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2024-11-27, 02:19:11
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Author Topic: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that...  (Read 53089 times)
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img  MileHigh
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #25 on: 2010-08-27, 23:20:44 »
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AC:

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You can bash me as much as you like but if you intend to do this to others who cannot or will not defend themselves then you will have to deal with me as I will not tolerate it.

You "live" in a strange place AC.  You can spin my comments about Tesla as "bashing" by taking the lead from me saying that you were bashing me.  I was expressing my opinion, and you were welcome to debate what I said, but not to bash me.

Let's take the "1970s" as an example.  All of the cars, radios, multimeters, computers, and just about any other type of technology or product that you can think of from that decade is obsolete and gone forever.  That's just the reality.  So are you going to beat me up for saying that?  That was the main point that I made about Tesla, but in his case you have to turn the clock way way back.  So far back that we didn't even have plastic in common everyday use.  I think that you, and many others in the "Cult of Tesla" attribute way more importance to him than he truly deserves.  Then you factor in the fact that Tesla is being used by hucksters today, just like Elvis, and has become a tool or brand that others use to make money.

I still don't believe that you are an engineer.

Quote
> Well the first problem is that your detector is made of matter which emits identical wavelengths so you cannot measure anything, so tell me Einstein--- how would we go about this?

> I know the answer

I think you may be confused here, it was never my intent to give you an answer I was simply asking if you understood the problem.

I think you are the one that is confused.

MileHigh
   
img  duff
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #26 on: 2010-08-28, 00:20:49 »
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Quote from: allcanadian on 2010-08-26, 07:54:52

 Now lets assume we had a form of energy in the upper Terrahertz with wavelengths corresponding to the diameter of subatomic particles, how exactly would we measure these waves?. Well the first problem is that your detector is made of matter which emits identical wavelengths so you cannot measure anything, so tell me Einstein--- how would we go about this? I know the answer and it is simple and obvious and if you are half as smart as you think you are this should be easy for you.

Regards
AC

I think one might use a Bolometer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolometer
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #27 on: 2010-08-28, 00:32:04 »
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Maybe we should simply agree to disagree then and keep this on a technical basis as it should be, I do not think we need to degrade or marginalize anyone or their work to make our point.

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I think that you, and many others in the "Cult of Tesla" attribute way more importance to him than he truly deserves.

I attribute the same importance to Tesla as Faraday, Weber, Ampere, Hertz, Maxwell etc..., these were great men who laid the foundation for much of what we know today. I do not think we should trivialize any of their work even if some believe it is dated. Read the scientific journals concerning modern electrodynamics and you will find much of it in fact references their work by name. Do you find that odd? that much of modern technology would reference the work of persons 100 years ago --- such as the MIT wireless power transfer technology. The question one could ask here is if this wireless power transfer technology is in fact dated and obsolete then why was the MIT disclosure covered in almost every modern science journal or magazine? Why was it touted as the next big thing, a revolution in modern technology etc... when in fact it was disclosed and patented by Tesla a long long time ago?. What I also find odd here is that Tesla was lighting bulbs miles away while the best and brightest at MIT cannot even manage 10 feet, this should tell us a little something about who really understands the technology, as you say proof.
If we are going to go down this road then we may as say there is a "Cult of Maxwell" who's equations are now in question by modern science or a "Cult of Einstein" who's work being questioned as well. Most all of the scientific community grovelled at the feet of their grand insights and they were declared men of absolute genius yet most all in the field agree there work will not last the next 20 years before it is proven incorrect. If all that we know is continually proven wrong by new insights then one could ask what the hell do we really know? Who is to say someone must be right because they read something in a book when the book is rewritten all the time. We should be very careful when we judge, degrade or marginalize anything or anyone because things change, that is the one thing we do know for certain. I study the knowledge of the past to lay a solid foundation for the future, I cannot see how anyone can truly move forward until they know exactly where we have been.
Regards
AC


