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Author Topic: Amazing ancient free energy source, Bill Mollison explains a Trompe  (Read 24084 times)

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Limitless clean energy that can make petrolium fuels obsolete

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=959&v=-9NqqDL6bkk
   

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Applied Sciences Trompe
US Department of the Interior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I85esMMoRa4



Trompe Hammer Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1lQA-tnwo

"Trompe Hammer" Part 2, Testing. Water powered air compressor and water pump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLoQIAWmQbM

The Future of "HYDROELECTRIC"!?, 60 psi. from 8 foot of head!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wX4WtOHFZE
   

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Well it's free energy if you don't have to pay for the water.   OK if you have a waterfall, or alternatively a stream or river you can tap into.  See picture taken from Mother Earth web site.
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Well it's free energy if you don't have to pay for the water.   OK if you have a waterfall, or alternatively a stream or river you can tap into.  See picture taken from Mother Earth web site.
Smudge
Yes indeed I do see the problem, but the process is interesting, i am wondering if this can be adapted to wind power.
If a wind turbine was to keep water circulating in a loop, the momentum of the flowing water would only require the added energy to maintain flow within the pipes due to losses and drag of the pipe wall surface, if one were then to use this water flow and inject air from the wind turbine and use a Trompe design to capture the air bubbles then we have a fairly efficient way to capturing and storing energy, i would imagine that it does take more energy to pump oxygenated water to a lower level than oxygen void water.

The problem with a conventional wind turbine is that it can only ever be 64% maximum efficiency due to the exit speed of the air across the blade, this needs velocity to maintain motion of the turbine, if instead a flat surface were used and the wind pressure were to act on this flat surface and the force acting on this flat surface was used to push water in a periodic push/ pull cycle then it should be possible to achieve an efficiency greater that 64%.

   

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Well it's free energy if you don't have to pay for the water.   OK if you have a waterfall, or alternatively a stream or river you can tap into.  See picture taken from Mother Earth web site.
Smudge

Yes, it is similar to the rampump

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram

This all goes back to the pyramids I think, where the Nile was used as the source of energy. There is somewhere a drawing of how this was done then, it was big.

Also Victorian fountains worked this way, and also Versaille I believe.

Regards

Mike 8)


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I thought I started a thread on this somewhere :-\

You can't YET beat the LoT "ATM", but you can get very close converting low energy into high energy "over time".

Yes I am sure a very good energy storage system could be made out of this, in the past I thought of spinning up a heavy flywheel with an air turbine 8)

Regards

Mike 8)


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I would imagine that it does take more energy to pump oxygenated water to a lower level than oxygen void water.

In which case if air is entrained into the falling water in a conventional hydro-electric system it could increase the hydro-electric efficiency and give you compressed air to drive an additional air-turbine.
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In which case if air is entrained into the falling water in a conventional hydro-electric system it could increase the hydro-electric efficiency and give you compressed air to drive an additional air-turbine.
Smudge

I see where you are going Smudge, but you would have to remove the maximum amount of air before the water turbine or you would have cavitation problems on the turbine blades, but certainly doable I think O0

Maybe generate power for producing hydrogen in another plant nearby ;) Free hydrogen anyone O0

Regards

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love this contraption I'm going to look for a few refinements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1lQA-tnwo and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wX4WtOHFZ
My thinking is this could be used with a single bore hole made in the middle of a fast flowing stream there's certainly plenty of those where I live in the English Lake district.
surly to contrive to fit this into one hole made by a bore hole machine in the centre of a stream is the way forward? It will take a little more thought but  here's a foundation of sorts.

