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Author Topic: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils  (Read 221004 times)
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img  partzman
Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #325 on: 2017-05-05, 13:30:17 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2017-05-05, 00:22:51
It was also my suggestion and I think it predated ION's

Verpies,

Yes I apologize for not recognizing you for that suggestion.  In my early testing of the MEI I questioned the measurements and did apply isolation transformers as well as an isolated TDS 3034 scope use via battery operation.  I still have the test data somewhere in my files if anyone is interested.

Pm
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #326 on: 2017-05-05, 13:38:54 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2017-05-05, 12:58:34
O0

Well,it seems that the old BPC out-performs the new solenoid type i made.

Using Partzmans circuit,i can get constant COP>172-176%

Seems the P/in measurements should be correct,as the voltage and current are in phase,meaning a power factor of 1. RMS value's are now used to calculate P/in,and P/out is the voltage across the resistors-ohms law.

So,it would seem that at least 3 here are seeing constant COP> result's--but dose anyone know why yet?,or where the red herring is hiding?

It has been great research at the very least--who'd of ever thought that current can actually travel in both directions,at the same time,through a coil  :o

Seem to remember some one once saying that,and most of us laughed at him.
Maybe time !for me anyway! to go and eat some humble pie.


Brad

Brad,

I agree with your test results showing in general that the pancake type of coil out performs the solenoid design in the MEI application.  I have found this to be true when using multiple ribbon cable windings in both vertical and solenoid configurations.

Pm 
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #327 on: 2017-05-05, 13:54:28 »
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It becomes easier to understand and accept current flow into or out of a given coil simultaneously if consideration is given to the transmission line nature of these special circuits.  With induction being created by displacement currents, it is possible under the right configurations to view this phenomenon both in simulation and on the bench.  In my experience the nexus appears to be in the center of the winding.  It is most enlightening in a simulation with the transmission line modeled as lumped L/C segments to view this phenomenon by measuring the currents and voltages up and down the line at any given point in time.

Pm
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #328 on: 2017-05-05, 14:04:26 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2017-05-05, 13:21:29
Not sure if there was any type of message in the !!I know some people who "go both ways" at once!! ,but are you saying the phase inversion we see across R1 and R2 is not the current starting to flow in the opposite direction?

As far as i know,when two current flows are 180* out of phase with each other,then they are flowing in opposite directions--of have i missed something some where?


Brad

It's the "at the same time" part that is the difficulty (with current, not people!). And you have to be very careful about interpreting phase, because it is incredibly easy to get an inverted phase by accident. In my testing I have not seen a case where R1 and R2 are more than a few degrees different in phase. Certainly not anything like an "inversion".
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #329 on: 2017-05-05, 14:08:07 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2017-05-05, 13:54:28
It becomes easier to understand and accept current flow into or out of a given coil simultaneously if consideration is given to the transmission line nature of these special circuits.  With induction being created by displacement currents, it is possible under the right configurations to view this phenomenon both in simulation and on the bench.  In my experience the nexus appears to be in the center of the winding.  It is most enlightening in a simulation with the transmission line modeled as lumped L/C segments to view this phenomenon by measuring the currents and voltages up and down the line at any given point in time.

Pm

So when you connect a bit of test gear to such a place where "current is flowing in both directions simultaneously"... how does the test kit know which direction to measure?
Sorry, but in no model of electrical reality that I can consider does current flow both ways simultaneously.  I also don't understand how such a measurement could even be made properly.

   
img  ion
Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #330 on: 2017-05-05, 14:14:48 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2017-05-05, 13:30:17
Verpies,

Yes I apologize for not recognizing you for that suggestion.  In my early testing of the MEI I questioned the measurements and did apply isolation transformers as well as an isolated TDS 3034 scope use via battery operation.  I still have the test data somewhere in my files if anyone is interested.

Pm

Partzman did indeed discuss the use of the isolation transformer on the phone several weeks ago, and I mentioned that in my post on the subject.

see my disclaimer in post #269

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3445.msg61589#msg61589

Quote
I'm sure partzman (or someone) has probably tried this and I missed it. If of no value, disregard.

Sorry for all the confusion about idea origins and apologies to both partzman and verpies, and for not reading each and every post, as I have been in and out fixing lawn equipment, reading what I can, posting when I can.

I consider you guys and Smudge and a few others my mentors.

I know how it feels to see something you offered being replayed without acknowledgement, happens all the time.

