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Author Topic: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons  (Read 8104 times)

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The Fermi velocity is not unidirectional and cannot be likened to current flow.  Conduction electrons travel at Fermi velocity between atoms but they then lose that velocity when they crash into the next atom (crash is the wrong term to use but it will do here).  So electrons zig-zag about in all directions at this high velocity and that is thermal noise that results in zero average drift.  Under the influence of an externally applied electric field you then get that well known drift velocity that we know as current flow.  Good picture here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/ohmmic.html
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SM was trying to understand how his device worked, and explain it in terms that would not get him in trouble, based on his own knowledge of electrons which primarily came from his work with vacuum tubes.

His quote:

Quote
80. Now electrons can travel only so fast along the surface of a wire because of the magnetic flux.
What if you disable the effect of the flux? My unit operates on these principles. Now the electrons float freely without anything holding them back. Electrons at the speed of light are now a possibility.

He says "when you disable the effects of the flux", implying that the velocity limiting effect of magnetic flux is eliminated, allowing for increased electron velocity and he probably thought this accounted for the energy gain seen in his devices.

This is his own interpretation based on his own knowledge, a hypothesis, not proven fact.

With that said, the goal at hand is to make electrons flow by using less "power" than the power that can be derived from their motion.

To achieve this end we have to make the electrons move, as a current, without using known methods of induction that we know do not result in gain beyond the power applied.

So, which forces do we have at our disposal that influence electrons?  Coulomb force, Magnetism, gravity, Lorentz force (electric field and magnetic field together)

Any other forces that we can use?
   
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I think it is important why and how it is related to the mentioned by SM effect on vacuum tube filament and Earth magnetic field.
   
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The Fermi velocity is not unidirectional and cannot be likened to current flow.  Conduction electrons travel at Fermi velocity between atoms but they then lose that velocity when they crash into the next atom (crash is the wrong term to use but it will do here).  So electrons zig-zag about in all directions at this high velocity and that is thermal noise that results in zero average drift.  Under the influence of an externally applied electric field you then get that well known drift velocity that we know as current flow.  Good picture here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/ohmmic.html
Smudge

I understand your explanation and what is stated in the supplied link.

Thanks



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I will continue the thread when I finally figure out how to run the experiment, and I will try to prove that the very act of a substantial current through a wire instantly suspends the free high "potential" velocity of electrons and what is left is the slow "drift velocity". Current therefore can only be allowed to flow if it is nulled out by an equal but opposite flow e.g. a zone at the center between the conductors of lampcord (as used by SM) or going through the center to the end of a co-axial cable and back along the outside.
 
 We see this (the coaxial cable) configuration in one of the Tariel Kapanadze devices. This may be the secret that has been under our noses but we have failed to recognize.......that the harder we pump current the more we pin the electrons in place because this action of the flux thus dooms so many of our experiments to failure. Nulling the flux with an equal but opposite flow frees the electrons to move at high speed once again. SM said it very clearly and we all seemed to have missed the point.

There are other factors, but I  believe the earth magnetic field plays only a minor role and can also easily be nulled out.

Just copied your post from TKs thread ION--hope thats ok.

After much thinking and experimenting,i believe that the magnetic field produced around a conductor when current starts to flow through it,is actually impeding the current flow-or flow of electrons. I mentioned this on OU.com some time back,and well-no need to say what the reaction was from most.

I stated that the magnetic field produced by the flow of current through a conductor,is an unwanted bi-product,

It would seem to me,after reading what you have posted,that we agree on this-->are we on the same page?

I also agree that the earths magnetic field plays a very small roll,in fact,i do not even think it is worth worrying about once we exceed 10mA of current flow through a conductor/conducting wire,as the magnetic field produced around the wire would cancel out any influence by the earths magnetic field.

I believe that the magnetic field produced around the wire is in opposition to that of the direction the electrons want/are made to flow. The end result is heat,due to magnetic friction.

We can see this easily when we hold a magnet close to a spinning conductive disk,such as copper or aluminum.
In both cases we have electrons moving through an external magnetic field,and that magnetic field impedes the motion of the electrons-->so would it be accurate to say that eddy currents are produced within the conductive wire,when a current is passed through it?

Anyway,i would like to tag along for the ride here ION,and see if we can integrate my high speed collision idea with what you come up with here.

To many times we deal with fle power measurements,and this time i would like to be dealing with 10's of watts at least.


