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img  PhysicsProf
Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « on: 2017-04-04, 04:09:16 »
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 Gentlemen -

    I'm studying a phenomenon called "water arc explosions" where anomalous heat production has been claimed for a long time, yet there appears to be  little ongoing / careful-quantitative research at this time.

  I'm interested in learning more - and invite your participation.  I'll be glad to share what I learn.

1.  Past history is summarized in a 2013 paper by a high-school student (Animas HS, in Durango, Colorado):

Quote
Section III: Summary of Past Research
Water arc explosions were first described in 1907 by John Trowbridge of Harvard University, though the phenomenon was not studied in detail until it caught the interest of Peter and Neal Graneau in the mid-1980s (Graneau and Graneau, 1985). By discharging a high-voltage capacitor through around 100 mL of water, the Graneau team was able to expel the water from a dielectric cup. At the time, the Graneaus conjectured that the arc discharge generated high- pressure steam within the water which expanded rapidly and resulted in the observed explosions. Measurements in Graneau and Graneau (1985) and Hathaway and Graneau (1996) indicated that water arc explosions were unusually strong.
--http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Electrolysis_Water_Arc_and_Dielectric_Breakdown/Leavitt%20-%20Do%20water%20arc%20explosions%20release%20internal%20water%20energy%20-%202013.pdf

   Can anyone help find the 1907 paper by Trowbridge -- or the 1985 papers by Graneau and Graneau?

2.  Note that these experiments involve electrical currents in ordinary H2O - and pre-date the "cold fusion in heavy water" claims by Pons and Fleishchmann, for whom H2O was the CONTROL experiment.   Thus, this H2O-arc approach should NOT be confused or conflated with claims by Pons and Fleischmann.

3.  Others are doing experiments in recent years with arc electrolysis in water and point to anomalous heat also, including Woopy a few years ago. (Typical experiments use W cathodes at high-temps in the water.)  I would be intrigued to learn of any CAREFUL measurements of input and output energy (or power) in recent experiments.  Woopy made a valiant attempt, but seems to have abandoned this line of research for some reason.  (Correct?)

4.   I did some experiments along these lines a few years ago - never felt comfortable calling this "cold fusion" or "LENR" - and now it is clear that the history goes WAY back before 1989 when "cold fusion" was announced. 

5.  I'd like to get a fresh start on these experiments, going back to the original papers of 1907 and 1985 for starters - then examining what variants are out there, and which looks most promising  -- including, which approach is most amenable to careful Eout/Ein measurements.

Any comments would be appreciated - is anyone else interested?
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #1 on: 2017-04-04, 04:19:41 »
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  From the student's paper:

Graneau, P., & Graneau, N. (1985). Electrodynamic explosions in liquids. Applied Physics Letters, 46(5), 468.

Graneau, P., Graneau, N., Hathaway, G., & Hull, R. (2000). Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy. Journal of Plasma Physics, 63, 115-128.

It would be great to acquire these papers.
I'm also very interested in water-arc experiments using tungsten electrodes (I've started experiments along those lines) - where the W cathode gets VERY hot in the water+electrolyte.
   
img  muDped
Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #2 on: 2017-04-04, 04:49:24 »

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I'm wondering whether this discovery is what led to the
development of the Electro-Hydraulic Shock Wave Generator
which is the heart of the Lithotripter?


Interesting article with thought provoking links:

The Mysteries of Fog
« Last Edit: 2017-04-04, 05:38:55 by muDped »


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img  Chet K
Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #3 on: 2017-04-04, 08:02:18 »
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Greneau's work has some problems ,the claims were investigated quite extensively and found lacking.
I will see if I can find that Data and reference it here.

I must add ,I think investigating water is a good path.
respectfully
Chet k
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #4 on: 2017-04-04, 09:21:29 »
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There is a lot of misinformation and outright lying about the work of Peter Graneau and his son Neal Graneau on the internet.

