Quote from: Smudge on 2018-02-04, 17:03:09 Since we have such systems why do you say it is nonsense? I saw your respectful message when I logged in last night to let my friends know I was about to take some R&R leave. Your question deserves a full and complete answer, please see links for equations that are not embedded: http://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Second_law_of_thermodynamics Coefficient of performance (K) is a number that describes the effectiveness of refrigerators or air conditioners, by comparing the heat that is dispelled from it to the work that had to be done to do so. It is similar to the thermal efficiency of heat engines, as they both relate what benefits you are getting to what you had to pay.[2] The coefficient of performance is given by the equation: where:[2] is the heat dispelled from the refrigerator is the work input to the system is the coefficient of performance A better refrigerator will require less work to remove a given amount of heat, thus having a larger coefficient of performance. From the equation, it is clear that if no work was input to the system (Win=0) the coefficient would equal infinity. This would constitute a perfect refrigerator, which is forbidden by the Second law of thermodynamics. Hence, .[2] Maximum Coefficient of Performance Just like there is a thermal Carnot efficiency, there is also a Carnot coefficient of performance, which describes the maximum K value for a refrigerator. This is given by the equation: where:[2] is the temperature of the environment to which the heat is dispelled to is the temperature of the space to cool off is the maximum coefficient of performance ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Figure 1 The coefficient of performance of a system to be cooled refrigerator air conditioning is the ratio of heat out of the system to the work put into the system.png (45.31 kB, 400x455 - viewed 738 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #52 on: 2018-02-05, 21:26:27 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Second law of thermodynamics The Second Law of Thermodynamics describes the limitations of heat transfer. Most importantly, it sets out the specific idea that heat cannot be converted entirely to mechanical energy. This important idea can be stated in numerous ways, but there are 3 that will be discussed in detail. These are: Waste Heat Statement, Refrigeration Statement Disorder Statement Waste Heat Statement The Waste Heat statement, formally known as the "Kelvin-Planck statement" is as follows:[2] "It is impossible to extract an amount of heat, represented as QH, from a hot reservoir and use it all to do work." This is a statement of the thermal efficiency in heat transfer, given by the equation in Figure 2. This statement is important to understand in terms of practicality of heat engines. Waste heat is necessary for all engines, and the amount of work that is done by the input of heat gives the thermal efficiency of a system. Using an analysis of heat and work on an ideal engine, the maximum amount of work that can be achieved by a thermodynamic exchange between two specific temperatures is given by the Carnot efficiency. Although the Carnot efficiency can never be reached in reality, it is useful to compare to when looking at thermal efficiency of an engine. For a more detailed study of this version of the second law please see the hyperphysics page on the second law: heat engines. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html#c1 ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Figure 2 It is impossible for the thermal efficiency of an engine to be 100 percent where all of the heat from the hot body would be transferred to useful work.gif (25.73 kB, 601x229 - viewed 679 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #53 on: 2018-02-05, 21:29:13 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Refrigeration Statement Also known as the "Clausius statement", this is fundamental to how a refrigeration system works: "Heat will always flow spontaneously from hotter substances to colder ones". This is known as the Clausius statement, and explains why an ice cube will melt when placed in a bowl of hot water but ice will not form from water outside on a hot day. Everyday experience certainly supports this statement, but it is a deep physical concept limiting what's possible with energy. The second law of thermodynamics claims that it is impossible for heat to spontaneously flow from a cold body to a hot body, but it can move in that way if some form of work is done.[3] This is how the refrigeration process works, and an example can be seen in Figure 1. Refrigerators work by transferring heat from the cold regions inside of the device to hot regions outside of it, thereby making the cold regions even cooler. This is how refrigerators work to keep food inside of them cool, and why they can be felt blowing hot air out of their vents.[3] The right part of the image in Figure 2 and 3 describe the impossible scenarios that the second law forbids, so a perfect refrigerator is analogous to a system's heat transfer operating at 100% efficiency. In Figure 3, the refrigerator takes some heat from the cold reservoir, , does some work on it, , and rejects some heat to the hot reservoir. Therefore the net effect of the refrigerator is to make the cold reservoir colder by removing heat from it and moving that heat to the hot reservoir. Due to this, a refrigerator is essentially a heat engine that runs in reverse. By analyzing how well a refrigerator can cool the cold reservoir, refrigerators carry with them a coefficient of performance. This statement is nicely captured in the humorous song 'The First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics' by Flanders and Swann. For a more rigorous (but not as funny) write up of the refrigeration statement of the second law please see the hyperphysics Second Law:refrigerator page. