Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils

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2024-11-27, 04:52:03
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Author Topic: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils (Read 220927 times)

Itsu	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #550 on: 2017-05-12, 16:42:40 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	PM, Thanks for the info about the current probe. Since i know about its delay and the minimum deskew posibilities of my scope (3 May 2017) i did not use it in any Pin / Pout measurements. All current measurements where done using a 1 Ohm csr on CH2 (blue). Itsu

partzman	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #551 on: 2017-05-12, 19:01:03 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: Itsu on 2017-05-12, 16:42:40 PM, Thanks for the info about the current probe. Since i know about its delay and the minimum deskew posibilities of my scope (3 May 2017) i did not use it in any Pin / Pout measurements. All current measurements where done using a 1 Ohm csr on CH2 (blue). Itsu Itsu, Thanks for that input as I assumed you were using your current probe for the measurements. Normally, if you were using the P6139A 10X probe, any induction from the DUT (and there will be plenty) into the probe and cable will have an effect of advancing the phase angle as if there was too much negative deskew. This will vary with probe placement and whether a ground clip or lead is used. So, it makes no sense as your test IMO should have indicated COPs at least in the 90% not 66% area even on a bad day! Puzzling ? Pm Edit: I see you were using a 1x probe on the CSR so the current measurement should be reasonably accurate. Still puzzled about the low COPs however!

Itsu	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #552 on: 2017-05-12, 20:01:19 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Yes, sorry, these latest tests i use, like you do, a x1 probe for the current (Blue) measurements. Itsu

gyula	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #553 on: 2017-05-12, 20:15:39 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1195	Quote from: partzman on 2017-05-12, 13:45:22 .... I am working on an optical current probe based on a technology I developed years ago for an IR feedback potentiometer to replace the mechanical pot in servos. It would extremely linear and should be good to 50MHz and perhaps higher. We shall see. ... Hi Partzman, I have come across a fiber optic isolated scope probe circuit design, with >30 MHz bandwidth capability for around $50 component cost: https://hackaday.io/project/12231-fiber-optic-isolated-voltage-probe with downloadable files (PCB Gerber, Bill of Materieals etc) Perhaps gives you further ideas. Gyula

conradelektro	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #554 on: 2017-05-12, 20:57:19 »
Jr. Member Posts: 90	Quote from: Allcanadian on 2017-05-11, 15:30:20 I always found it strange that many say they believe that energy is conserved and cannot be created or destroyed and yet use terms like wasted or consumed as if it simply vanished into thin air. As such the argument is always one sided in their mind. They say they believe energy is conserved then in the next breath say every star radiates energy but space is empty or energy is radiated away into nothing but we cannot get something from nothing. As such it is always a one sided argument which contradicts itself. I found the easiest way to understand all Free Energy devices is to truly believe the Conservation of Energy holds in every case universally and in no way can it ever be created or destroyed only transformed. If they truly believed Energy must be conserved in every case then the only reasonable answer is that we must be swimming in a sea of energy. There may be no free lunch but we are swimming in food. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy "In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time" I do not claim that there is OU, but I claim that the problem with the theory of "conservation of energy" is the idea that there is an "isolated system". Nobody ever lived in an "isolated system" und nobody knows how to create an "isolated system". So, you can say what ever you want about the non existent "isolated system", nobody will ever be able to prove it or to disprove it. "Conservation of energy" is a hypothetical idea based on the mainstream understanding of nature. Every system is part of a bigger system and may receive energy from the encircling system or may transfer energy into the encircling system. The bigger system for earth clearly is the sun. For us humans the power of the sun is eternal and OU, because the sun will out-power and out-live every human. The human scale is very much smaller than the scale of the sun. And for every conceivable system you will find the bigger system encompassing it. A solar cell is OU in the sense, that the sun shines for free on the human scale. A super nova (if near enough) will destroy the sun, so a super nova is OU for a sun. And a massive black hole is OU for a whole galaxy. An OU machine is a machine that uses energy from the bigger system encompassing the system in which someone builds the OU machine. And it might be impossible to see the energy influx, because we are not aware of the encompassing system. So, "conservation of energy" might hold or not, but we can never prove or disprove "conservation of energy". And yes, we are swimming in a sea of energy and its source is the sun. Most people can not see that, but nature on earth uses the sun (ultimately as its only energy source) since at least 4 billion years. And we can use the suns energy at least for 100 million years more. Oil and natural gas also were created by the sun, because the dead creatures and plants which formed the oil and gas once lived (million years ago) on earth because of the sun. Greetings, Conrad