For the record I have had one of these wideband isolation transformers built in a little plastic box with BNC connectors on each end, and I couldn't tell when I built it, it was so long ago, but it comes in handy!

Regards

P.S. Smudge, Verpies: what do you think of the concept of morphogenesis and the 100th monkey effect. I have some ideas, but that should be on another thread.
How does your knowledge of physics explain it.





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img  TinMan
Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #331 on: 2017-05-05, 14:20:47 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-05-05, 14:08:07
So when you connect a bit of test gear to such a place where "current is flowing in both directions simultaneously"... how does the test kit know which direction to measure?
Sorry, but in no model of electrical reality that I can consider does current flow both ways simultaneously.  I also don't understand how such a measurement could even be made properly.

Perhaps a better explanation.

What i should have said was- at the junction of the end of one coil,and the beginning of the second coil(where R2 is on my schematic),it is possible to see an inversion of 180* to that of R1 at the input.

If both phases are reading the voltage drop across R1 and R2,and these values become inverted across 1 of the resistors,but not the other,dose that not mean that the current is now flowing in one direction at a point in time,and in the other direction through the other resistor,at that same point in time?.


Brad


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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #332 on: 2017-05-05, 14:50:33 »
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It's turtles all the way down
TK

Try moving your CSR to the (normally grounded) output leg of the ferrite, and repeat the readings per the attached schematic or Vasik's recent schematic.

If anyone else already suggested this, be it known they did.

Regards


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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #333 on: 2017-05-05, 15:04:40 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2017-05-05, 14:20:47
Perhaps a better explanation.

What i should have said was- at the junction of the end of one coil,and the beginning of the second coil(where R2 is on my schematic),it is possible to see an inversion of 180* to that of R1 at the input.

If both phases are reading the voltage drop across R1 and R2,and these values become inverted across 1 of the resistors,but not the other,dose that not mean that the current is now flowing in one direction at a point in time,and in the other direction through the other resistor,at that same point in time?.


Brad

I have no problem with that. Two different measurement points separated by an active circuit node or reactive components .... fine. Especially when capacitors and inductors are involved.

Where I draw the line is at the claim that current can flow through the _same point_ in both directions simultaneously. How would you even measure that?
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #334 on: 2017-05-05, 15:12:28 »
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Quote from: ION on 2017-05-05, 14:50:33
TK

Try moving your CSR to the (normally grounded) output leg of the ferrite, and repeat the readings per the attached schematic or Vasik's recent schematic.

If anyone else already suggested this, be it known they did.

Regards

Yes, that will be next. I've already shut down for the day though, it has been a very long night setting up for and making that video.

As far as locating the CVR where you have it... that is pretty much a standard alternative solution, it has always been in my program, and if you want to assign credit to someone for it, give it to Steve Weir (may he rest in peace, never to be plagued by Rosemary Ainslie again).    O0 

And of course since the probe is the other way around now, it requires inverting the channel to get the correct phase relationship back. I think... doesn't it?

But aren't we worried about some of the "anomaly" leaking out between the resistors through that ground connection?    :D
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #335 on: 2017-05-05, 15:19:08 »
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I would also like to know what Partzman found when he tried it that way (as I'm sure he must have done.)
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #336 on: 2017-05-05, 15:22:12 »

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Well....

I'm going to give YOU some credit....

Thanks for your seemingly non stop effort with this avenue of research.   O0


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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #337 on: 2017-05-05, 15:22:55 »
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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-05-05, 15:04:40
I have no problem with that. Two different measurement points separated by an active circuit node or reactive components .... fine. Especially when capacitors and inductors are involved.

Where I draw the line is at the claim that current can flow through the _same point_ in both directions simultaneously. How would you even measure that?

TK,

I can see that I wasn't clear with my explanation as my point is the same as Brad's.  That is, a coil with two ends marked A and B, current can flow into A while at the same time flow into B.  Flowing into the same point in two directions at the same time, no way!

Pm
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #338 on: 2017-05-05, 15:34:56 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-05-05, 15:04:40
I have no problem with that. Two different measurement points separated by an active circuit node or reactive components .... fine. Especially when capacitors and inductors are involved.

Where I draw the line is at the claim that current can flow through the _same point_ in both directions simultaneously. How would you even measure that?

As i said,i should have worded it better,and specified !at certain points!,not same point.