Brad


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Ok,here is an experiment i did a couple of weeks ago(which i re-ran tonight for this thread),and thought it may be related to this topic-as far as i understand. This is just a very basic experiment,but none the less,it showed me the results i was hoping for.

First up,is it true to say that the higher the value of current flow,the faster the electrons are moving through the wire,when that wire remains the same size(same wire)?,as it is the moving electrons that create current flow-right?

Anyway,the pictures below show my test setup,and it is as follows.

I have a toroid transformer,which is being driven by my variac at it's lowest voltage setting,and is across the 240v winding of the toroid transformer.
I then have a soft iron wire loop looped around the toroid transformer,where the loop passes through the middle of the hole in the transformer. I used soft iron wire in the hope of making the wire itself one long conductive magnet. This is to counter the magnetic field that would be built up around the wire when current was flowing through it,as it is my belief that the magnetic field around a current carrying conductor impedes the electron flow.

Around that soft iron wire i have wound insulated copper wire,which i will call the field winding.
A DC current is then passed through the field winding in order to produce a magnetic field that is at 90* to that of the magnetic field produced by the current flowing through the soft iron wire loop.
The soft iron wire loop includes my .1 ohm CVR-as seen in the pictures below.

So,the single turn loop has an alternating current flowing through it,and the field coil has a direct current flowing through it.
The scope is placed across the .1 ohm CVR.

My theory was,once a direct current was flowing through the field winding,we should see an offset in the AC trace across the CVR,where we would see an increase current flow in one direction,and a decrease in current flow in the other direction.

The total power sent to the field winding in this experiment was 1 amp @ .3 volts (300mW). The current value was controlled by way of setting my power supply's current limit to 1 amp

The first scope shot shows the values without any current flowing through the field winding.

The second scope shot show the values with current now flowing through the field winding.

So,without current flowing through the field winding,we have a peak forward current value of 2.217 amps,and a peak reverse value of 2.16 amps--not sure why it has this offset,but it is only small.

With current flowing through our field winding,we have a peak forward current of 2.3 amps,and a peak reverse value of 1.81 amps.
So we see a difference of near half an amp in current flow in our soft iron loop.

This tells me that the magnetic field produced in the soft iron wire by the field winding,increases the speed of the electrons flow in one direction,and impedes the electrons flow speed in the other direction.

This also must mean that if the field winding was driven with an AC current (phase correct),we would see an increase in current flow in both directions through our soft iron wire loop--along with a decrease in power consumption from our toroid transformer.

Hope im on the right track here ION.


Brad

P.S--My scope is being powered from my inverter,so as to eliminate any ground loops.
My DC power supply also has an isolation transformer,so no ground loops there either.
So all three pieces of equipment(the variac,scope and DC power supply) are all isolated from one another.
We are also only running at 50Hz,so a very low frequency.


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Brad, you said;

Quote
It would seem to me, after reading what you have posted, that we agree on this-->are we on the same page?
Yes, it would seem we are.

Quote
I also agree that the earths magnetic field plays a very small roll,in fact,i do not even think it is worth worrying about once we exceed 10mA of current flow through a conductor/conducting wire,as the magnetic field produced around the wire would cancel out any influence by the earths magnetic field.

Yes, I agree this is true for a normal  single current flow in a wire, however when the flux is nulled out by an equal but opposite current flow the only force left is the earth flux field which will influence the tiny dipole electrons. Then we must consider either nulling the earth field or providing an overwhelming flux that creates a head to toe alignment of the dipoles inside the conductor as opposed to a circular. ordering as with normal current flow and resultant flux.

e.g. this could be done with a solenoid type overwinding around our nulled conductors and a weak DC current, just enough to overcome the earth field.

If no overwinding is supplied, pre-aligned iron wire would suffice.

Regards


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Brad

Just saw your very interesting wire experiment as I was busy with the prior post.

(Disclaimer of the following as I may have it wrong, please correct as needed)

If as conventional physics teaches that the movement of electrons in a conductor is very slow (drift velocity, um/sec), then our model must account for something moving much faster. Conventional physics then goes on to teach the billiard ball model, i.e. one electron at one end of the wire smacking into a long string of electrons and one being ejected. Other hypotheses (Ivor Catt etc) teach displacement current outside the wire as the fast purveyor, with the slow drift electrons tagging along at a much slower rate inside the wire because of collisions inside the wire (mean free path problem).