partzman	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #555 on: 2017-05-12, 21:22:49 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: gyula on 2017-05-12, 20:15:39 Hi Partzman, I have come across a fiber optic isolated scope probe circuit design, with >30 MHz bandwidth capability for around $50 component cost: https://hackaday.io/project/12231-fiber-optic-isolated-voltage-probe with downloadable files (PCB Gerber, Bill of Materieals etc) Perhaps gives you further ideas. Gyula Gyula, Thanks for the link above. Certainly most interesting and worth a try particularly for use in CSR low voltage sensing applications. I am amazed at the cost of brand named scopes and probes with high bandwidth and when asked to measure low voltages at say 1MHz in the presence of inductive fields, they fall flat on their faces regarding accuracy. Pm

Itsu	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #556 on: 2017-05-12, 21:54:58 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	PM, to rule out any confusion, looking at your drawing, it could be interpreted that L1 and L2 are not similarly wound, like L1 is Clockwise, while L2 looks Counterclockwise. I gathered that that would be NOT the case and both coils are wound the similar way (like CW) and that is how i have hooked up my bifilar pancake coil, both windings are clockwise and the outer 2 wires of the pancake coil are connected to C1 and C2, while the inner 2 wires are connected to R1 (100 Ohm). Please confirm. Itsu ------------------------ Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils MEAD Schematic.png (20.02 kB, 785x696 - viewed 1024 times.)

partzman	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #557 on: 2017-05-12, 22:46:33 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: Itsu on 2017-05-12, 21:54:58 PM, to rule out any confusion, looking at your drawing, it could be interpreted that L1 and L2 are not similarly wound, like L1 is Clockwise, while L2 looks Counterclockwise. I gathered that that would be NOT the case and both coils are wound the similar way (like CW) and that is how i have hooked up my bifilar pancake coil, both windings are clockwise and the outer 2 wires of the pancake coil are connected to C1 and C2, while the inner 2 wires are connected to R1 (100 Ohm). Please confirm. Itsu Itsu, I can see that the schematic could be taken to be counter wound coils but they are wound together as you assumed and you have them connected correctly. If you wish to give it another go, try this configuration: Remove C1 and C2, connect Rs to the end of L1 and leave the other end of L2 open. With this arrangement, adjust the frequency range until the current lags the input voltage and check for a small COP>1. This removes any effects the caps may have had on circuit function and induction is now fully dependent on displacement current. All measurement connections remain the same as the previous test. Pm

Itsu	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #558 on: 2017-05-13, 09:56:20 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	PM, ok, good to know. I have dug out my Arie de Geus Bifilar solenoid coil and put it into your circuit, but this one is way under COP=1 all the way. I will remove C1 and C2 etc. later today to do some tests on the TBF coil. One question still, do you have all 3 scope probe ground connections at the FG black lead point? Or should i leave Ch1 and CH3 ungrounded? Itsu