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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #28 on: 2010-08-28, 00:57:40 »
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I think one might use a Bolometer.
Good answer, I was thinking a little more conceptually though, let's say I am a bat and I can echo-locate things around me but can I sense the fluid I am immersed in, Air, with echo-location?. If there were a radiation of such small wavelength that it would sense no resistance then how can heat be generated, how can it be measured if there is no resistance to it's motion through anything? The act of measurement is in itself a form of interaction or resistance which is why there is a great deal of confusion in regards to observation and it's impact in physics.
Regards
AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #29 on: 2010-08-28, 02:09:46 »
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Quote from Allcanadian

Quote
What I also find odd here is that Tesla was lighting bulbs miles away while the best and brightest at MIT cannot even manage 10 feet, this should tell us a little something about who really understands the technology, as you say proof.

Not so odd really when you consider at the times of the Tesla tests (@1900) regarding the lighting of lightbulbs, there was no FCC regulating the transmitters with regard to frequency, spurious emissions, bandwidth and power. There were no TV,  radio stations, or aircraft guidance frequencies etc. that you had to be careful  to not interfere with.

Tesla was able to resonate circuits with hundreds or thousands of horsepower input, so yes he was able to light bulbs at a distance and no one complained of interference. Radio was just beginning to be born. The spark gaps he used to shock excite the tanks coils generated all kinds of spurious emissions.

The MIT boys certainly know how to transmit power, as do all good RF and microwave engineers. The problem is the constraints regarding interference and allowable limits of power input to the radiating sources.

Practical devices for charging cellphones and other small appliances operate at high frequencies, way above what Tesla was demonstrating. Who wants to be fried with thousands of watts in the gigahertz range? The problem is easy to see. It is 110 years later and regulations on radiated power abound, maybe rightfully so and for our own safety.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-28, 02:25:40 by ION »


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img  MileHigh
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #30 on: 2010-08-28, 03:39:28 »
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Ion:

You make some good points and let me try to add some colour commentary.  What follows is speculation on my part.  Let's assume that Tesla was fully aware that he was just doing a proof of concept of wireless energy transmission test when he lit up a light bulb a mile away.  He probably knew that he was radiating a massive amount of power in all directions to light up that light bulb.  So he knew that his efficiency was minuscule for that demonstration.  However, going back to the context of the times, and knowing that he was always looking for funding, and knowing that he knew that his audience was none the wiser, he probably simply never discussed this issue in public.  So Tesla was in "selling" mode, and I believe that he was almost always in that mode for his public demonstrations.

This is where the "Cult of Tesla" comes into play.  People quote examples like this without considering the issue of power transfer efficiency.  Then it simply takes on a life of its own and becomes legend.  They think that Tesla did something that was fantastic, and believe it, when chances are that Tesla himself knew that what he did was not fantastic.  At the same time, Tesla intentionally let people believe that he did something fantastic.  Tesla knew his audience.

By the same token, I doubt that Tesla had much more than a vague feeling for the energy spectrum that his spark-gap-based systems were radiating, nor did he have a concrete sense about how different wavelengths propagate through space relative to the size and impedance of the obstacles that were in their path.  From what I recall reading and watching documentaries about Tesla, he had a great mind for visualizing things like this in his head, but I don't think he put these visualizations on paper very often and then worked out the maths.

Time-warp forward to 1988.  You may have seen a Perter Lindemann video that is now floating around as a digital file.  He demonstrates "one-wire" energy transmission in a room with an assistant.  It's scary and noisy and you can hear that loud sizzling sound in the air as he lights up a 100-watt light bulb.  The tape last perhaps 30 minutes and then Peter signs off.  Peter never mentions anything about the efficiency of the single-wire energy transmission that covers a distance of 12 feet.  Nor does he discuss the fact that his spark gap cut across a huge swath of the spectrum and interfered with TV, radio, police, and other communications bands.  My impression was that Peter and his assistant were drawing kilowatts from the mains supply to light up that 100-watt light bulb.  When the tape ended I said to myself, "WTF?  Where are the numbers???"  So here Peter knew his audience also.  This was the videotape era, and people would gladly send in a $59.95 order and wait in anticipation for their videotape in the mail.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-08-28, 04:33:22 by MileHigh »
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #31 on: 2010-08-28, 04:33:15 »
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If Tesla were to light a bulb at precisely one location only and no other without wires, then I would have to admit he had accomplished something significant with his wireless power transmission.