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html#c3 ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Figure 3 The Clausius statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics forbids heat to flow from cold to hot unless external work is done.gif (23.56 kB, 600x200 - viewed 660 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #54 on: 2018-02-05, 21:31:10 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Disorder Statement Another statement, perhaps the most crucial in terms of understanding why the Clausius and Kelvin-Planck statements are true is about entropy (which can be thought of as disorder):[4] "The entropy of a closed system can never decrease." It is important to emphasize that this statement refers to a "closed system", meaning that there are no external influences on the system. This is due to the fact that an open system can have its entropy decreased, as this ability to decrease the entropy is how refrigerators work! Or for that matter, the Earth is an open system because the of solar energy to the Earth contributes to the Earth's energy flows. Entropy is essentially a measure of "disorder", so the higher the entropy, the more disorder the system has. This can be seen when shaking bricks in a can: the bricks are more likely to form a loose pile than to turn into a house. See the hyperphysics page on entropy for a more detailed discussion. Associated with entropy is the idea of "energy quality". Heat is a low-quality energy, whereas mechanical energy is a high-quality energy. Seen in Figure 4, the energy quality decreases as entropy increases. Therefore in general, since entropy naturally increases, energy quality will deteriorate. The association between an increase in entropy and a decrease in energy quality explains why all of the energy in fuels cannot be converted into mechanical energy. It is possible to burn fuel, therefore directly converting all its energy to low-quality heat, but this low-quality heat cannot then be turned fully into high-quality mechanical energy or electricity.[4] For a more detailed description of the entropy statement of the second law of thermodynamics please see the hyperphysics page on the second law: entropy. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html#c4 ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Figure 4 With entropy decreasing as temperature increases it can be shown that the a violation of this entropy statement would violate the Clausius statement of the Second Law.png (24.17 kB, 350x317 - viewed 675 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #55 on: 2018-02-05, 22:04:17 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Quote from: evolvingape on 2018-02-05, 21:22:12 From the equation, it is clear that if no work was input to the system (Win=0) the coefficient would equal infinity. This would constitute a perfect refrigerator, which is forbidden by the Second law of thermodynamics. http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/022503.htm Now observe Collins's profound assumption that a coefficient of performance (which is the useful energy output or work output divided by the energy that is input by the operator only) that is greater than 1.0 is impossible and would constitute a dirty old "perpetual motion machine" of the false premise kind he still advocates illogically. There went windmills, solar cells, heat pumps, water wheels, sail boats, gliders, etc. All are impossible by Collins' assumption. Well, a windmill, a waterwheel, and a common solar cell all exist and have COP = infinity! The operator himself inputs zero energy input to each one of them, but all the energy required for the work output (and the losses due to inefficiencies) is indeed freely input by the environment. The EFFICIENCY of a system is defined as the useful energy or useful work output divided by ALL the energy that is input, whether by the environment, operator, or both. The efficiency of a common solar cell may be—e.g.—only 17%, which means it wastes some 83% of all the energy the environment freely inputs to it. However, the operator inputs nothing at all, so the COP = (the finite energy output of the system, i.e., 17% of the environment's energy input), expressed in joules per second, for example, divided by (the zero input of the operator), which yields a COP = infinity. A common home heat pump usually will have an EFFICIENCY of 50% or less, but will have a nominal COP = 4.0 under nominal conditions; the extra energy is just extracted from the atmosphere. That is certainly not a "perpetual working machine with no energy input", but it also certainly has a working COP>1.0, which is why it is so widely used. It's CHEAPER if you get some of the necessary energy input from the environment, and—as in the case of the windmill—it's even cheaper if you get ALL of the necessary energy input freely from the environment. A very high efficiency windmill, e.g., may have an efficiency of 55%, about tops. So it wastes 45% of the input wind energy, but does convert the other 55% into useful output energy or work. However, its COP = infinity, because again the operator inputs nothing at all, but gets out free work continuously from the unwasted energy that the environment inputs. So yes, one can have a "free energy lunch" if the environment freely provides the energy, as it does for the windmill, solar cell, waterwheel, sailboat, charge, etc. --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #56 on: 2018-02-05, 22:22:03 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Please bear in mind that I did not introduce Tom Bearden to this conversation.. The issue is that there are two frames of reference here.. There is the harvesting of the environmental energy at a COP<1 which Tom elegantly explains, and constitutes free energy available to do work for the user's benefit. There is also the issue of a thermodynamically closed system which in order to do work of benefit to the user, must exceed COP>1 and is commonly called overunity. Machines of