But we can listen to two different songs,at the same time,using just the one speaker  :D
So we know we can send two(or more) different signals down the same wire at the same time.
There are cases where the water in a river and the ocean can flow in one direction near the surface,and in the other direction at the bottom.

Anyway,loved the video TK,but where is that red herring?
This one seems hard to find.
The fact that you were also driving a load at the same time as recording a COP> kind of strengthens the result's of an !apparent! OU.

I would suspect that once that video gets out,the gold rush will be on.
Wait until the !secrets to OU! book is released--wont be long now until the army steels the show  C.C


Brad


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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #339 on: 2017-05-05, 15:47:04 »
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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-05-05, 15:19:08
I would also like to know what Partzman found when he tried it that way (as I'm sure he must have done.)

TK,

Excellent video.  No, I have not experimented along this avenue and IMO it opens a completely new direction for this research.  I'll be talking to Chet and will get back to you.

Are we having fun yet peering into the looking glass :o?

Pm
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #340 on: 2017-05-05, 15:55:49 »

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What can we do,or how would we go about bumping up the power into the watts range.

Is there an amplifier we can use with our SGs,that could achieve this ?.


Brad


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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #341 on: 2017-05-05, 16:23:51 »
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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-05-05, 11:32:35
I've spent all night making a detailed video demonstrating the setup and the phenomenon and another phenomenon we haven't yet discussed here. The video is about 15 minutes long. It will take some time (hours) to render and upload.

I intend to post the link here privately at first (via PM to the experimenters and other interested members) , unless Partzman gives permission to post it publicly. I'm sure it will cause a storm of controversy.

By the way, that reposting of the Transmission Line video to Hackaday has caused an incredible inflation of the view count over the past couple of days. It went from about 500 views yesterday morning, which is about what I usually get for these things, to nearly 4,500 views by yesterday evening. It seem to have topped out for now at about 4800 views. And not even one single "thumbs down" ! That is extremely unusual, my trolls must be asleep.

Front title slide and schematic for the upcoming video:

TK,

Kudos to you for all the long hours you have spent on this plus your demonstration of an external coil with load and the effect it has on the inducing MEI source coil.  I do appreciate your consideration of keeping the video private out of respect for my MEI efforts over the years.  For those who may not like or agree with this and the attendant "behind the scenes" discussions regarding such a matter, place yourself in the position of holding potential intellectual property that could be game changing.  Would you in all honesty be willing to "give it away"?

Here is the link to TK's video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzbc-N-e9c&feature=youtu.be

I agree with you TK, this will create controversy but will open doors for more research.

Pm
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #342 on: 2017-05-05, 16:30:28 »

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Quote from: TinMan on 2017-05-05, 15:55:49
What can we do,or how would we go about bumping up the power into the watts range.

Is there an amplifier we can use with our SGs,that could achieve this ?.


Brad


Hi Brad.

The coil L1 is open ended, I assume that it's capacitively connected to the other side.

I'm a novice here but do we know what the actual capacitance is? How would a variable air gap trimmer in the pF range look?

Isn't this entering the RF category at 1 MHz frequency?

Cheers Graham.


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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #343 on: 2017-05-05, 16:35:35 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2017-05-05, 15:55:49
What can we do,or how would we go about bumping up the power into the watts range.

Is there an amplifier we can use with our SGs,that could achieve this ?.
Brad

The power amplification (if it is real and being measured correctly) is inherent in the device. All you need to do is loop it correctly and a tiny COP improvement over COP=1 (enough to cover losses in looping components) will yield enormous and dangerous results via regeneration which in this case is continuous power multiplication until the device melts down and stops or otherwise self destructs.

The problem then becomes controlling the reaction, "the fire that feeds itself"

I will post some simple limiter circuits to eliminate the "dangerous" part.

I agree though, this device should be able to scale up "open loop".

Regards

P.S. read up on SM's stuff, he covers all this. And BTW, I believe someone? said that in a transmission line a current pulse can travel in both directions e.g. the forward pulse passes through the reflected pulse of an open or shorted line. There are simulators on line demonstrating something like this.
« Last Edit: 2017-05-05, 17:45:03 by ION »


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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #344 on: 2017-05-05, 16:53:47 »
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In an attempt to find a coil that would be easy to build if one wished to try replicating the MEI effect, I found what is described in the following attachments.