For example, the 2000 paper in J. Plasma Physics was _retracted_ by George Hathaway, in whose laboratory by far most of the Graneau experimentation was performed.

Quoting Hathaway:
Quote
I published a rebuttal of the Graneau excess-energy claims a letter to
> the editor of Infinite Energy Magazine V12 #71 2007 (pg 4). In it, I claim
> that the conclusions which I published together with the Graneaus in Jnl.
> of Plasma Physics were not logically able to be derived from the
> experiments we performed together. In other words, while there may be some
> gain mechanism in water subject to electric arc discharges, it has not been
> proven by experiment.

This retraction is difficult to find, whereas the mythos surrounding Graneau is everywhere.
https://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg77959.html

The morals of this story: Do not proceed to engineering before the basic scientific issues have been sorted out. Do not engage in circular argumentation. Do not let your own assumptions blind you to data from good experimentation. Do not cherry-pick data in an attempt to confirm your assumptions. Do not perform confirmatory "demonstrations" in lieu of real experiments that have the ability to assign causality, with proper controls.

And furthermore: Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-04, 18:26:15 by TinselKoala »
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #5 on: 2017-04-04, 09:38:36 »
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.
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc and HHO) « Reply #6 on: 2017-04-04, 16:13:31 »
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Thank you, muDped, Chet and TK for comments on Graneau.

Again, my primary interest here is on:
1 - the HISTORY of H2O electrolysis and xs heat claims;
and
2 - in finding the best experimental approaches involving H2O electrolysis.

Carrying on:  1 --The history includes work by Trowbridge in 1907 as noted before; also Frungel in 1948 and 1965 papers; and Gilchrist and Crossland in 1967.  About the same time as Graneau's publications, we also find a publication by Azevedo of MIT - 1986.

I should add that Davey in Australia also did work in light water electrolysis in the 1940's and thereafter ("Davey bells") - claiming xs heat production, but evidently without careful measurements.

2 -  There are many experiments now claiming xs heat in H2O experiments:  Woopy (Laurent, although he appears to have abandoned this line of research), Mike - I like his work; Brad's work is also promising; Ron and Slider (Mark) and perhaps Luc are doing work in this arena also.  I'm aware of considerable effort in Japan involving H2O and H2-gas-loading (as I've reported elsewhere).
   
The question now is - which line of H2O-based anomalous heat research is most promising? -- in terms of:
1 - amount of anomalous heat production
and
2 - careful Eout/Ein measurements
and
3 - simplicity of design and ease of replication.

And then -
4 - who will be the first to produce a REPLICABLE and PUBLISHABLE experiment showing xs heat production using H2O or H2?  And will they give credit to earlier H2O/heat research, as explained in point 1 above? (or does this matter? I think it does.  I've noticed a tendency, perhaps for political reasons, to give credit where it is NOT due, while withholding credit from early pioneering researchers.)
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #7 on: 2017-04-04, 18:10:53 »

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Hi Steve and all

Still a bit busy with the industrial SMD, but getting near the end, scaling up always creates a few problems in whatever it may be.

I like your interest in excess heat, though it was not really my goal. Creating fog!!!! hmmm well I used to use fog as a base for breaking down the water, that was how I came across it by accident one day back in the 80's.

Now to get things right:- UK English or USA English ;D

Fog or Smog in England is water vapour with particulates in the water, always.
Mist in England "maybe" just water vapour, unless you live by the sea, in which case it contains salt, as in sea mist.