But this is not the case and because the power could be tapped everywhere (by Tesla's own admission) implies that an enormous amount of power would have to be transmitted.

Tesla knew how much power would be required on the input side, but alluded to other things.

People like fireworks, and because Tesla made lots of big sparks at his demo's, investors,celebrities and laypersons were impressed and often opened their wallets.

I've been around a while, built my first Tesla coil back in the 50's. Since then I've seen Tesla morph from brilliant but eccentric inventor to New Age God, to Father of Free Energy.

The free energy never came yet people pour over his patents reading into them things they believe are secretly hidden clues, hoping to find the revelation that will make free energy happen.

The free energy engine is stoked by clowns and hucksters all too ready to pervert the mans legacy in order to sell a book or DVD......shameful.


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img  Allcanadian
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #32 on: 2010-08-28, 06:38:23 »
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This is where the "Cult of Tesla" comes into play.  People quote examples like this without considering the issue of power transfer efficiency.  Then it simply takes on a life of its own and becomes legend.  They think that Tesla did something that was fantastic, and believe it, when chances are that Tesla himself knew that what he did was not fantastic.  At the same time, Tesla intentionally let people believe that he did something fantastic.  Tesla knew his audience.

I cannot speak for other people but Tesla stated in his patents and elsewhere that there were very few losses even over considerable distances in his wireless power system. As well Tesla almost 100 years ago stated his power converters with so-called primitive spark gaps had efficiencies in excess of 86%, now tell me what is the efficiency of the last ten modern power converters you have tested? I can tell you as a fact I have yet to test a retail off the shelf converter that has exceeded 60% tested conversion efficiency. So "YES" I do think Tesla was a fantastic electrical engineer and inventor, how could you think otherwise considering the technology he had to work with. While were on the subject how would you know anything of what Tesla did or what he was thinking when you have stated in your posts that you have read almost none of his work and know very little about him? If I didn't know better I would say you just made this up without any justification or facts of any kind. Your posts would seem to have a history of degrading and marginalizing others work without justification or facts, where are your numbers?
Regards
AC


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #33 on: 2010-08-28, 06:42:12 »
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I cand add to allcanadian comment also one thing : clearly from reading Tesla lectures he was fully aware of spark gap looses and that was the reason why he invented plenty of circuit controllers like rotating breakers and later vacuum tube.But even with spark gap he was able to eliminate most of looses so his spark was silent and almost invisible! Remember about it!
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #34 on: 2010-08-28, 06:56:47 »
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AC:

You can see in my posting where I state that I was speculating.  But at the same time I have my own general technical knowledge to draw from.

You stated, "Tesla stated in his patents and elsewhere that there were very few losses even over considerable distances in his wireless power system."

How do you think this was accomplished?  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps in your mind this would apply to the example of lighting the light bulb that was a mile or more away wirelessly?

Whatever the case may be, what are your thoughts on wireless power transmission over considerable distances?  How could this be accomplished with very few losses?  Alternatively, perhaps you recall what some of the patents stated?

Thanks,

MileHigh
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #35 on: 2010-08-28, 14:12:55 »
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I can tell you as a fact I have yet to test a retail off the shelf converter that has exceeded 60% tested conversion efficiency.

I'd be curious to know what converters you have been testing that were only in the range of 60% efficient.  Can you supply a few manufacturers part numbers so we can get a better idea? Retail consumer grade converters are at the low end of the spectrum, where cost is the main factor, but they are still greater than 60% unless they are linear converters.. Maybe you were testing cheap 12VDC to 120/240 VAC converters. You did say retail.

If this (60%) were the case, designers of mains operated equipment would probably have stayed with the simplicity of a linear supply rather than go switchmode which is more complex and failure prone.