If we must regard drift velocity as true as it  has somehow been measured then it might be reasonable to consider that charge itself is the fast purveyor, thus I preferred the model that fast moving charge must arrange the electrons in a preferred ordering. Looking at the end of the wire can we assume that the ordering is in concentric circles, after all, the field outside the wire seems to take this ordering.

While this model may be wrong, it is a model that makes it easier for me to visualize moving charge as the mechanism of inductance as it adds spin to the (nearly) stationary electrons over time, which continues the flow of charge for some time when the applied current ceases, as the electrons have been spun up and must continue to pump charge until the spin energy is depleted back down to normal spin velocity.

It would seem that drift velocity alone is way too slow to account for the arcing of a current carrying circuit when the circuit is opened.

A good model should make it easy to visualize the mechanism of inductance, BEMF, skin effect etc.

So Brad you said:

Quote
This tells me that the magnetic field produced in the soft iron wire by the field winding,increases the speed of the electrons flow in one direction,and impedes the electrons flow speed in the other direction.

This also must mean that if the field winding was driven with an AC current (phase correct),we would see an increase in current flow in both directions through our soft iron wire loop--along with a decrease in power consumption from our toroid transformer.

I would agree, but would replace electron flow with charge flow.

Very nice experiment, something to be looked into more deeply. What happens if you use copper or aluminum wire in place of the soft iron wire?

Regards

http://resources.schoolscience.co.uk/cda/16plus/copelech2pg3.html
« Last Edit: 2018-03-20, 14:50:41 by ION »


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First up,is it true to say that the higher the value of current flow,the faster the electrons are moving through the wire,when that wire remains the same size(same wire)?,as it is the moving electrons that create current flow-right?

or more electrons flowing rather than flowing faster

   

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That is an interesting question.  I think it has always been taught that more current was a result of more electrons flowing.  But is that correct?  If a higher voltage equals a higher current flow as we all know it does, could that mean the electrons are just moving faster?  In other words does this situation equate to fluid flow where more pressure from the pump moves the fluid faster which means more fluid flows in the same amount of time.  Hmmm?  What kind of test could we come up with to try and prove which is correct?  Something to think about.  Is it even possible to prove one way or the other?


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Current is not the flow of electrons, although a flow of electrons does produce a current. Current is the flow of _charge_.  Think of the Newton's Cradle toy. The middle balls barely move at all, but the momentum flows through them so that the "output" ball jumps out just as far as the "input" ball swings in. (minus losses of course.)

   
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Current is not the flow of electrons, although a flow of electrons does produce a current. Current is the flow of _charge_.  Think of the Newton's Cradle toy. The middle balls barely move at all, but the momentum flows through them so that the "output" ball jumps out just as far as the "input" ball swings in. (minus losses of course.)

Agreed and yes, the billiard ball hypothesis was mentioned in my reply #32. Note that you can replace the inside row of balls with a thick solid steel rod that has very little horizontal compliance and the effect will be the same for the outer two balls.

I view what is happening inside the wire as a more dynamic model that includes an accumulation of charge flow inertia due to revving up of electron spin via the flow of charge past electrons that are predominately fixed by magnetic current flux and can otherwise only enjoy a small creepage effect (drift velocity). This may be wrong but it helps me to visualize such things as inductance which is otherwise explained by "fields". Something like moving quickly past a huge array of Tibetan prayer wheels. This is just my personal visualization tool and not necessarily correct.


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Is "charge" independent of "electrons"?

(We are taught that electrons are negatively charged.)
   

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Is "charge" independent of "electrons"?

(We are taught that electrons are negatively charged.)

That was/is my understanding as well Grumpy.

The electron is the charge carrier,so in order for the charge to be moving quicker,the carrier(the electron) must be moving quicker.

It's much like-if the wheels on a vehicle are rotating faster,then the vehicle is moving faster.

If we look at my test setup,we can see that it is the electric field produced by the toroid transformer that induces current flow in the single turn soft iron wire loop.
This electric field would only have to pass through one small portion of that single turn secondary loop in order to produce a set value of current flow. IOW,i believe that we could shield half of that single turn loop from the electric field,by having that single turn loop pass through a thick steel pipe,and the current flow through that loop would remain at the same value--maybe i will try this as well.

I see the electrons within a conductor being linked like a train,where only one small portion of that train is the engine that provides the motion.