partzman	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #559 on: 2017-05-13, 13:56:27 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: Itsu on 2017-05-13, 09:56:20 PM, ok, good to know. I have dug out my Arie de Geus Bifilar solenoid coil and put it into your circuit, but this one is way under COP=1 all the way. I will remove C1 and C2 etc. later today to do some tests on the TBF coil. One question still, do you have all 3 scope probe ground connections at the FG black lead point? Or should i leave Ch1 and CH3 ungrounded? Itsu Itsu, I have tried all the combinations of ground connections. The recommendation by most is to have a single ground from the circuit to the scope so the most logical in this case is to only connect the ground of the probe connected across the CSR. All other grounds would be left unconnected. Using a spring clip ground and probe tip placed directly at the body of the CSR is the most accurate IMO. Even at 100khz the 2-3" ground lead acts like an antenna as you well know. Also, I hate to be so insistent about this but if you are not using cursor measurements, then you must be sure you have precise complete cycles (zero crossing to zero crossing) from side to side on your screen. Any deviation from this while using your Math channel to calculate input power will result in a lower COP. A reality check could be done using your current probe since the current probe is far less susceptible to induction than the hi-Z scope probes. Having all your channels set to 0.0 deskew and assuming your probe/amp combo has a delay of 30ns (may not be correct) you would then do a phase measurement between the input voltage and the probe current. This reading would then be corrected by d = td360f where d = degrees of correction, td is the delay is seconds, and f is the frequency in hertz. For example, at 500khz with a 30ns delay, d = 30e-9 * 360 * 5e5 = 5.4 degrees. This would be added to the original phase reading and then do cosine math with the input voltage and current rms values. Pm Edit: Although I appreciate your effort in this, I wouldn't recommend spending more time as the gain is so small at this point to be of any use if it is real. « Last Edit: 2017-05-13, 17:54:09 by partzman »

Itsu	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #560 on: 2017-05-13, 20:46:15 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	PM, i understand that the gain is very small, if any, but just to show that even with some finer adjustments in measurements protocol it will not show anywhere near COP=1 i toke another set of data using the MEAD schematic, so WITH C1 and C2 still in. Changes made are: Ch1 and CH3 probes ground leads DISCONNECTED CH2 (x1 probe) using an RF tip, directly connected over Rs (csr) Pin was calculated by using math data between its vertical cursors Pout was calculated as normal using CH1 - Ch3 / 100. Not sure if i will do another run without C1 and C2 like suggested. Regards Itsu ------------------------ Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils Pin v Pout graph 2.png (21.39 kB, 1241x617 - viewed 943 times.)

Itsu	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #561 on: 2017-05-13, 21:20:24 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Here the both runs combined in one Graph Itsu ------------------------ Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils Pin 1 - Pin 2 v Pout 1 - Pout 2 graph.png (34.85 kB, 1778x953 - viewed 914 times.)

Itsu	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #562 on: 2017-05-14, 10:39:12 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Quote from: partzman on 2017-05-12, 22:46:33 Itsu, I can see that the schematic could be taken to be counter wound coils but they are wound together as you assumed and you have them connected correctly. If you wish to give it another go, try this configuration: Remove C1 and C2, connect Rs to the end of L1 and leave the other end of L2 open. With this arrangement, adjust the frequency range until the current lags the input voltage and check for a small COP>1. This removes any effects the caps may have had on circuit function and induction is now fully dependent on displacement current. All measurement connections remain the same as the previous test. Pm i presume you meant "current leads the input voltage" on the above sentence. Anyway, i set up the circuit as described above using my TBP coil, but looking for the correct 87° phase shift relationship between voltage and current (current leading) it leads me to around 17Mhz. At this frequency all things interact with each other and a sensible measurement is practically impossible. The results i got did not make much sense: 17.4MHz Pin 730uW, Pout 82uW. Perhaps i can use my Arie de Geus bifilar solenoid coil which has a much lower resonance frequency. Itsu

partzman	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #563 on: 2017-05-14, 15:04:23 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: Itsu on 2017-05-14, 10:39:12 i presume you meant "current leads the input voltage" on the above sentence. Anyway, i set up the circuit as described above using my TBP coil, but looking for the correct 87° phase shift relationship between voltage and current (current leading) it leads me to around 17Mhz. At this frequency all things interact with each other and a sensible measurement is practically impossible. The results i got did not make much sense: 17.4MHz Pin 730uW, Pout 82uW. Perhaps i can use my Arie de Geus bifilar solenoid coil which has a much lower resonance frequency. Itsu Itsu, Actually I did mean current lagging the input voltage. It all depends on the configuration of which there are many. I've attached a paper on a test of a coil that is similar in specs to yours but layer wound and not like a TBP so maybe this will help if you wish to continue experimenting. I have stopped my research in this area and am pursuing the unique properties of the series connected symmetrical transmission line which I believe is being overlooked. Pm ------------------------ PPD_350A (Revised) 11_22_15.pdf (468.66 kB - downloaded 273 times.)