But most designs today are switchmode for several reasons, the most important of which is efficiency, which means less heatsinking(cost) fans(cost) transformer iron(cost) and copper(cost)

I would have been fired on the spot if I designed a converter with an efficiency that low. Our instruments would not tolerate the 40% waste heat you claim. The switchmode converters I designed over 25 years ago ran cool with efficiencies greater than 85% and are still in production.

Todays switchmode converters range from 85% to 95%, but again it depends on the application. Generally the higher the input working voltage, the higher the efficiency as semiconductor drops become less of a factor but this is not a hard and fast rule. So 12VDC to 120/240 AC converters are at a disadvantage.

It is also more than a bit unfair to compare retail equipment with laboratory or high end industrial grade "cost no object" equipment. Tesla's converter designs were huge, with hundreds of pounds of copper in order to keep the resistance loss as low as possible and thus the "Q" as high as possible.

These were not retail products, they were not even products, just laboratory curiosities.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-28, 14:47:52 by ION »


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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #36 on: 2010-08-28, 18:54:44 »

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a-hem...

Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-08-26, 14:44:36
I posted a link that has this book in the first post of this thread.  I would upload it but it is 8 meg.

Long story short, Tesla discovered how to manipulate the medium (so to speak).

EDIT: (Dirac's Sea)

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/186948

So, what do we know about this "sea"?  A dielectric that can be compressed and rarefacted?  What does that do the so-called constants: permeability and permittivity?

The Sea is a dielectric, based on what the trusty vacuum capacitor has to say about it.

Compression or rarefaction at the right location and time will cause it to move like a material gas.

Rotation perpendicular to a magnetic field will cause charge separation or induction through spin coupling (See the "Wilson Effect"), and that is what we "do with it".



Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-08-26, 15:51:44
Maxwell derived expressions for the dielectric constant and the magnetic permeability in terms of the transverse elasticity and the density of this elastic medium.

Changing the "density" of a region of space might be like creating a magnetic monopole.
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #37 on: 2010-08-28, 19:17:22 »
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You stated, "Tesla stated in his patents and elsewhere that there were very few losses even over considerable distances in his wireless power system."
How do you think this was accomplished?  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps in your mind this would apply to the example of lighting the light bulb that was a mile or more away wirelessly?
Whatever the case may be, what are your thoughts on wireless power transmission over considerable distances?  How could this be accomplished with very few losses?  Alternatively, perhaps you recall what some of the patents stated?

My thoughts are a little different than most I think as I tend to think simple, old school if you will, along the lines of Tesla, Ampere, Faraday and Webers work. Normally we would use an LC tank circuit and simply attach an antenna and ground, the changing potential in the tank produces a changing potential in the antenna wire and we radiate EM energy to a receiver. Now if we look at the work of Tesla and replications of this system by Konstantin Meyl we see the capacitor in the tank circuit has essentially been opened up, that is the capacitive component of the LC tank has now become the antenna in itself. Now let's ask a simple question, how effective can the antenna in a normal system be when the internal energy of the LC is divided between the open capacitance of the antenna and the internal capacitance of the LC?. Do you know the equation for series capacitance whereby the combined capacitance of two identical capacitors in series is just half the capacitance of either one. Now look at the setup of Konstantin Meyl here---http://www.scribd.com/doc/35933187/Wireless-Energy-Transfer, where is the series capacitance?. Look closely at the Mely setup and think clearly and simply, what do you see?
Quote
When inductors are connected in series, the total inductance is the sum of the individual inductors' inductances.
When capacitors are connected in series, the combined capacitance of two identical capacitors in series is just half the capacitance of either one.
I cannot speak for anyone else but I see no magic here, no fantastic claims or unexplainable phenomena ---- all I see is a singular LC circuit in which the capacitor is open and the inverse square law for series capacitance does not come into play. We should also be careful when considering resonance, many like to use the overly simplistic analogy of water sloshing back and forth in a closed system. The question we could ask here is what happens when pressure waves are produced which propagate through water which does not move persay?. Take a tube completely full of water and cover each end with flexible rubber, now push on one end and the other end is moved outward an equal amount, this is our standard conception of an electric current. Now push and release the rubber on one end and we see oscillations occur back and forth like an alternating current and we call this resonance, the inertia of the water displaces the rubber which acts as a capacitance because it stores pressure momentarily through displacement. Now what if we hit the rubber on the end of the tube so fast that the rubber diaphragm was set in oscillation but the water was not displaced? that is the rubber was compressed but not the water behind it. What if a condition was produced in which a pressure wave in the water was moving away from the rubber diaphragm due to it's inertia as the rubber diaphragm was moving backwards in the opposite direction in which case we could state the pressure wave has become truly independent of the source which produced it? This is not a standing wave as standing waves are intimately tied to the source, we are speaking of a single pressure wave completely independent of the source which produced it. You see simple analogies are great for understanding simple concepts but they have limitations and the moment you stop doing things in an ordinary way is the moment in which you stop getting ordinary results.
Regards
AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #38 on: 2010-08-28, 21:33:26 »
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AC:

I looked at that document, thanks.  I am not 100% sure but I think this statement quoted below is a "smoking gun" that destroys the credibility of the document:

Quote
If I put the transmitter into the aluminium case and close the door, then nothing should arrive at the receiver. Expert laboratories for electromagnetic compatibility in this case indeed cannot detect anything and that, although in spite of that the receiver lamps glow!

I believe that this is a common misconception about a Faraday cage.  The cage can stop external EM waves from penetrating inside the cage, but if you have a source of EM waves inside the cage, the cage will not prevent their transmission to the outside world.  I would have to confirm this.

I am looking at his video demonstration right now on Peswiki for fun.

Your tube of water example with the rubber diaphragms at each end makes sense to me.  In this case you can say sound traveling through the water is like a longitudinal wave, or it could just as easily be a transverse wave.  Same thing for sound traveling through steel, plastic, etc.

For my questions, can I ask you to try to reply again?  As far as I am concerned you are not addressing the questions I posed.

Thanks,

MileHigh
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #39 on: 2010-08-28, 23:32:58 »
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Speaking of hucksters, I knew the name of Konstantin Meyl would come up eventually.

Anyone who seriously believes in this man's teachings should put their money on the table and purchase one of his high priced demo kits....you know.....to support the man and his teachings.

Meyl does a little trick with LED's on the primary of small Tesla coils and makes the audience go ooh aah.

But it is a little trick that anyone can do at home with a few coils and a little patience.

If you bought  the demo kit, once you discover how the trick is done you will ask for your money back, but you will not get it

You will be a little wiser regarding resonant circuits when you unmask the trick.

Best of luck in your research.....caveat emptor
« Last Edit: 2010-08-29, 20:14:44 by ION »


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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #40 on: 2010-08-29, 02:26:49 »
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@milehigh
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You stated, "Tesla stated in his patents and elsewhere that there were very few losses even over considerable distances in his wireless power system."

Quote
That electrical energy can be economically transmitted without wires to any terrestrial distance, I have unmistakably established in numerous observations, experiments and measurements, qualitative and quantitative.  These have demonstrated that is practicable to distribute power from a central plant in unlimited amounts, with a loss not exceeding  a small fraction of one per cent, in the transmission, even to the greatest distance, twelve thousand miles—to the opposite end of the globe.
http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1905-01-07.htm

Quote
How do you think this was accomplished?  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps in your mind this would apply to the example of lighting the light bulb that was a mile or more away wirelessly?

I would suggest you read this first----http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1905-01-07.htm---- read it three times with a sufficient interval of time in between. How do I think it was accomplished? I know how it was not accomplished and that is through the radiation of energy which should be obvious but this is exactly what we always do isn't it. How can radiating large quantities of energy into space be efficient in any way when we lose almost everything? This is where many have made the mistake of assuming too much, of understanding Tesla's words from our perspective and not his. When Tesla speaks of resonance and standing waves is he referring to the radiation of EM energy into a space or is he speaking of EM energy in his coil setting something external into oscillation at resonance producing standing waves?