this type do not exist as they would violate the 2LoT. The fundamental issue is that of conflation of two very similar situations.. Someone who possesses a machine that they do not have to input energy into to operate and reaps the benefits of work done indeed does have a COP=infinity machine from one frame of reference, but from the other it operates at a COP<1.. The confusion of the terms and the applicable frames of reference is why I say that the term COP=infinity is a nonsense, often touted to sell 'overunity' machines that are no such thing.. --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #57 on: 2018-02-05, 22:37:12 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	A raised weight accumulator that is lifted via pneumatic air compression from the air chamber below, the chamber below the weight is a compressed air storage reservoir. Once the weight has been raised it is locked in place with solid mechanical stops. This allows the air to be released in a controlled flow through a turbine doing work and converting to electricity. The accumulator lower chamber is now at atmospheric pressure and as it is at a height just below the water intake level it can be filled by evacuating the remaining air to atmosphere. The raised weight stops can now be released creating hydraulic pressure to drive a hydraulic motor / generator and generating electricity. The gpe of the raised weight has been spent, and the process resets to starting conditions to be repeated. Multiple accumulators can be linked in parallel for an extended, more efficient, run time through the pressure regulator.. The air pressure in the underground chamber can be used as normal once the energy storage in the gravitational field has been accomplished. Any questions ? I will answer them after my week off.. ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe HydroPneumatic Energy Storage Plant.png (225.67 kB, 1152x648 - viewed 852 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

Duncan	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #58 on: 2018-02-06, 07:07:35 »
Hero Member Posts: 703	Re - COP there is nothing to disagree with - never was . you have pointed out the conflict yourself and were obviously always aware of it. As far as I am concerned in this context, (and probably any other apart from perhaps creation itself) there is no such thing as over unity I'm also non to keen on the term 'free lunch' that in itself was a phrase and terminology introduced by a Rockefeller educational think tank as part of the psychological conditioning of us all along "with you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink" "you can't buck city hall" and a lot of other bollix along with all the rest of the crap these horrible shits came out with,. as explained by Stan Meyer shortly before his public execution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZM22750v5M Stan had taken out patents in many other countries which made the usual gagging process useless. outright murder of the researcher has gone out of fashion now. I assume because the publicity in the computer age does more harm than good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuH72G5qXow land of the free all right - if its your mortal coil you wish to be free of! As for 'bringing up' Tom Bearden - The guy isn't vomit , he was an acknowledged and respected researcher even if some might personally disagree with parts of his theory or practice, to wit COP approaching infinity. I didn't 'bring Tom up' I referenced his teaching work. which is there for anyone to see on his DVD series in perpetuity. There is still a deal of events going on in what you like to call 'the environment' the we do not fully understand, which really means don't understand at all ! There is no unified field theory and nobody really knows what electricity is. gravity isn't understood and likewise the huge irrigation machine I described earlier. Neither is very much known regarding the huge Telluric currents circulating below us. I should qualify 'not known' rather with not taught to any of us sheeple. That all these things are there working can't be denied however access to the science and theory can and is denied. The closest we sheeple get to that knowledge is to be tricked into paying for all the research. The concept of COP >1 is IMHO the first step in a way machinery might be tested to see if it is engaged and benefiting from any ambient source, I'm happy to work on the premise there is no such thing as 'over unity' after all even Tesla said Ere many generations pass, our machinery will be driven by a power obtainable at any point in the universe. This idea is not novel...We find it in the delightful myth of Antheus, who derives power from the earth; we find it among subtle speculations of one of your splendid mathematicians...throughout space there is energy. Is this energy static, or kinetic? If static our hopes are in vain; if kinetic - and this we know it is, for certain - then it is a mere question of time when men will succeed in attaching their machinery to the very wheel work of nature. he didn't say there isn't a wheel at all ! I like the raised weight concept. I did suggest a surface tank earlier simply because in a small domestic system which I envisaged a single bore hole is obviously usually going to be preferable. The weight refinement didn't cross my mind . evolving ape enjoy your holiday! kindest regards Duncan --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

forest	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #59 on: 2018-02-06, 09:52:18 »
Sr. Member Posts: 472	Tesla described the best way of obtaining energy from ambient in hist Century Magazine 1900 article. it was wrongly understood as a heat pump engine. No, he just secretly wrote that magnetic field is a steady state flow of pure vacuum energy. Tom Bearden said it also, but his interpretation was incorrect - the dipole is only magnetic and that dipole is broken in every generators.