Brad


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In your experiment, I thought that the magnetic field of the transformer with DC applied either aided or hindered the flow of current in the single loop with AC applied.

Is this assessment incorrect?

One may argue that the field in the transformer is affected by the AC applied to the single loop and therefore a transformer-like induction effect is induced in the single coil even though the transformer has only DC applied.

Have you tried a bar magnet in place of the transformer?

   

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In your experiment, I thought that the magnetic field of the transformer with DC applied either aided or hindered the flow of current in the single loop with AC applied.

Is this assessment incorrect?

One may argue that the field in the transformer is affected by the AC applied to the single loop and therefore a transformer-like induction effect is induced in the single coil even though the transformer has only DC applied.

Have you tried a bar magnet in place of the transformer?

Ok,you have lost me here Grumpy

The toroid transformer is supplied with an AC,and the field winding around the single turn secondary is supplied with a DC from my power supply.

The single turn secondary is induced via the alternating electric field from the toroid transformer,and the field winding around the single turn secondary is powered by my DC power supply.

Quote
Have you tried a bar magnet in place of the transformer?

I do not know what you mean here?


Brad


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  Light travels at 0.984 ft/nanosecond, so we often round this to
 c = 1 ft/ns.

Easy.

   I understand this is how fast a signal travels in a cable; the speed is NOT infinite.
   

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When using the fluid analogy in this context it will be helpful to define whether the system is compressible, in-compressible, or a mixture of the two which I define as semi-elastic.

A hydraulic system is virtually in-compressible (like Newtons cradle), although it should be noted that some compression is possible at high enough pressures but the property of elastic return is not necessarily present.

In the case that compressible pneumatic systems are relevant and can undergo explosive decompression which manifests as an acceleration where the body (the gas volume itself) expands to cover a larger area at a lower average density into a lower pressure medium. (Same mass spread over a larger area).

Semi-elastic is a mixture of the two and manifests as a gas bubble within a liquid body and can be compressed until the gas body reaches its compression limit. In reality extremely large pressure would be needed at diminishing rates of return to continue the volume reduction.

You can eject water from a nozzle at higher speeds by turning the pump pressure up until a limit is reached at which point no further acceleration of the liquid stream occurs but the additional pressure from the pump is stored in the liquid and you see a static pressure increase in the "stationary" liquid waiting to be ejected.

Got to go to work now no more time to elaborate.



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Current is not the flow of electrons, although a flow of electrons does produce a current. Current is the flow of _charge_.  Think of the Newton's Cradle toy. The middle balls barely move at all, but the momentum flows through them so that the "output" ball jumps out just as far as the "input" ball swings in. (minus losses of course.)



Quote: Electric charge is the physical property of matter that causes it to experience a force when placed in an electromagnetic field. There are two types of electric charges; positive and negative (commonly carried by protons and electrons respectively).

So i would have to disagree TK,as first there must be a flow of current in order for there to be the magnetic part of the electromagnetic field,and charge is carried by the electrons and protons.

In order for there to be a moving charge,there must be an electromagnetic field present in order to apply a force on that charge.

It is the electric field that induces an EMF across our secondary coil(referring to my posted experiment here),and when that path is close,and current starts to flow,only then do we get the magnetic part needed to make our electromagnetic field.

So how is !charge! already flowing,when the magnetic field only comes when current starts to flow?
What is flowing in an open coil when we measure an alternating voltage across it?

It is my belief that the electric field cuts the conductor and forces the electron to flow in one direction,and the protons in the other-so to speak.
It is also me belief that the magnetic field produced around the conductor due to current flow,is impeding this flow of electrons.


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Hi ION, hi Brad,

I know your a radio Ham like me ION, and I'm sure you know about this (video link). I also know this is at HF 28Mhz but it also applies at lower frequencies and can be either sine or square wave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUYI81dkEMA

The out of phase of current and voltage (180º) can be used to advantage I am hoping by creating feedback into the transformer feed. I'm after the current not the voltage, I want to add a current source to an elevated voltage source.

So far with my tests, the feedback current has melted wires and blown FETS when 180º to the resonating capacitor, I think detuning, moving the feed/feedback around the loop to some other point in relation to the tuning capacitor.

As is quite obvious, I do not need to radiate, transmit, a signal, I want to keep everything within the magnetic loop and as so a zero radiation efficiency (not what a HAM needs, but in this case yes).