That compressed air tank would have to be much smaller and moved to the left so the compressed air pipe could exit the same hole and then be assisted by a much larger tank on the surface. A local bore hole company inform that their average  bore hole depth is between 50M and 60M and the dia can be betwixt one and two meters . I start to ponder if a viable high power system can be constructed and then lowered down a bore hole , It would be all but invisable   -- that would be a game changer. for your interest the picture was taken from this website
https://losttechnology.org/science-of-the-trompe/ also for inspection this high power Trompe machine http://www.cobaltmininglegacy.ca/power.php  and the engineer http://charleshtaylor.blogspot.co.uk/
Kind regards Duncan

« Last Edit: 2018-01-29, 13:53:18 by Duncan »


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Hi Duncan
Interesting links thanks ;)

I'm now thinking of a closed loop system, where oil is pumped using a high voltage asymmetric capacitor (TT Brown) air or helium is introduced at the top and is collected at the bottom in a chamber, heavier liquids and lighter gasses would require less head height to attain a high pressure, the high pressure gas could be used to drive a Tesla turbine for max efficiency of the system.

There could be a wind powered van de graph generator to power the asymmetric capacitor.
   
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oh wow peter your leap frogging ahead of me  :-[ It'll take a while to absorbe some of that.The head of water is perhaps not quite as insurmountable or important as it seems. We all seem to think in terms of water wheels and turbines where the head x volume of water is critical here the water is only a carrier of the real energy supply  it seems to me at the moment is air, and pressure difference.
The water volume may be quite small as its simply returned to almost where it started - (minus its precious cargo of air of course). rate of flow or turbulence if you like is a different thing.
It strikes me that the power of this system is a product of velocity of the water,its air content and head.
not knowing anything of water bubbles I went in search of information and came up with more than I bargained for. still if anyone wants some light reading fill your boots, - In fact you can have all my share of this first link. its given me a head ache!
http://espace.library.uq.edu.au/eserv/UQ:9433/coe02_1.pdf
here's a construction project outlined
http://outlands.tripod.com/farm/rampump.htm
 ah an explanation that doesn't hurt my head quite as much.
http://www.appropedia.org/Pulser_pump#Principle_of_Operation
A little more of recent history
http://charleshtaylor.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/hydraulic-air-compressor-brief-history.html

I'm glad to report that Chaz Taylor elected to write a short pamphlet on the system he made his own. at the end of the pamphlet is a handy set of  tables (of the time of course) for calculating the  horse power required against all the parameters , cubic foot of water flow -- head of water ect apparently good for any system .( I wouldn't know about that) but in the absence of anything else very much it becomes very valuable rules and laws to work to - I like
https://archive.org/stream/IllustratedDescriptionOfTheTaylorHydraulicAirCompressorAndTransmission/49590#page/n0/mode/2up

Might I suggest (to save time) you download using the PDF option save it of course and then head to page 19. Its my guess that if the engineering worked 120 years ago. it probably still does and the figures and tables are just as relevant now as they were then kindest regards Duncan
 
« Last Edit: 2018-01-30, 12:40:51 by Duncan »


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so to try what I have in mind , using a single bore hole a fast flowing stream and a few imaginary figures and plug them in to see if this might (just might) be viable . Its a long time since I used gallons and foot Lbs so if I stuff it up -- sorry
Let me assume before I ever start this that I consider 4000 pounds sterling (that is the cost of a sixty meter bore hole here abouts) a good investment for a constant  3Kw electrical supply, and then plug the figures into Mr Taylors table and see what pops out the other end .



ye olden days is Horse power steady up there neddy, 3000/746 = I think we can agree on 4 HP (its close enough)
by rule of thumb it seems the inefficiency is taken as 33.33 % in all cases so ho hum I now require
 4 +1.33 = 5.33 HP (HP of water required) multiplied by the foot-pounds /sec in one HP= 5.33 HP x 550=2931.5  (The foot pounds of work per second required).
divided by the head of water in feet (my 60 meter bore hole) = 196 feet so 2931/196= 15Lbs of water per second required under the given head divide by the weight of one cubic foot of water
15/62.4 =  0.24 cubic feet of water required each second. plugging that into a gallons/sec converter shows 1.5 gallons of flow each second . If thats right and I reserve judgment cause I'm none to sure it is - it doesn't seem at all difficult to achieve .
kind regards Duncan
 