Grumage	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #60 on: 2018-02-06, 12:14:05 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Quote from: evolvingape on 2018-02-05, 22:37:12 A raised weight accumulator that is lifted via pneumatic air compression from the air chamber below, the chamber below the weight is a compressed air storage reservoir. Once the weight has been raised it is locked in place with solid mechanical stops. This allows the air to be released in a controlled flow through a turbine doing work and converting to electricity. The accumulator lower chamber is now at atmospheric pressure and as it is at a height just below the water intake level it can be filled by evacuating the remaining air to atmosphere. The raised weight stops can now be released creating hydraulic pressure to drive a hydraulic motor / generator and generating electricity. The gpe of the raised weight has been spent, and the process resets to starting conditions to be repeated. Multiple accumulators can be linked in parallel for an extended, more efficient, run time through the pressure regulator.. The air pressure in the underground chamber can be used as normal once the energy storage in the gravitational field has been accomplished. Any questions ? I will answer them after my week off.. Nice one Rob.... --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Centraflow	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #61 on: 2018-02-06, 17:12:39 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Quote from: evolvingape on 2018-02-05, 22:37:12 A raised weight accumulator that is lifted via pneumatic air compression from the air chamber below, the chamber below the weight is a compressed air storage reservoir. Once the weight has been raised it is locked in place with solid mechanical stops. This allows the air to be released in a controlled flow through a turbine doing work and converting to electricity. The accumulator lower chamber is now at atmospheric pressure and as it is at a height just below the water intake level it can be filled by evacuating the remaining air to atmosphere. The raised weight stops can now be released creating hydraulic pressure to drive a hydraulic motor / generator and generating electricity. The gpe of the raised weight has been spent, and the process resets to starting conditions to be repeated. Multiple accumulators can be linked in parallel for an extended, more efficient, run time through the pressure regulator.. The air pressure in the underground chamber can be used as normal once the energy storage in the gravitational field has been accomplished. Any questions ? I will answer them after my week off.. Now that is clever Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

Duncan	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #62 on: 2018-02-07, 04:41:54 »
Hero Member Posts: 703	yes indeed I agree Mike this is an ingenious idea but yes I do have a few questions and it will irk to wait weeks for an answer but perhaps some one else may see the answers and chip in I'm sure Bob won't mind, I suspect a problem (but perhaps not insurmountable) The whole operation of this compressor seems to rely on keeping a pressured air pocket in place .It seems great consideration would have to be given to putting that air pocket in place when the machine is first started. A worrying time I would think if you were actually at one of these sites especially if 'as drawn' there is no way to drain the thing. Once (and if) flooded the thing would become worthless or do I visualize that wrong? A 300 foot shaft a nit wit on the end of a rope hauling buckets for ever and ever is what I see. Trying to develop an air pocket. so whilst the thinking is applauded and exactly the original and constructive approach needed and I do hope I'm seeing this wrong isn't flooding the chamber et al a one shot suicide deal ? I view this compressor as something akin to a stage in an RF circuit. there are matching inputs and outputs to consider and particularly maximum power transfer (in this case air) but still time/pulse/frequency ergo hetrodyne. This is a freely operating machine and as I view it the task at hand is to contrive to make it more efficient . we are a little at variance Bob regarding COP but I'm sure understand each others perspective which is all that matters just at the moment. The task at hand (as I see it) is to try and design a small scale version of this machine that would supply a home (say a constant 3KW) from a very moderate stream. preferably by just sticking one bore hole down . The figures indicate it should be very viable even at 86% efficiency, If by design we could improve that efficiency well the worlds our lobster, isn't it ? The depth of bore hole and diameter reduce dramatically. whilst what you draw is ingenious and 'space saving' and as I see it quite capable of running on air alone I don't see it as being any more efficient . here this term efficiency becomes more fluid Bob (excuse the pun) given limitless flow free ground and labour Chaz Taylors only consideration was height of shafts hence his efficiency tallies w.r.t (it has to there's nothing else to consider.) To put this in some sort of context at least you'll probably follow Mike your obviously acutely aware of things 'water fracture' The bit of your system I continued working on using your frequency relationship becomes non-ohmic or perhaps the wording should be non-faradaic regardless of the term no longer a straight line graph but an acute curve. There is then something to use (or abuse if your the opposition) . Its a physical shape space relationship in Peter Davy's machine and I'm pretty sure It will be here too if we get to the heart of entrainment small domestic plants is a different matter - size matters if the system is going to break the strangle hold for the individual or small holder Kindest regards Duncan « Last Edit: 2018-02-07, 10:14:13 by Duncan » --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