I am putting all this on my STEAP revisited thread, just thought I would post this here after reading Brads posts. I really think this is what SM was doing, using a magnetic vortex to create current to add to what is a voltage boost converter. 8) 8) and simple.

Regards

Mike 8)


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Ok,you have lost me here Grumpy

The toroid transformer is supplied with an AC,and the field winding around the single turn secondary is supplied with a DC from my power supply.

The single turn secondary is induced via the alternating electric field from the toroid transformer,and the field winding around the single turn secondary is powered by my DC power supply.

I do not know what you mean here?


Brad

Never-mind, I had it totally wrong.  I thought the transformer was supplied with DC and the single loop was just a single loop with AC applied.  I didn't catch that the single loop had a wire wrapped around it.
   

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That was/is my understanding as well Grumpy.

The electron is the charge carrier,so in order for the charge to be moving quicker,the carrier(the electron) must be moving quicker.

It's much like-if the wheels on a vehicle are rotating faster,then the vehicle is moving faster.

If we look at my test setup,we can see that it is the electric field produced by the toroid transformer that induces current flow in the single turn soft iron wire loop.
This electric field would only have to pass through one small portion of that single turn secondary loop in order to produce a set value of current flow. IOW,i believe that we could shield half of that single turn loop from the electric field,by having that single turn loop pass through a thick steel pipe,and the current flow through that loop would remain at the same value--maybe i will try this as well.

I see the electrons within a conductor being linked like a train,where only one small portion of that train is the engine that provides the motion.


Brad

Based on your experiment and ION's first post in this topic, you may be able to drag electrons along the wire that has the DC winding around it by using a moving electric field.

This could be done mechanically by physically moving a charge coils or other object along a long conductor with a coil wrapped around it (like your single loop but much longer).

An alternative method would be to keep your single loop in a circle and sequentially apply HV to coils or other conductive members spaced around the circle.
   

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I have already posted this on my STEAP revisited thread, but I also think it is apt here considering the title.

Regards

Mike 8)

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circles/Lesson-4/Kepler-s-Three-Laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb%27s_law


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Brad

Just saw your very interesting wire experiment as I was busy with the prior post.

(Disclaimer of the following as I may have it wrong, please correct as needed)

If as conventional physics teaches that the movement of electrons in a conductor is very slow (drift velocity, um/sec), then our model must account for something moving much faster. Conventional physics then goes on to teach the billiard ball model, i.e. one electron at one end of the wire smacking into a long string of electrons and one being ejected. Other hypotheses (Ivor Catt etc) teach displacement current outside the wire as the fast purveyor, with the slow drift electrons tagging along at a much slower rate inside the wire because of collisions inside the wire (mean free path problem).

If we must regard drift velocity as true as it  has somehow been measured then it might be reasonable to consider that charge itself is the fast purveyor, thus I preferred the model that fast moving charge must arrange the electrons in a preferred ordering. Looking at the end of the wire can we assume that the ordering is in concentric circles, after all, the field outside the wire seems to take this ordering.

While this model may be wrong, it is a model that makes it easier for me to visualize moving charge as the mechanism of inductance as it adds spin to the (nearly) stationary electrons over time, which continues the flow of charge for some time when the applied current ceases, as the electrons have been spun up and must continue to pump charge until the spin energy is depleted back down to normal spin velocity.

It would seem that drift velocity alone is way too slow to account for the arcing of a current carrying circuit when the circuit is opened.

A good model should make it easy to visualize the mechanism of inductance, BEMF, skin effect etc.

So Brad you said:

I would agree, but would replace electron flow with charge flow.

Very nice experiment, something to be looked into more deeply. What happens if you use copper or aluminum wire in place of the soft iron wire?

Regards

http://resources.schoolscience.co.uk/cda/16plus/copelech2pg3.html

Anymore thoughts on the subject of the thread ION?.

Anyway,some more tests i carried out with the single loop through the toroid transformer.

Here i have 58 odd % of the secondary loop shielded by a half loop of thick steel pipe,and see no reduction in output of the secondary loop.
I also see virtually no increase in the magnetic field,or any sign of the poynting vector playing a part in the induction of the secondary.

In the next video(will post when done in next reply),you will see i have shielded 78% of the secondary loop,and once again-no reduction seen in output by the secondary.

Seems to me that only 1 small part of the secondary loop has to be exposed to the electric field in order to gain maximum output from the secondary.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n84bPUWLLLY


Brad


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