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So now lets assume I have a stream that I can make unobtrusive use of . and further more (and this is a leap of faith) that I have 4000 bangers to toss about . how do I determine the flow of my stream ?
The 90 deg notched weir seems as good as anything . we've mucked about with horse power and foot pounds mixed up with fractions and decimals along with SI units and things from long long ago why not another into the pot pourri ?
so your going to dam your stream with some marine plywood, sheet roofing (whatever) with a triangle cut in the middle,  how far the water rises up the dam is proportional to the flow.
here's a web site all about it 
http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/Water-Measurements/90-Degree-Triangular-Notch-Weirs.php
Isn't life grand ? you don't even have to get a pencil out any more , just plug the numbers in, you'll get the flow. and the flow I require I remind you is at least 0.24 cubic feet /sec so I need to be around about 5 inches up that notch and then I could well be on my way to a  3kw Trompe driven generator  give or take error -- couldn't I ? :-\" five inches doesn't seem very much - the actress said to the Bishop"   :)
« Last Edit: 2018-01-30, 13:54:51 by Duncan »


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Hello Duncan, its been a while.   :)

Despite my age and a former keen interest in industrial archeology I’ve never heard of the “ Trompe “ before.

The “ Vee notch “ is something I know about as we had many built into the inputs to the various storage reservoirs that my first employer, the local Water company owned.

The sad part is that these days putting any form of restriction into a watercourse is strictly forbidden but on the other hand you can remove 20 metric tonnes per day without license!

Your “ scheme “ sounds great on paper but I feel there would be many impediments in practice. No river runs clean you’d have to have some method of removing organics/silt from the bottom of your 60 metre borehole.

The device however could be made to fit into the lined tube easily and perhaps be made so that it can be winched out periodically for maintenance?

I loved the video that Peter linked to on the top of this thread, what a great sense of humour and, as he said almost anything can run from compressed air!

Cheers Graham.



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thanks for the info Duncan.

This could also be applied to tidal flooding.
   

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It is nice to see enthusiastic discussion on these old technologies!  O0

Compressed air energy storage

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage

"Advanced fiber-reinforced bottles are comparable to the rechargeable lead-acid battery in terms of energy density."

Did I mention the hhop gen 2 hybrid is a fluid compression pump ? I normally focus on the liquid aspect, with the energy storage coming from either increasing a liquids gravitational potential energy, or storing it in an accumulator system. (Raised weight accumulator is good for this due to constant pressure output for entire length of stroke)

There is no reason you cannot compress air into a storage bottle using Pascal's principle and a hydraulic jack system in reverse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_press

Solar powered air compression ;)


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the high pressure gas could be used to drive a Tesla turbine for max efficiency of the system.

I was playing about with Tesla turbines ten years ago or so and one thing I considered was adding golf ball dimples to the disc surfaces.. I planned on doing this by using a spring loaded hammer punch to displace the stainless metal and create a dimple. I never got around to it, got distracted by hhop which sucked up the next decade! (my god has it been so long!!) Anyway, the idea never left my subconscious and with the recent advent of 3D printing it could be quite simple to design, print and test various disc designs.

Base drag does not apply in a Tesla turbine as two surface boundary layers of gas are partially overlapping in a spiral to the center exhaust, typically about 0.030" (30 thou) disc spacing gap. Identically printed discs could be set in phase or out of phase and efficiency easily measured by no load (and loaded) RPM at a set air pressure input. Skin friction improvements may well be significant..

To overcome the problem of decreasing efficiency with a lower pressure of gas it would be helpful to have 3 air storage bottles in parallel manifold. This would mean for example that if you were running the turbine at 200 psi and your storage bottles were at 4500 psi each you would achieve a longer run time at 200 psi than just one bottle alone. This is a known technique..