You see there can be a marked difference in what you maybe describing. I could go on and on but would fill pages, I think I can explain why some people get excess heat and others not. If you want to talk on skype about this let me know, I can talk a lot quicker than typing :)

My time is GMT+1, most days I am available, but let me know beforehand O0

Regards

Mike 8)



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img  TinselKoala
Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #8 on: 2017-04-04, 18:30:24 »
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May be of interest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aGIcIgtrLk

 :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KGvwn_T8Ww

(warning: flickering lights, don't watch if you have a seizure disorder or are sensitive to flashing lights)
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #9 on: 2017-04-05, 00:26:44 »
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You see, I expected that the arc would pass through the water droplets and perhaps "explode" them Graneau-style but without requiring the arc chamber. But to my surprise, the water drops triggered the arc all right but actually went _around_ the drops on their surfaces. This can be clearly seen in the first video above (the slideshow) in the photos through the red filter. In order to get the photos I had to stop the camera lens all the way down and use multiple layers of the red gel to reduce the light even more. There are several good shots there where you can clearly (more or less) see the arc channel going around the drops rather than through them. There was only minimal disruption of the water drop and only a little splashing. The yellowing of the water in the reservoir is due to formation of oxides of nitrogen and nitric acid.
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #10 on: 2017-04-05, 03:30:33 »

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One must wonder whether using a water solution of
a salt to make the water conductive would have made
a difference?

That your experiment produced enough NO and NO2
to discolor the water is very interesting.  You may have
discovered a more efficient way to produce Nitric Acid electrically
than the usual air discharge method with the discharge
products bubbled through water.

If I ever get my lab back I'll have to give it a try. 8)


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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #11 on: 2017-04-05, 11:26:36 »
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These are very cool experiments indeed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aGIcIgtrLk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KGvwn_T8Ww

thanks for posting them
 
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #12 on: 2017-04-05, 17:09:15 »

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Yes they are cool experiments, what else do you expect from the laboratory of the TinselKoala!

The way the electrical energy hugs the boundary plane of the water droplet is very interesting. We often forget that there are two fluids in this experiment, not just the liquid water. The water droplet is dropping through air between the electrodes due to the greater density of the liquid in an inert gas medium under the influence of the Earth's gravitational field.

Years ago I suggested a kind of opposite experiment with an hho bubble ascending through a liquid water medium between two electrodes, this grew out of observations of hhop gen 1 and 2 behaviour. Later on I theoretically proposed fuel air bubbles being ignited in an entrained water flow through a de Laval nozzle. I never performed the experiments to prove this theory as I was busy with hhop gen 3 and 4, the true focus of my work. It will be interesting to see if hho bubbles can be combusted this way and if my crude estimations of the dielectrical breakdown energy across the bubble boundary plane were accurate.


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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #13 on: 2017-04-05, 18:50:03 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-04-05, 00:26:44
You see, I expected that the arc would pass through the water droplets and perhaps "explode" them Graneau-style but without requiring the arc chamber. But to my surprise, the water drops triggered the arc all right but actually went _around_ the drops on their surfaces. This can be clearly seen in the first video above (the slideshow) in the photos through the red filter. In order to get the photos I had to stop the camera lens all the way down and use multiple layers of the red gel to reduce the light even more. There are several good shots there where you can clearly (more or less) see the arc channel going around the drops rather than through them. There was only minimal disruption of the water drop and only a little splashing. The yellowing of the water in the reservoir is due to formation of oxides of nitrogen and nitric acid.

Very interesting and well done videos TK. The droplets are quite big in relation to a fog, and I expect the outer "shell" of the droplet is more conductive than the direct path through the water.

To explode the water droplet, I came to the conclusion that the water has to have a multi nano capacitive/ diode formation, like lots of capacitors in series and parallel. With this formation the "capacitors" break down, the dielectric being water, and the power has to be at a resonably high frequency, at least in the khz.

To make the thing really work well you use dual frequencies, ie VHF and UHF. This all goes back to my younger days as a radio HAM and working satellites in space around the world, I also worked the space shuttle from time to time, those were the days.

There is a lot more to all this as you can imagine, but I'm afraid it is no longer for open explanation.

This is me in those days, now 66yrs old and retired

Regards

Mike 8)


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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #14 on: 2017-04-05, 19:13:10 »

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Dear All.

Great videos !!  O0

I wonder how the " Fog " from, the now ubiquitous " Micro foggers " would react ?