TinMan	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #564 on: 2018-12-25, 15:31:17 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Itsu on 2017-05-12, 16:42:40 PM, Thanks for the info about the current probe. Since i know about its delay and the minimum deskew posibilities of my scope (3 May 2017) i did not use it in any Pin / Pout measurements. All current measurements where done using a 1 Ohm csr on CH2 (blue). Itsu Itsu Would this delay with your current probe be the reason for your voltage and current offset on the OU thread?. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #565 on: 2018-12-25, 15:40:35 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Bumping this thread here,in relation to the thread at OU.com https://overunity.com/17861/bifilar-pancake-coil-overunity-experiment/msg528750/#new Anyway,need some input by the well versed EE guys here. I threw together a quick bifi coil--just a B-D-N- style--two windings wound on at the same time. My coil is air core -about 12mm wide,and 50mm in diameter.50 turns each of .6mm wire. On either side of the coil,i glued a 10mm x 25mm ceramic magnet,so as like poles were facing each other. Anyway,while sweeping the frequency,i found what might be called !a sweet spot! The circuit is as below,are as scope probe placings. The scope shot shows the traces. P/out is no problem-->2.25vrms across 10 ohms=506mW But what is my P/in if there is no voltage drop across the CSR ? I see no other path for the current to flow,other than through the CSR Am i missing something here? Brad ------------------------ Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils oddity 1.JPG (95.47 kB, 800x480 - viewed 487 times.) Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils tk-partzman-optimized 2.JPG (50.6 kB, 859x643 - viewed 478 times.) --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

ion	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #566 on: 2018-12-25, 16:18:20 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Very nice. First guess is that the open ended transmission line primary is nulling the current by the reflected wave at the sweet spot. That's one way to explain why you are not seeing current in the CSR with the present setup, but will look closer as it's just a guess. Next step I would try putting the CSR in the return leg of the sig gen and see what you get and maybe try to isolate the sig gen output using a small transformer with low capacitance coupling. Definitely worth more investigation. Can you describe your bifilar coil or post a pic? Cheers --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

gyula	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #567 on: 2018-12-25, 16:54:56 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1195	Hi Brad, There can be another explanation besides what Ion proposes. Your bifi coil developes a parallel resonance (by its two windings and their distributed capacitance and the scope probe self cap added). So this parallel resonant 'LC tank' is able to produce 2.25 V across the 10 Ohm, this then involves 225 mA current in the tank. So the input current to this resonant 'LC tank' should be Q time less than 225 mA i.e. if the loaded Q is say 50, then the input current should be 225/50=4.5 mA, this small current can cause 4.5 mA * 2 Ohm = 9mV drop across the CSR. Can this small voltage difference be distinguished in the 2 V/DIV scope settings? I think it is hard, so perhaps a direct differencial mode scope measurement is to be done to see the small voltage drop across the CSR. Gyula

Itsu	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #568 on: 2018-12-25, 20:39:58 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Quote from: TinMan on 2018-12-25, 15:31:17 Itsu Would this delay with your current probe be the reason for your voltage and current offset on the OU thread?. Hi Brad, no, as i now know the amount of delay of my current probe and how i (almost) can compensate for it by using the deskew function of my scope (set the voltage probes to max. positive (10ns) deskew and the current probe to max. negative (-10ns) deskew. Depending on the frequency used i then have a minimum delay (phase difference) between current probe and voltage probes of about 10°, so not the 52° difference i see in my measurements with the PBT. I did explain this in that thread and i did add the 10° all the time to get the actual phase difference. Itsu