Might be fun to experiment with as I do not know of anyone who has published results in this area of research ?

Why don't plane designers put golf ball dimples on aircrafts to increase the efficiency?

https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-plane-designers-put-golf-ball-dimples-on-aircrafts-to-increase-the-efficiency?share=1

The answer is because there are different types of drag. The two types relavent here are base drag and skin friction drag. Base drag is the drag created when airflow separates from a body creating a low pressure area behind the body. Skin friction drag is the drag generated by airflow rubbing against the body. Golf balls take advantage of scallops or dimples to create small vortices that energize the flow, which keep it attached to the body longer. This energized flow creates more skin friction drag, but reduces base drag. In the case of a round body, like a golf ball, the base drag is so much bigger than the skin friction drag, that even though the dimples increased the friction drag, they reduced the base drag so much that the net effect is a reduction in total drag.

Airplanes used much more streamlined shapes, so they already have really low base drag. If airplanes use dimples to energize flow, they will increase skin friction drag, but won't gain much in terms of their already low base drag. So the net effect will be an increase in total drag.

Look into Fluid Dynamic Drag by Hoerner (
https://oscommerce.darcorp.com/p...). It's THE book as far as drag is concerned. The comparison of bodies of equivalent drag (streamlined versus round) is phenomenal.

How do dimples in golf balls affect their flight?


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-dimples-in-golf-ba/

Tom Veilleux, a senior scientist, and Vince Simonds, director of aerodynamic research at the Top-Flite Golf Company, explain.

Engineers and scientists in the golf industry study the impact between a golf club and a golf ball to determine the ball's so-called launch conditions. The impact typically lasts only 1/2000 of a second, but it establishes the ball's velocity, launch angle and spin rate. After this brief impact the ball's trajectory is controlled entirely by gravity and aerodynamics--no matter how much the golfer hopes or curses. As a result, aerodynamic optimization--achieved through dimple pattern design--is a critical part of overall golf ball development.

A smooth golf ball hit by a professional golfer would travel only about half as far as a golf ball with dimples does. Most golf balls have between 300 and 500 dimples, which have an average depth of about 0.010 inch. The lift and drag forces on a golf ball are very sensitive to dimple depth: a depth change of 0.001 inch can produce a radical change to the ball's trajectory and the overall distance it can fly. Dimples have traditionally been spherical in shape, but it is possible to optimize the aerodynamic performance of other shapes. The HX golf ball by Callaway, for example, uses hexagons. (see image)

Air exerts a force on any object moving through it.. (the opposite is also true)


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Blessings Grumage Its nice to hear from you. Lol I wasn't intending leaving the notched thing in place just a temporary thing to get an idea of flow I thought.
As for obstructing her majesty's waterways the farmers hereabouts seem to take a liberal view to such petty rules and regulations particularly in flood time.
In fact they'll divert the stuff anywhere they can with anything they can .. but of course I take your point there could well be problems with "The authorities' -twas ever so.
according to Charles Taylor this thing isn't prone to silting if I remember rightly thats because the water is sucked in from very near the surface.
I kinda view it in my imagination like a pint of lager and trying to push as much froth (air) down the pipe as possible whilst using little water from near the surface.
anyway despite Charles's sales pitch your quite right Grumage its going to need some provision to inspect, clean and service. cause sure as eggs is eggs its going to get some crap down there at some stage.
although absolutely nothing to do with trompe's Grumage  I came across a clip some time ago and immediately thought of you wrestling with that Wesley thing a while back, so I take the liberty of inserting here for your interest with apologies to everyone else for drifting wildly off course briefly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKGoXD8P5A
There's a lot of if's and possibilities starting to peculate from this very old Trompe technology and that's a good thing. another that comes to mind (if the bore hole approach is taken)  is the possibility of being able to repeat the operation again and again just a little further down stream. after all you have lost none,or at least very little of the head of water from the bulk of the stream.  Its an odd concept but in theory why not?