Grumage	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #63 on: 2018-02-07, 14:27:53 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	My thoughts and conclusions. Whilst the Trompe is yet another of mans ingenious methods of utilising environment energy the systems installed at the Ragged Chute and Victoria mine were used because of A. Hydroelectric power was in its infancy and B. The mines were originally steam powered and the conversion to compressed air would have been child's play. Let's consider Duncan's 50 metre bore hole suggestion. We definitely need a hight differential so let's go with 47 M outlet. This will give us a pressure of 4.16 BAR or 66.86 PSI. For a 3 KW output we're going to need 6 HP of motive power from some sort of air driven motor. Perhaps we could convert a steam engine or even a car engine but we need to know the volume of compressed air that will give us a continuous 6 HP at the alternator shaft. More to come, school run..... Cheers Graham. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Duncan	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #64 on: 2018-02-07, 15:53:05 »
Hero Member Posts: 703	love it Graham but do lets plug Charles Taylors figures in along the line . he's been there done it got the T shirt . ho hum - and wrote a little book. this is a little bit of it. otherwise I don't know anywhere to obtain figures regards entrainment no ones attempted to engeneer it for many a year. kind regards Duncan --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

Grumage	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #65 on: 2018-02-07, 17:00:24 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	To continue. You’d have thought that with over 300 years of the “ steam engine “ that there would be an easy to use conversion table you could punch in a few numbers and voila, an answer. No such luck. Can we use PLAN/33,000 ? Where... P pressure in PSI L length of stroke A area of piston N speed in RPM. We need to find out how much air we need to drive our engine. I have a feeling that it’s going to be much more than a small system could generate. Perhaps a member with a mathematical mind could do the sums based upon a working pressure of 66.86 PSI ? We’re looking for the CFM of air at 66.86 PSI to generate 6 HP at 3000 RPM. Cheers Graham. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #66 on: 2018-02-10, 12:53:15 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	When considering COP=Infinity I always include the energy required to construct the machine, and the energy required to maintain it. From this frame of reference it is impossible for Energy In to equal zero. No matter how long you let the machine run for, harvesting environmental energy, it can never mathematically reach zero but it will get ever closer to it without ever reaching it. This is why I consider COP=Infinity to be a nonsense, and I don't believe we have COP=Infinity machines.. and we never have had them. That's all I am going to say about that. Regarding my previous quick sketch let me add some detail. The integration of hydro-pneumatic generators to a Trompe system is primitive hhop gen 3: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.msg50247#msg50247 To simplify: The Trompe requires an approximate 20% drop in head height from the water source. It requires a long horizontal section to allow the air to separate from the water. I do not believe a compact Trompe can be made and shortening the horizontal section using just a bore hole will represent spongy water and very inefficient machine. This is a large scale MegaWatt generating power plant only which means you will have to cooperate to build one and share the output from it. Using the figures we have 117 psi of compressed air is available at a high mass flow rate. Converting 117 psi to head height we get about 78 meters. 117 / 15 = 7.8 We can use 117 psi of air pressure to pump water 78 meters vertically. Our bucket piston can therefore be about 70 meters conservatively accounting for losses. Converting 70 meters to feet we get about 230 feet. This will fit nicely with the depth of the horizontal air chamber of the Trompe. We now have a vertical borehole 70 meters deep with the top of it 70 meters above ground level (water inlet level), so a 140 meter tall structure with half of it buried below ground. The bucket piston is 70 meters tall and lets give it a piston diameter of 2 meters (1 meter radius). We now need to convert psi on a 2 meter diameter piston to force: https://www.sensorsone.com/piston-cylinder-pressure-and-diameter-to-force-calculator/ 258424.712 kgf We can lift a bucket piston (hollow piston with 70 meter tall walls) as long as it does not weigh more than 258425 kg. Once the piston face reaches ground level it hits the stops and is mechanically locked in position. We now have an air chamber below the piston face that is 2 meters in diameter and 70 meters long so we need to calculate the volume of the cylinder: http://www.online-calculators.co.uk/volumetric/cylindervolume.php 220 cubic meters We are now no longer using the 117 psi input because the air chamber below the piston is full so we repurpose it to pump water from ground level up to the top of the piston bucket and fill up the hollow piston. https://www.theunitconverter.com/cubic-meter-to-liter-conversion/ Once this is full we have a 220 cubic meter air chamber at an air pressure of 117 psi with a piston above it holding 220 cubic meters of water which is 220000 liters which weighs 220000kg. We now release the mechanical stops on the piston and the air chamber which is at 117 psi is compressed by the weight of the water in the hollow piston. (The piston weight itself is cancelled out by the 117 psi force on the piston in opposition to it) The piston can then descend increasing the air pressure in the chamber and because the piston