TinMan	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #569 on: 2018-12-26, 00:26:20 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Itsu on 2018-12-25, 20:39:58 Hi Brad, no, as i now know the amount of delay of my current probe and how i (almost) can compensate for it by using the deskew function of my scope (set the voltage probes to max. positive (10ns) deskew and the current probe to max. negative (-10ns) deskew. Depending on the frequency used i then have a minimum delay (phase difference) between current probe and voltage probes of about 10°, so not the 52° difference i see in my measurements with the PBT. I did explain this in that thread and i did add the 10° all the time to get the actual phase difference. Itsu Ok,thanks Itsu I did not read the whole thread at OU.com,so i missed that bit--my bad. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #570 on: 2018-12-26, 00:30:27 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	author=ion link=topic=3445.msg70645#msg70645 date=1545754700] Quote Next step I would try putting the CSR in the return leg of the sig gen and see what you get and maybe try to isolate the sig gen output using a small transformer with low capacitance coupling. Yes,that was my next step. But using an isolation transformer is pointless when the scope and FG share a common ground. Once all connected,there is no longer any isolation. Quote Can you describe your bifilar coil or post a pic? Yes,i will go take a pic now. Quote Definitely worth more investigation. I agree. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #571 on: 2018-12-26, 00:32:08 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: gyula on 2018-12-25, 16:54:56 Hi Brad, There can be another explanation besides what Ion proposes. Your bifi coil developes a parallel resonance (by its two windings and their distributed capacitance and the scope probe self cap added). So this parallel resonant 'LC tank' is able to produce 2.25 V across the 10 Ohm, this then involves 225 mA current in the tank. So the input current to this resonant 'LC tank' should be Q time less than 225 mA i.e. if the loaded Q is say 50, then the input current should be 225/50=4.5 mA, this small current can cause 4.5 mA * 2 Ohm = 9mV drop across the CSR. Can this small voltage difference be distinguished in the 2 V/DIV scope settings? I think it is hard, so perhaps a direct differencial mode scope measurement is to be done to see the small voltage drop across the CSR. Gyula Thanks Gyula I will give that a try. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #572 on: 2018-12-26, 01:14:19 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Below is a couple of pics of the coil. The former used is from the turntable motor of a microwave oven. Bifi wound-around 50 turns x 2 of .6mm wire. Two ceramic magnets,1 glued each side,so as like fields are facing each other. Also the schematic below. As Itsu and void have pointed out,the position of the CSR and the scope probe placement,will not show the phase offset between voltage and current input. Placing the CSR on the ground leg between FG and L1,R1,will show us the offset,but we then cannot measure the voltage drop across R1(the load resistor) Brad ------------------------ Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils 49298164_10156025086245905_3431316125156114432_n.jpg (56.48 kB, 714x960 - viewed 363 times.) Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils 48376621_10156025085605905_8793338328968593408_n.jpg (57.53 kB, 714x960 - viewed 363 times.) Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils tk-partzman-optimized 2.JPG (50.6 kB, 859x643 - viewed 354 times.) --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #573 on: 2018-12-26, 02:43:44 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	New test setup and parameters. I have shifted the CSR to the ground rail. As can be seen,there is little phase shift between voltage and current. I used the scope to calculate all math,including the A-B calculation in the output test to obtain our voltage across R2(the load resistor). This is so the scope can calculate for phase shift as well. I have the scope probes set to 10x,and also each channel of the scope,so as the values shown by the scope remain correct. Setting the probes to the 10x setting allows for very little impact on the circuit values when the probes and ground leads are connected to the circuit. The first pic shows the circuit,scope probe placement,and resulting scope shot with math calculation. Our P/in seems to be a steady 109mW as calculated by the scope. Note the current flowing through R1 is 35.5mA The second pic shows the circuit,scope probe placement,and resultant VRMS value across the 10 ohm load resistor. Our P/out is then 1.9vRMS across the 10 ohm load resistor. P/out=361mW. Note the current flowing through R2(the load resistor) is then 190mA,and the transformer turn ratio is 1:1 Our COP in this test seems to be 331% Brad ------------------------ Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils P IN MAG COIL.JPG (78.74 kB, 645x608 - viewed 345 times.) Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils P OUT MAG COIL.JPG (81.21 kB, 645x608 - viewed 342 times.) « Last Edit: 2018-12-26, 03:55:46 by TinMan » --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

muDped	Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #574 on: 2018-12-26, 05:23:26 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Very interesting test result TinMan. I wonder what the actual circuitry would look like when including the significant capacitance within the specially wound coil. Anyone have any ideas on how that might shape up? Seeing all the "parts" in the circuit may help to visualize what actually may be taking place. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

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