evolvingape - as usual a worthy contribution with much to consider I'll start trying to digest some of it. I have recently read you elsewhere contributing to things political,
I'm afraid thats the real block to this or any other potential free energy devices. There's no shortage of devices and as soon as Bill Mollison stated in the video Peter linked to -" The technology was suppressed , and agents removed all the books from all the library's in the early 1930s " Then any researcher worth a tin o'beans knows its going to be a COP+1 device of some sort. Its that single sentence that set me digging and delving.
We are  living in fragile times possibly of imminent empire change when most don't know there's an empire anyway, never mind an empire enforced with oil and energy. Yes its refreshing and very interesting to consider yet another device that can alter the world out of all recognition, and to its advantage a device which cannot be patented . a device with scraps of information and design detail still available if we search hard enough and take care of it.
Grumage is probably quite right some petty bi law or another will probably prevent any chance of this being tried seriously in the UK (although never say die of course)still many others read our forum around the world and who knows one or two of them might have a stream at the bottom of the garden .. and great oaks from little acorns grow. I watched this video the other day evolvingape
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh2_3WFEqYA
It doesn't inspire but does tell a small part of the story. Many of the members here have developed COP+1 devices. some I have even managed to duplicate at least to the point where I can see they worked.
A lot of members are simply blasé at a new/old  introductions -- bored even, - yawn -- seen that before. feed me another grape !
This is a water based system they have been shown to work many times by different researchers at different times here's a short list of a few of those researchers.
Chuck Henderson
Daniel Hoffman
Dennis Lee
Drunvalo Melchizedek
Eletrik
Frank Robert
George Wiseman
Hector Pierre Vaes
Henry M. Paine
Herman P. Anderson
Ilya Velbov
Isaac de Rivas
James A. Robey
Jean Joseph Etienne Lenoir
Jean-Louis Naudin
Jerry W. Decker
Jim Cornell
“Joe” (Joe cell)
John Ernst Worrell Keely
Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac
Juan Carlos Aguero
Ken Rasmussen
Kim, Sang Nam
LateNite Leroy
Leroy Pea
Lou (Louis) LaPointe
Luther Wattles
Michael A. Peavey
Nakamatsu Yoshiro
Nikola Tesla
Ozzie Freedom
Paracelsus
Patrick J. Kelly
Paul Pantone
Paul Zigouras
Dr. Robert Zweig
Rodger Billings
Ron Barker
Rudolf A. Erren
Rudolph W. Gunnerman
Sam Leslie Leach
Stanley Meyer
Steven Horvarth
Walter E. Wyles
William A. Rhodes
William Nicholson

Its perhaps wishful thinking evolvingape but maybe one of us might just see a way to make this contraption simple, compact and powerful in such a way that it gets out of the box and can't be stopped. Of course I'm enthusiastic - after all  Its a distinct possibility and its certainly starting some wheels turning for me.

Peterae -  I'm genuinely enjoying researching this and happy to post anything I find to promote it. and of course tidal too , however the buisness of moving air entrapped in water is what is engaging me at the moment .
Kindest regards everyone Duncan
« Last Edit: 2018-01-31, 21:03:58 by Duncan »


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As I understand things....

The maximum air pressure that can be achieved under “ normal “ atmospheric conditions is based upon the height the water is above the collector, yes?

There has to be a differential between input and output otherwise no water will flow.

I built many “ hydraulic ram pumps “ to move water from our little brook that ambles its way through the garden, disproved the myth that they don’t run submerged. Eventually had to stop when my neighbors discovered the source of the noise that kept them awake every night for months!! >:-)

I think that using the pulsating nature of the hydraulic ram might improve the pressure gain at the collector.

Cheers Graham.