follows the volume of the air chamber is reduced maintaining pressure. This air is piped to a turbine and converted to electricity. When the piston reaches the bottom of its travel a valve in the piston face is opened and water is allowed to flow into what once was the air chamber. Air pressure is now fed back in under the piston and displaces the water at the piston face. This creates a negative bouyancy force on the piston and it is raised back up to ground level riding on the water that flows from inside the hollow piston to below it. The stops are now once again engaged and the hollow piston above ground is pumped full of water using the 117 psi to do it, and displacing the air inside the hollow piston. The stops can now be released and you have 220000 liters of water + the weight of the piston pressing down on a hydraulic chamber of 220000 liters of water at atmospheric pressure (+ 15 psi per 10 meters of water increase as you go down the water column) This hydraulic system is then piped out and used to run a water wheel at high efficiency. The process now repeats and you run a hydraulic system in repeating cycles from now on. You could of course not bothered with the air chamber at all from the start and ran a purely hydraulic system but I thought it would help your understanding to include it. « Last Edit: 2018-02-10, 13:36:57 by evolvingape » --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #67 on: 2018-02-10, 13:06:16 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	List of waterfalls by height https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_waterfalls_by_height National parks are probably not going to let you play with their beautiful waterfalls.. You could alternatively look at waterfalls with high mass flow rates, or rivers with high mass flow rates and build your Trompe in a disused quarry that has already been dug out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_waterfalls_by_flow_rate You could divert rivers with high mass flow rates to your quarry and consider that you are going to lose 20% in height from your inlet to outlet at the plant, and return the water back to the river at a point that matches this height loss. --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #68 on: 2018-02-11, 12:18:21 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Pressure is Force per Unit Area https://www.school-for-champions.com/science/pressure.htm by Ron Kurtus (revised 18 March 2006) Pressure is the force on an object that is spread over a surface area. The equation for pressure is the force divided by the area where the force is applied. Although this measurement is straightforward when a solid is pushing on a solid, the case of a solid pushing on a liquid or gas requires that the fluid be confined in a container. The force can also be created by the weight of an object. Questions you may have include: What is the pressure when a solid pushes on another solid? What happens when a solid pushes on a confined fluid? What happens when the force comes from gravity? This lesson will answer those questions. Useful tool: Units Conversion Pressure of solid on a solid When you apply a force to a solid object, the pressure is defined as the force applied divided by the area of application. The equation for pressure is: P = F/A where P is the pressure F is the applied force A is the surface area where the force is applied F/A is F divided by A For example, if you push on an object with your hand with a force of 20 pounds, and the area of your hand is 10 square inches, then the pressure you are exerting is 20 / 10 = 2 pounds per square inch. Pressure equals Force divided by Area You can see that for a given force, if the surface area is smaller, the pressure will be greater. If you use a larger area, you are spreading out the force, and the pressure (or force per unit area) becomes smaller. Solid pressing on confined fluid When a liquid or gas is confined in a container or cylinder, you can create a pressure by applying a force with a solid piston. The pressure created in the cylinder equals the force applied divided by the area of the piston: P = F/A. In a confined fluid—neglecting the effect of gravity on the fluid—the pressure is the same throughout the container, pressing equally on all the walls. In the case of a bicycle pump, the pressure created inside the pump will be transmitted through the hose into the bicycle tire. But the air is still all confined. Pressure is in all directions in a fluid Increasing the force will increase the pressure inside the cylinder. Caused by gravity Since the weight of an object is a force caused by gravity, we can substitute weight in the pressure equation. Thus the pressure (P) caused by the weight (W) of an object is that weight divided by the area (A) where the weight is applied. P = W/A If you place a solid object on the floor, the pressure on the floor over the area of contact is the weight of the object divided by the area on the floor. Pressure equals Weight divided by Area Example with shoes A good example of how a force on small area can result in a very high pressure is seen in women's shoes with high spiked heels. These types of shoes can cause damage to some floors due to the very high pressure on the floor at the heel. An average shoe distributes the weight of the person over 20 square inches. Thus, a 100-pound person applies 100/20 = 5 pounds per square inch on the floor. Since a spike-heel is only 0.25 square inches, the 100-pound person would be applying 100/0.25 = 400 pounds per square inch on the floor at the heel! In some cases, that is sufficient to damage the floor. Fluid weight If you put a liquid in a container, the weight of that liquid would be pressing on the bottom of the container similar to that of the weight of a solid object. The pressure on the bottom of the container would be the same as if the weight was from a solid: P = W/A. The only difference is that pressure in a fluid goes in all directions. So the pressure on the sides at the bottom would be the same. Gases and liquids exhibit pressure due to their weight at every point in the fluid. Summary Pressure is the force on an object that is spread over a surface area. The equation for pressure is P = F/A. Pressure can be measured for a solid is pushing on a solid, but the case of a solid pushing on a liquid or gas requires that the fluid be confined in a container. The force can also be created by the weight of an object. ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Pressure is in all directions in a fluid.gif (3.05 kB, 154x255 - viewed 366 times.) Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Pressure equals Weight divided by Area.gif (4.46 kB, 228x275 - viewed 349 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #69 on: 2018-02-11, 12:36:41 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	We have discussed how the air pressure generated by environmental energy in a Trompe can create 117 psi = 2 meters / 260000 Kg If the piston is assumed to be 220 metric tons it can be lifted by the air pressure and then held in place using mechanical stops. The air pressure can now be repurposed to pump water up 70 meters and fill the hollow piston with 220 tons of water. This changes the P = F / A relationship and we now have 200 psi = 440000 kgf / 2 meters Instead of venting this air pressure through a turbine to generate electricity use it to pump the water into the next cylinder.. https://www.sensorsone.com/piston-cylinder-force-and-diameter-to-pressure-calculator/ If the hollow piston is extended vertically but the weight of the piston remains the same then you can lift it the same distance in the same way using the 117 psi starting pressure, you can now fill it even more with for example 440 tons of water (total 660000 kgf).. which will give you a pressure of 300 psi.. and a very large volume of compressed air.. A hydroelectric generator is preferable to a pneumatic generator because the specific gravity of liquid is so much larger, it is more dense and has much more mass, at the same pressure. I would use the air pressure to step up the system pressure by pumping water to add weight, and the hydraulic pressure output to run a large water wheel and generate electricity.. --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #70 on: 2018-02-12, 22:37:06 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	We know that approximately 10 meters of water in a column has a pressure differential of about 15 psi, so for every 15 psi of pressure applied we can raise water about 10 meters. Using the air pressure from the Trompe example, which is about 117 psi at the surface we can raise water about 78 meters.. but why is the air pressure at the surface ground level the same as the air pressure in the compressed air chamber 78 meters below us, when the water pressure is not the same ? The answer is that the air pressure has reduced due to losses but the losses are so small that we don't really notice it. The air is a fluid just like water and is subject to the same laws: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pflu.html Static Fluid Pressure "The pressure exerted by a static fluid depends only upon the depth of the fluid, the density of the fluid, and the acceleration of gravity." The acceleration due to gravity is the same for both fluids, the depth of the fluid columns are the same, the density of the fluids are vastly different. https://www.britannica.com/science/atmospheric-pressure "Near Earth’s surface the pressure decreases with height at a rate of about 3.5 millibars for every 30 metres (100 feet)." We need to keep our units and ratios the same so 10 meters = 3.5 millibars / 3 = 1.166 millibars per 10 meters Convert millibars to psi: https://www.convertunits.com/from/millibar/to/psi 1.166 millibars = 0.0168 psi 0.0168 psi x 7.8 = 0.131 psi per 78 meter We can see from this that we do not lose much air pressure from the weight of the column bringing the air up to the surface to pump water.. As discussed 1 cubic meter of water weighs 1000kg and 1 cubic meter of air weighs 1.225kg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_of_air A nice discussion on the subject: https://www.quora.com/Is-it-surprising-that-a-cubic-meter-of-water-weighs-1-ton hhop gen 4 incorporates the type of piston design that is suitable for a Trompe hydro-pneumatic system, the air pressure force slightly greater than the solid weight force of the piston in order to lift it, and the air is then compressed further by loading water weight into the piston. http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2288.msg54674#msg54674 ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe hhop gen 4 updated.png (114.29 kB, 2339x1653 - viewed 340 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #71 on: 2018-02-12, 22:55:12 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	http://www.mit.edu/people/spirn/Public/Ulises-11-308/Quarrying.pdf Case Study: Brownstone Park "The limestone quarry was originally abandoned in the 1930’s after flooding from the Connecticut River ended all operations. The quarry site was neglected and filled with water, forming what is known as a quarry lake." Portland Brownstone Quarries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Brownstone_Quarries Just one of many examples of a quarry that could have been a power plant using controlled flooding and draining from a nearby river.. Bingham Canyon http://www.mining-technology.com/features/feature-top-ten-deepest-open-pit-mines-world/ "Bingham Canyon mine located south-west of Salt Lake City, Utah, US, is the deepest open pit mine in the world. The Bingham Canyon pit is more than 1.2km deep and approximately four kilometres wide." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine http://www.calctool.org/CALC/other/games/depth_press 1200 meters deep = 1764 psi of air pressure ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Bingham_mine_5-10-03.jpg (388.32 kB, 1600x1200 - viewed 355 times.) « Last Edit: 2018-02-12, 23:25:49 by evolvingape » --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #72 on: 2018-02-13, 00:51:33 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	The market has spoken – clean energy just became the cheapest source of electricity http://www.orrazz.com/2018/02/the-market-has-spoken-clean-energy-just.html I just came across this article so I'll leave it here for you to muse on Trompe potential.. ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Xcel-Energy-Bids.png (112.66 kB, 1169x668 - viewed 377 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #73 on: 2018-02-15, 23:12:23 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Hydraulic machinery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_machinery Hydraulic machines are machinery and tools that use liquid fluid power to do simple work. Heavy equipment is a common example. In this type of machine, hydraulic fluid is transmitted throughout the machine to various hydraulic motors and hydraulic cylinders and becomes pressurised according to the resistance present. The fluid is controlled directly or automatically by control valves and distributed through hoses and tubes. The popularity of hydraulic machinery is due to the very large amount of power that can be transferred through small tubes and flexible hoses, and the high power density and wide array of actuators that can make use of this power. Hydraulic machinery is operated by the use of hydraulics, where a liquid is the powering medium. Force and torque multiplication A fundamental feature of hydraulic systems is the ability to apply force or torque multiplication in an easy way, independent of the distance between the input and output, without the need for mechanical gears or levers, either by altering the effective areas in two connected cylinders or the effective displacement (cc/rev) between a pump and motor. In normal cases, hydraulic ratios are combined with a mechanical force or torque ratio for optimum machine designs such as boom movements and trackdrives for an excavator. Examples Two hydraulic cylinders interconnected Cylinder C1 is one inch in radius, and cylinder C2 is ten inches in radius. If the force exerted on C1 is 10 lbf, the force exerted by C2 is 1000 lbf because C2 is a hundred times larger in area (S = πr²) as C1. The downside to this is that you have to move C1 a hundred inches to move C2 one inch. The most common use for this is the classical hydraulic jack where a pumping cylinder with a small diameter is connected to the lifting cylinder with a large diameter. ------------------------ Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe Force increase with hydraulics.png (163.58 kB, 1152x2276 - viewed 467 times.) --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

evolvingape	Re: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe « Reply #74 on: 2018-02-15, 23:32:03 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	When we examine the Ragged Chute Plant drawing post #57 we notice two interesting things: The output tube from the air compression chamber is 24 inches in diameter.. The output goes to the valve houses.. This means that there is a very significant CFM (cubic feet per minute) at a significant gas pressure > 100 psi. The valve houses distribute that energy where it is needed to do work by opening and closing valves. A hydraulic jack arrangement on a large scale could very easily multiply force over a time period.. so we need a pump, a big pump! Water is a great liquid but for the working fluid we would want hydraulic oil, able to withstand great pressure without property change. The Trompe could easily fill an oil tank for gravity feed into our pumping cylinder. The air as discussed could easily lift the weight of the solid piston if sized correctly. The water becomes the key point.. it can be easily pumped and is reasonably dense, we are interested in mass transfer around the system. So.. the force of the piston assembly is slightly less than the force of the air pressure from the Trompe when filled with air, it can be raised and locked in position storing gravitational potential energy. The piston is locked out with mechanical stops and the air pressure that raised it that is greater than ambient is vented to atmosphere through a breather valve, allowing the hydraulic oil to fill from the gravity tank and displacing all the air in the chamber to atmosphere. Now the mechanical stops can be released and the weight of the piston will be held by hydraulic lock of the oil, the force acting on the output valve of the pump. You can now pump water into the tank and apply a weight force to the hydraulic oil energising it. When the tank is full and at maximum weight the valve can be opened and the hydraulic pressure can do work on the raised weight accumulator as the piston descends under gravitational influence. The accumulator can have a solid weight, I prefer Lead at a specific gravity of 11.35 (water has a specific gravity reference = 1).. Mercury, Gold, Depleted Uranium and Osmium would be better but can be ruled out on safety or cost grounds! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_gravity Once the piston has travelled its full bore stroke the water in the tank is pumped into the next raised, but filled with air tank, and the process repeats.. this water can be recycled in a closed loop around the system at atmospheric pressure, as can the hydraulic oil.. Using Lead for the accumulator weight will massively shorten your accumulator piston and allow more working hydraulic oil run time in the same height increasing efficiency.. It's quite simple really, all known technology.. just forgotten --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

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