Cheers Graham.


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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #15 on: 2017-04-05, 20:14:50 »
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Hmmm.... good question. I wonder if it would allow sparking at all or simply short out the electrodes and prevent the cap bank from charging. Might make an even more efficient nitric acid generator though!
Of course one could use a triggered air gap in series with the sparking electrodes so that voltage is only applied to the sparking electrodes when the TAG is triggered externally. Interesting idea. At present I no longer have the physical space to be able to perform such experiments. I'm jam-packed with junk up to my ears. Barely room for a dog to lie down at my feet.
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #16 on: 2017-04-06, 00:16:04 »

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Quote from: Grumage on 2017-04-05, 19:13:10
I wonder how the " Fog " from, the now ubiquitous " Micro foggers " would react ?
Isn't Randal Mills now using fog and electric current through two molten streams of silver, to produce his Brilliant Light ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBheBH9eio

Note, that at 4:30s the electric current is turned off and only fog + silver remains.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-06, 00:42:20 by verpies »
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #17 on: 2017-04-08, 08:54:39 »
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Verpies
this is like a science fiction movie ,self sustaining after the power goes off ?
SunCell®, the world’s new energy source that releases massive power by conversion of hydrogen to dark matter

has this company gone thru name changes ?

absolutely Jaw dropping video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUBheBH9eio

The electricity producing SunCell® uses a catalyst to cause hydrogen atoms of water molecules to transition to the lower-energy Hydrino® states by allowing their electrons to fall to smaller radii around the nucleus. This results in a release of energy that is intermediate between chemical and nuclear energies and a nonpolluting product. The energy release of the hydrogen separated from H2O, that can be acquired even from the humidity in the air, is over one hundred times that of an equivalent amount of high-octane gasoline. The highest known power density with direct electricity conversion facilitates essentially all power applications untethered to fuels or grid infrastructure. The electrical generation cost is anticipated to be less than 10% that of any known power source.

thanks for posting it

i
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #18 on: 2017-04-08, 12:12:59 »
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  The SunCell video is intriguing - but very few words/commentary. H2O/HHO.

 At the 11:00 mark, the bright glow continues with "Ignition Off" - but for how long?  And is there any measure of TOTAL Eout and Ein?   Any write-up/commentary?
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #19 on: 2017-04-08, 12:40:27 »

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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #20 on: 2017-04-09, 00:59:40 »

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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2017-04-08, 12:12:59
  The SunCell video is intriguing - but very few words/commentary. H2O/HHO.

 At the 11:00 mark, the bright glow continues with "Ignition Off" - but for how long?  And is there any measure of TOTAL Eout and Ein?   Any write-up/commentary?

In this video(below),he states at 57 sec,that peak power is 5 000 000 watts,and 1 300 000 watts average power.
He also go's on to state that the P/in is equivalent to two hair dryers  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjDSFzlXq4Q


One of the tests i carried out with my !star in a jar! experimenting,was to place a solar panel next to the jar,and see how much power i could draw from the light-through the solar panel.
Turms out that i could not get any energy from the solar panel at all,using the light produced from the water arc-even though it lit up the whole workshop very well. ???
I could see orange,red, and white light,but the solar panel picked up nothing.


Brad


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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #21 on: 2017-04-09, 01:53:19 »
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  Wow!  this is really interesting..
Brad, I especially resonated to your remark:


"
In this video(below),he states at 57 sec,that peak power is 5 000 000 watts,and 1 300 000 watts average power.
He also go's on to state that the P/in is equivalent to two hair dryers  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjDSFzlXq4Q


One of the tests i carried out with my !star in a jar! experimenting,"

This is encouraging!!  "One of the tests i carried out with my !star in a jar! experimenting,"

SO - are you replicating the Mills device, perhaps on a smaller scale?  Verpies? 
Smaller scale and readily-replicable seems like a wise plan...
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #22 on: 2017-04-09, 02:06:23 »