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 Hi Grumage yes I'll try and expand on that (or a least what I'm imagining) The difference in height and hence pressure is here caused by the depth of a bore hole . a bore hole that is comparatively small when compared to the volume of water traveling down the stream . very much like the example I've worked up above in fact.- a sixty meter artificial drop.
What you say is quite correct in usual situations but this is far from usual it is Dependant on water to carry air and not reliant on the weight of that water to 'do work' , consider the 'compact trompe' I show It must return water up the same bore hole to the same height  it started -- what other option is there after all ?
The figures I have used come from the actual engineering pamphlet written by Charles Taylor and I have intentionally stressed the bore hole aspect to amplify and show this glaring and interesting anomaly.
I've amplified it again by saying (in theory bore hole after bore hole could be installed) of course I'm asking the question (wouldn't you ?) and right now I don't see why not. This is not hydraulic's nothing much to do with hydraulics its very much pneumatics water is only the carrier. as Peter has pointed out that might be improved on too using a different fluid.
It isn't a mass times distance operation in fact rather perversely the reverse (if water becomes lighter  w.r.t  how much air its carrying.)
It seems to me how much air can you get down that hole is the only important criteria. Perhaps this remarkable engineer is wrong or maybe I'm working through his examples incorrectly by all means put your own figures into his tables I'm happy to be contradicted or corrected but don't confuse this with a mechanical action for the moment . This thing shouldn't make a noise and I'm pretty sure would leave your neighbors snoring peacefully   


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Hi Duncan.

I picture a “ U “ tube... Without a difference in height between input and output nothing will flow, equilibrium.

Cheers Graham.


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I picture a U tube with a uni directional compressed air pump in the middle of it. ,like you Grumage the Trompe is a concept I've never heard of before and water as transport for air is also novel to me .  I beleive you may be very wrong thinking in terms of a U tube filled with water. why do I think your wrong ? because thats not what it is, is it?
Its just what your imagining . study the compact Trompe -- you see the feed pipe coming down carrying lots of air ? at the bottom it doesn't see a head of water pressure as a U tube would only the air pressure of the tank. It releases the air into the tank and at that depth its going to be an awful lot of pressure. The huge fall is there but air pressure forces most of the water back to source.
again Grumage I urge you to stop thinking in terms of hydraulics you are looking at a novel concept and clutching at straws to try and make it fit into known dogma . who knows perhaps your right and I'm wrong, I'm certainly seeing something different to you here. imho this has not been supressed without good reason. I might also respectfully suggest you work through a few'pretend' examples using the engineers own tables which I show - you'll soon get the gist or who knows, find where I havent - kind regards Duncan


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I agree with your explanation Duncan of how it works.

I think the point here is that it is probably not very efficient but if you have a running water source and by expending a once off amount of energy to dig out the required underground structure then you have a compressed air supply forever without any additional running costs, unlike you would have if the air supply was from a compressor being driven by a diesel engine, supressed info, well I can tell you which device the petroleum companies would prefer you to use.
   
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Hi Peterae I have spent quite a lot of time reading though this aged stuff and I find this hard to believe myself but Charles Taylor claims an amazing  better than 80% efficiency for this thing.- (I don't know where thats measured from).
regardless if you have a big drop and a little bit of water it seems to me like it will do one hell of a job . and importantly not once but perhaps over and over again,
 all said and done if the engineers figures are to be trusted and a HP  in 1890 is exactly the same as a HP in 2018.and so is a foot and a cubic foot - if thats all true here is COP >1 on a huge scale for the cost of a hole. well thats my guess and hope anyway.
I guess we'll have to think of some way to test this thing


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3017
This struck me as cogent and worth emphasizing - thanks, Duncan:

"We are  living in fragile times possibly of imminent empire change when most don't know there's an empire anyway, never mind an empire enforced with oil and energy..."  by BigOil, BigBanks, and BigPharma!

  And I'm enjoying the discussion about Trompe.

 
   
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