Quote
But the fact that stationary waves are producible in the earth is of special and, in many ways, still greater significance in the intellectual development of humanity.  Popularly explained, such a wave is a phenomenon generically akin to an echo—a result of reflection.  It affords a positive and uncontrovertible experimental evidence that the electric current, after passing into the earth travels to the diametrically opposite region of the same and rebounding from there, returns to its point of departure with virtually undiminished force.
http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1905-01-07.htm

Did I mention I performed an experiment whereby I could have 20 or more feet of wire which could be insulated or not and of any gauge and I would attach one end of the wire to the open gate of a mosfet. Now if I touched the other end of the wire with my finger(+charge) the mosfet closed the circuit including a 12v battery and a 12v light came on and if I grounded the wire or touched the single (-) terminal of a separate battery the mosfet opened the circuit and the light went out---- what does this tell you?. It tells me that by changing the surface charge on a wire of extended length I can turn the mosfet on or off with a very small amount of external energy. It is interesting that a person could charge this single wire and leave it for hours and still it would switch the mosfet gate. Now read the quote above again -- Is Tesla speaking of radiating EM energy into the atmosphere where nearly all is lost as many have assumed or is he speaking of the application of a resonant surface charge to the exterior of our planet which can be regarded as a capacitance?. There was a great man by the name of Victor Schauberger who once said--"Do the opposite of what we do today", I live by these words and the devices I design are nothing like what you know and that is why they work so well. They do not defy the laws of nature or science they simply work differently which isn't a bad thing.
Regards
AC

« Last Edit: 2010-08-29, 02:52:19 by allcanadian »


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #41 on: 2010-08-29, 03:40:11 »

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Quote from: ION on 2010-08-28, 23:32:58
Speaking of hucksters, I knew the name of Konstantin Meyl would come up eventually.

Anyone who seriously believes in this man's teachings should put thieir money on the table and purchase one of his high priced demo kits....you know.....to support the man and his teachings.

Meyl does a little trick with LED's on the primary of small Tesla coils and makes the audience go ooh aah.

But it is a little trick that anyone can do at home with a few coils and a little patience.

If you bought  the demo kit, once you discover how the trick is done you will ask for your money back, but you will not get iit

You will be a little wiser regarding resonant circuits when you unmask the trick.

Best of luck in your research.....caveat emptor

What is the trick?

What about Dr. Stiffler?
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #42 on: 2010-08-29, 17:00:57 »
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Hi G

Ok  Examine this drawing of the meylkit carefully. It shows two of the identical mini Tesla assemblies (separated by a dotted line) as supplied in his kit. Notice where the LED"s  can be connected.....across the primary of the coil.

The generator he uses is not shown in this schematic, but can be seen in the documentation for the kit.

Read the kit documentation keeping your eye on the location of the LED's

I'll not answer this right off, but give others a chance to figure it out and feel free to chime in.

Edit: can't upload the kit documentation...it is too large, I'll have to find a way to shrink it.
Edit: tried to split the document in two parts with Foxit pdf printer, now each half is over 2 meg.
Regrettably cannot post it yet.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-29, 19:57:04 by ION »


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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #43 on: 2010-08-29, 18:20:29 »
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AC:

I read the Tesla article.  He certainly was very forward looking for sure and you can see how he was speculating about the arrival of the Information Age and most of what he said came true.

With respect to the ability to transmit power to light up a light bulb one mile away with very high efficiency, I am assuming that you are basing this on Tesla's writings.  In other words, you are more or less basing your statements on the blind faith that Tesla was right.  You are offering no mechanism for explaining this process.

Sorry, for myself I don't think like that most of the time.

Wow, I got lucky and found the clip, have a look at this: "1975 NASA JPL Goldstone Demo of Wireless Power Transmission"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O44WM1Q9H8

That's the only way that I am aware of for doing high-efficiency point-to-point wireless power transmission.

The only way that you can transmit power point-to-point as per the Tesla example is with a line-of-sight system as shown in the clip.  This requires that your transmitting wavelength is 1/10th or less than the diameter of your dish.  As the wavelength gets longer you cannot direct the beam anymore and you end up broadcasting in all directions and your efficiency then drops to an abysmally low level.  The technology to do this simply did not exist around 110 years ago.  Since you claim that you are an engineer, that's what I was expecting you to say.