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Quote from: TinMan on 2017-04-09, 00:59:40
In this video(below),he states at 57 sec,that peak power is 5 000 000 watts,and 1 300 000 watts average power.
He also go's on to state that the P/in is equivalent to two hair dryers  :o
He throws around a lot of numbers.  Most of them come from the Stefan-Boltzmann law, which states that a perfect blackbody surface of 1 square meter area, emits this many Watts:

1m2 at 100ºC emits 1.1kW of light        (the temperature of boiling water)
1m2 at 2227ºC emits 2.2MW of light     (the temperature of the filament in a common incandescent light bulb)
1m2 at 3000ºC emits 6.5MW of light     (the temperature of the filament in a halogen incandescent light bulb)
1m2 at 3422ºC emits 10.6MW of light   (the melting temperature of Tungsten)
1m2 at 3642ºC emits 13.3MW of light   (the sublimation temperature of Graphite)
1m2 at 3880ºC emits 16.9MW of light   (the melting temperature of Tantalum Carbide)
1m2 at 4727ºC emits 35.4MW of light   (5000ºK)
1m2 at 5327ºC emits 55.8MW of light   (The surface of the Sun at 5600ºK)
1m2 at 5930ºC emits 84.0MW of light   (the boiling temperature of Tungsten)


Quote from: TinMan on 2017-04-09, 00:59:40
One of the tests i carried out with my !star in a jar! experimenting,was to place a solar panel next to the jar,and see how much power i could draw from the light-through the solar panel.
Turms out that i could not get any energy from the solar panel at all,using the light produced from the water arc-even though it lit up the whole workshop very well. ???
That is because solar cells cannot convert that frequency of light to electricity.

More than 99% of the light coming out of Mill's SunCell is in the invisible hard UV range (10nm - 250nm) that the photovoltaic cells are insensitive to. (IOW such light messes up PV cells).
That's why Mill's surrounds his Hydrino reaction with a graphite sphere that is supposed to absorb the UV light and heat up to 3200ºC, which makes it glow with blackbody radiation on the outside of that sphere. 

Blackbody radiation at 3200ºC consists of much lower light frequencies, to which photovoltaic cells are sensitive to.  These PV cells must be the expensive 3-layer kind to achieve ~40% light-to-electricity conversion efficiency.
This UV --> GlowingBlackbody --> PV --> Electricity conversion, is the Achille's heal of his device, especially that graphite burns up in oxygen at these temperatures, unless it is surrounded by Argon, etc...

« Last Edit: 2017-04-09, 14:06:12 by verpies »
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #23 on: 2017-04-09, 02:38:32 »
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would be nice to read your musings on this [a possible experiment]

??
   
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Re: Water Arc Explosions (aka arc electrolysis and H2O-arc) « Reply #24 on: 2017-04-09, 03:26:50 »

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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2017-04-09, 01:53:19
  Wow!  this is really interesting..
Brad, I especially resonated to your remark:


"
In this video(below),he states at 57 sec,that peak power is 5 000 000 watts,and 1 300 000 watts average power.
He also go's on to state that the P/in is equivalent to two hair dryers  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjDSFzlXq4Q


One of the tests i carried out with my !star in a jar! experimenting,"

This is encouraging!!  "One of the tests i carried out with my !star in a jar! experimenting,"

SO - are you replicating the Mills device, perhaps on a smaller scale?  Verpies? 
Smaller scale and readily-replicable seems like a wise plan...


No,this was in reference to my two electrodes in a jar of water test's i carried out a few years ago.
I believe it was all the hype back then,and it was called !cold fusion!-although i believe that to be incorrect.

The video below shows the test.

I had a 100 ohm resistor across the solar cell,and got very little out of it,regardless of the light being in the visible range,and very bright.

With 2.1 ltr's of water,we raised the temperature from 33*C to 75*C,using 100 watt hour's of power-so a rise of 42*C.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJQ1RAznwgw



Brad


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