If one has ribbon cable or an equivalent on hand this is easy to make.  In essence, the "coil" is simply a length of 3-wire cable folded just one time back on itself and taped together every 6" or so.  It is then suspended like an antenna some distance above the floor or ground.  The connections are a little different that the current 2-wire versions being tested so the schematic below must be carefully followed to ensure correct results.  The middle wire is the primary and the secondaries are series connected.  The load resistor could vary depending on what you have on hand but again must be non-inductive.

The first scope pix gives the waveform data.  The output voltage is 1.497v rms for a total Pout = 1.497^2/51 = 44mw.  The Math channel shows the instantaneous product of CH1 x CH2 = 23.66mw.  These measurements give a COP = 1.86.

The second pix shows a snapshot of CH1 measurements and we see the input voltage to be 5.274v rms.  So, the power input using CH1 x CH2 x cos(theta) is 5.274 x .07487 x cos(-87.17) = 19.5mw.  As stated previously this measurement is lower than the Math result because here we ignore the harmonic content of the sine wave from the generator in assuming it is pure which it is not.  The instantaneous measurement over time taken by the scope's Math channel does account for any harmonics so the result will be higher if harmonics are present.

Pm

 
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #345 on: 2017-05-05, 17:09:24 »
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OK, by popular demand. FG is now back to the Interstate F43, cranked right up. This is the High Input Power, Transformer Coupled, New CVR location, LED loaded, all-in-one test.
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #346 on: 2017-05-05, 17:15:26 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2017-05-05, 16:23:51
TK,

Kudos to you for all the long hours you have spent on this plus your demonstration of an external coil with load and the effect it has on the inducing MEI source coil.  I do appreciate your consideration of keeping the video private out of respect for my MEI efforts over the years.  For those who may not like or agree with this and the attendant "behind the scenes" discussions regarding such a matter, place yourself in the position of holding potential intellectual property that could be game changing.  Would you in all honesty be willing to "give it away"?

Here is the link to TK's video-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNzbc-N-e9c&feature=youtu.be

I agree with you TK, this will create controversy but will open doors for more research.

Pm

Well, now anyone who finds this forum can see this link, right?

So is it OK with you if I list it publicly on my channel, so my subscribers and my trolls will see it? Or would you rather I didn't... it's up to you.    ;)
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #347 on: 2017-05-05, 17:20:06 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2017-05-05, 15:55:49
What can we do,or how would we go about bumping up the power into the watts range.

Is there an amplifier we can use with our SGs,that could achieve this ?.


Brad

Thank you for your efforts in this research  O0!  Yes, there are at least three ways (apart from having an expensive RF power amplifier) to achieve this. 

One is to use a low side mosfet gate driver driven by a square wave from your generator.  The mosfet driver is then connected to an inductor that will resonate with the input capacitance of the MEI primary at a chosen frequency.  Usually this frequency would be the same that gave the optimum COP with your signal generator input, but you will find that the MEI device will give COP's>1 at lower frequencies as well when driven in this manner.  I recommend this method for now.

The second method is to build a modified class E amplifier which supplies a half sine resonant waveform to the MEI.  More complicated and finicky to tune.

The third option is to build a parallel resonant inverter type design which is as complicated if not more that the class E amp.

I've attached a schematic of the mosfet driver version below.  I prefer to use the Ixys drivers (IXDD609PI) as they have fast rise and fall times and are tough but there are others that will work as well.

Note the coupling cap C1.  This should be a low ESR cap and should be included but not necessary.  If not included, you will have a positive DC offset in the input resonant voltage to the MEI device which may affect the measurement accuracy.  Also the mosfet driver can self heat quickly if the frequencies and power output levels are high so check their temperature often.  If one is at a pout of 30 watts or so, it only takes seconds to destroy a good driver!

Pm

   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #348 on: 2017-05-05, 17:22:54 »
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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-05-05, 17:15:26
Well, now anyone who finds this forum can see this link, right?

So is it OK with you if I list it publicly on my channel, so my subscribers and my trolls will see it? Or would you rather I didn't... it's up to you.    ;)

Yes, and it's OK with me to make it public on your channel.

Pm
   
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Re: Investigating "anomalies" in Bifilar coils « Reply #349 on: 2017-05-05, 17:30:57 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2017-05-05, 17:22:54
Yes, and it's OK with me to make it public on your channel.

Pm

OK, done. Let the storms begin....    :D
   
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