Going back to the last third of Tesla's article, I don't believe it.  Simple as that.  Tesla was either deluded or lying when he states that he could set up standing waves across the earth and that you could tap into that power with very high efficiency between the power source and the receiver.  The surface of the earth is a lossy reflector and the ionosphere is also a lossy reflector, and all of this is a function of frequency.  Your power is being spread across the entire surface of the earth such that your power density is extremely low.  It's simply ridiculous to suggest that you can set up standing waves across the entire earth and tap into them with high efficiency.

For the light bulb experiment, my best guess is that Tesla had a huge steam engine driving a huge high-voltage dynamo connected to a huge high-voltage capacitor and some sort of motor driven discharge mechanism that operated at a certain base frequency.  That resulted in the transmission of the fundamental frequency and all of the other unwanted harmonics associated with transmitting a square wave.  All the energy associated with the harmonic waves would be lost by definition.  He then created some sort of an antenna setup that was an LC tank circuit that was tuned to the fundamental frequency of the square wave and the light bulb was put across the nodes of the LC tank circuit.  He found that if he pumped something like 50 kilowatts into the spark-gap transmitter that he could make a 100-watt light bulb light up one mile away.

So no, I don't believe that Tesla had a magic "secret sauce" for high-efficiency point-to-point electrical power transmission that we need to rediscover.  The reality on the ground in the present day and age is that the most efficient way to transmit power over long distances is with high-tension power transmission lines.  To go back to one of my earlier themes, the concept of the wireless transmission of high power was superseded by high-tension  power transmission lines.  Perhaps Tesla has the last laugh here because he probably designed the high-tension transmission line system in the first place when he built the world's first power plant at Niagara Falls.

For your MOSFET example, it's what can be expected, nothing remarkable there.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-08-29, 19:34:26 by MileHigh »
   
img  ion
Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #44 on: 2010-08-29, 22:11:20 »
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Her's an initial statement early in the meylkit.pdf that is quite a claim. Now if this doesn't make people want to rush out and buy a kit what will?

The book for the demo kit is titled "Scalar Wave Technology"

One torrent attached has a load of FE books including the Meyl stuff.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-29, 22:29:35 by ION »


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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #45 on: 2010-08-29, 22:41:13 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Here is the claim and conclusion he reaches. Anybody see the problem?


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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #46 on: 2010-08-30, 00:12:37 »
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Ion:

I will take a few stabs at your questions, but I my confidence here is quite low, I don't truly know the answer.

Firstly, I always cringe when I see people using LEDs as a means of indicating or measuring power.  They are non-linear diodes and it is almost impossible to measure the power dissipation through them.  Also, your human visual perception is severely handicapped when it comes to determining brightness of a flashing LED when it is above your threshold of seeing seeing the flashing, and then equating that to power.  You can't tell what the duty cycle is so two LEDs that have exactly the same apparent brightness could be dissipating different amounts of power. 

Secondly, I am suspicious of the single wire connection between the two devices.  That wire could actually be the "hot" wire and the physical plane or material underneath the whole setup could be acting as a capacitively-coupled transmission line ground plane.

Thirdly, and this is a long-shot, the source transmitter could possibly be in standing-wave resonance such that no current is flowing through the LEDs so they don't light up.

Finally, and this is a biggie:  Is this guy really supposed to be a professor of electrical engineering at a German university?  That's not the language of an electrical engineering professor that this guy is using, it is typical Tesla/free energy/"alternative" technology babble.  There is nothing remotely scientific with respect to this guy's choice of words.  It has no credibility whatsoever as far as I am concerned.

I doubt that I got the answer but perhaps I was warm?

MileHigh
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #47 on: 2010-08-30, 03:25:26 »
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Meyl has a few impressive credentials.

My first view of him was giving a lecture on this topic. He sounds much more intelligent when speaking his native tongue.

My impression is he is giving way to some important facts just to sway his comrades into listening. If he told it the way it is they would call the Bundespolizei.

My first alarm went off when he stated the operating frequency of the experiment on display. Resonance is different with scalar. Instead of cutting the wire for full wavelength by calculating the distance over time for a full cycle, the wire length would be cut for distance over time for rise and/or fall time.

Scalar waves don't require a return path. They do follow the inverse square law but normally suffer additional losses when one of the paths (spherical capacitor to spherical capacitor and/or common ground/Earthing) is impeded by additional induced currents in the Earth by the longitudinal E field. This E field should be parallel to the Earth's surface.

So, exponential loss of the signal with distance is normally a good indicator the waves are not transverse. No such loss would exist in transverse waves.

I don't know what is up with him except maybe he still hasn't acclimated to using Maxwell's 4th in the inverse or the fact that conductors aren't required by currently accepted laws.

The higher the education - the further off the deep end they can go  :D 
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #48 on: 2010-08-30, 15:54:25 »

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I am fairly familiar with the Tesla Transmitter and the Magnifier.  As far as I know, Tesla never stated that the device was capable of producing more power than inout to it.  He did state that all of the transmitted energy was recoverable and not lost like with a radiative antenna.

I feel anyone looking at either of Tesla's systems, the 2-coil Transformer or the Magnifier, should ignore any and all popular explanations of the devices, as well as the many fabulous unfounded claims.

The top terminal is the plate of a capacitor.  If you are familiar with Tesla's Colorado Springs Notes, he strove for the extreme voltages at the top terminal, and even considered that power transmission might be possible by meer capacitive coupling.  It is possible that the voltage achieved is higher than what can be readily explained.  This does not mean that extra energy has been added to the system.  I want to see a real test of the Magnifier, which shows gain at the recievers and this should not be hard to do with a small portable system. 

Being a capacitor plate, the terminal will seek to couple to anything conductive, but most will not form a complete circuit.  Energy is transferred between the top terminals via displacement current through the natural medium (space, vacuum, oatmeal...).  However, there is a limit to the voltage on the top terminal.  So, you may couple 1000 circuits to this terminal, but there is a still a limit.  There is also a limit to how far away you can be from the transmitter.  One Magnifier could not serve the entire planet.

Another important note is that the ground (earth) is a very good insulator.  This makes it an excellent conductor for displacement current.  So, with separated ground plates, you have another capacitive couple to complete the circuit.

(I'll add more in a minute...)

Tesla stated in an interview when he was in his 70's that the Magnifier was the method of power transmission at the time, and that this is not the method that he would use now.  (I like to think that he later discovered a new way to generate electricity at the point of use which negated the need for transmission.)

I am sure Tesla would have been able to tell if he was recieving more energy than he supplied to the system, and I do not think he would had hid this fact had he known.


« Last Edit: 2010-08-30, 16:58:13 by Grumpy »
   
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Re: Radiant Electricty, Cold Current, and all that... « Reply #49 on: 2010-08-30, 17:11:29 »
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Quote
Finally, and this is a biggie:  Is this guy really supposed to be a professor of electrical engineering at a German university?  That's not the language of an electrical engineering professor that this guy is using, it is typical Tesla/free energy/"alternative" technology babble.  There is nothing remotely scientific with respect to this guy's choice of words.  It has no credibility whatsoever as far as I am concerned.

LOL, that was priceless, so are you saying he has no credibility because he talks funny? Maybe we could just as well say he has no credibility because he dresses funny or because his hair is brown,lol. I have a couple friends I grew up with, one a math professor at a well know university who steer wrestles and wears a cowboys hat, drinks beer and curses, he never wrote a test in his life that scored below 95%, everyone calls him a genius. My other friend an engineer at the top 1% in his field wears bandanas, metallica t-shirts, rides a Harley, he talks and looks like a mechanic and he has aced almost every exam he ever wrote, I think he is brilliant as well. In fact I have found most of the people who talk and act like they know everything are the ones who know very little, I would be more careful how you judge people.
Thank god Im a redneck:)
Regards
AC
« Last Edit: 2010-08-30, 20:20:39 by allcanadian »


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