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OverUnity Research > Motors > Bedini > Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion
2024-12-20, 11:19:50
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Author Topic: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion  (Read 72979 times)
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img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #275 on: 2010-11-20, 16:31:06 »
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Hey Guys,

I stand corrected, I just missed that!  I remember building a crystal radio, I wonder if they still sell the kits.  They supplied a commercial diode with those kits of course, and not a "cat's whisker."

Amazing, I will have to keep it in mind if I am ever stranded on a rocky island and need to build an S.O.S. transmitter!  lol

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #276 on: 2010-11-20, 17:08:17 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-11-20, 16:31:06
Hey Guys,

I stand corrected, I just missed that!  I remember building a crystal radio, I wonder if they still sell the kits.  They supplied a commercial diode with those kits of course, and not a "cat's whisker."

Amazing, I will have to keep it in mind if I am ever stranded on a rocky island and need to build an S.O.S. transmitter!  lol

MileHigh

My dad and I played with a "cat whisker"  radio using a Galena crystal in 1953 or so. I was fascinated. I tried blue blades, pencil lead and other rocks, but finally found the secret a few years later. It was all about "Q" and the Litz wire coil with ferrite slug and a 1N34A germanium diode was the cat's meow. Then the CK722 transistor was introduced to the hobbyist at just 99 cents.....I had to have one!!


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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #277 on: 2010-11-20, 17:46:45 »
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ION
MY Home Compu has no audio[getting fixed],I'll do it when I go away next week on Holiday at my inlaws [it will help keep me sane]  !;o}

Chet
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #278 on: 2010-11-20, 17:57:24 »
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Quote from: ramset on 2010-11-20, 17:46:45
ION
MY Home Compu has no audio[getting fixed],I'll do it when I go away next week on Holiday at my inlaws [it will help keep me sane]  !;o}

Chet

Chet: This would be a very valuable though arduous task. I appreciate your willingness to take this on. It will yield some gold nuggets not obvious from the distraction of just watching. Thank You


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #279 on: 2010-11-21, 14:25:55 »
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Here is a recent posting about the new Bedini demo motor given out at the Renaissance November workshop convention by Peter Lindemann:

Quote
Think it Through.....
Gentlemen, (and Ladies)

The motor kits delivered at the conference, and the predecessor designs, are all capable of indefinite operation. All of the necessary components are there. But, as with all things in this world, everything must be optimized.

First, the 9 volt batteries supplied with the kit are for demonstration purposes. They must be replaced with some small, 12 volt rechargeable batteries. 4 or 7 amp-hour gel-cells are preferred.

Second, the generator coil is designed to produce about 24 VAC at about 5,000 rpm. This final voltage (whatever it is for your model's top speed) determines how many LEDs you can light ABOVE the battery level.

Back popping the front battery is the most difficult method to get to work, although a workable method for off-setting the input was clearly explained in the Electric Motor Secrets thread and has been there for years.

Charging a cap on the back end with both the recovery from the motor coils AND the excess from the generator coil (after lighting a few LEDs) is the simplest and most reliable method.

Free running bearings, choosing the right number of LEDs based on the operational "top speed" of your system, running the system at "room temperature" so the batteries charge efficiently, etc, etc, etc,.....including everything John has been harping on for years..... are all necessary aspects of an operational success story!

Look at what John just posted in the "Electricity Watson Machine" thread. Its your own way of thinking that is stopping you.

Quit trying to build a "self-running machine" and start closely observing and working with the machine that is in front of you. Go through each system in the machine and find out it's range of activity. Chart them and take notes. Let the machine "teach you the truth" about itself and how well it embodies what "you believe" it embodies. When you find differences between "what you thought it was doing" and "what it is really doing", make adjustments.

When you are done with this process, it WILL be running itself.

We have told you EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!

Beyond this, you must learn it for yourself.

Peter

I can't disagree with the spirit of what Peter is saying, except for the line "it WILL be running itself."  If you do your investigations properly, then you will conclude that it will NOT be running itself.  Make no mistake, this is a device that burns off source battery energy as heat, and charges a second charging battery.  The device burns off MORE source battery energy as heat than it puts energy into the charging battery for a NET LOSS in energy every time you run it.  Some people may try to tell you that "extra energy from the vacuum" goes into the charging battery during the charging battery because you are making use of "radiant energy."  This is NOT happening and you can easily verify this for yourself if you really want to.

So, if you are going to analyze this motor and really figure out what it's doing, you can determine for yourself if Peter's claims (and others) about this device are true or not.  In the next posting I will give you some suggestions for how to go about doing this.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #280 on: 2010-11-21, 15:31:33 »
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I am going to discuss analyzing this motor using high-level concepts only.  All of the low-level descriptions of how to go about making the real measurements, etc, are in the Bedini threads on this web site.

For starters, the most basic measurements you can make on the motor are the average power consumption from the source battery and the average power output to the charging battery.  You typically will want to vary the base resistances for the transistors (this motor has three power coils) and see how the performance changes in terms of power consumed and power transferred into the charging battery.

So, I am throwing down the challenge to people with this new motor, or Bedini motor experimenters in general:  How many watts of power is your motor consuming from the source battery?  How many watts of power is the motor pumping into the charging battery?  I have seen so many Bedini motor clips and read so many threads and I almost never read about anyone making a serious attempt to make these measurements.

This is the most fundamental data about your new motor, average power in and average power out.

The real way to make these power consumption and power output measurements for irregular pulsing voltage and current waveforms is in the Bedini measurement thread on this web site.

When you add the generator coil and want to measure the power output from it, the first thing to do is get rid of the LEDs because it's almost impossible to measure the power consumption of LEDs with ordinary bench equipment.  They are non-linear devices so you can forget it.

For the generator coil, you want to add a simple resistor as the load, and you need a "True RMS" multimeter to measure the RMS voltage across the load resistor to calculate the coil output power.  In addition, you can measure the resistance of your coil.  Then you have enough data to determine how much average power is burned off in the generator coil itself because you know the RMS current through the load resistor, and the same current flows through the generator coil.

You also want to try varying the load resistance for the generator coil because that will change how much power the generator coil outputs at a given RPM.

That's enough food for thought to start the process for doing a serious evaluation of how your new Bedini motor actually works.

Think of each time you do a run test of your Bedini motor, there is a "data vector" of measurements and derived data that describe the operation of your motor.

Here is a sample "data vector" for a run of your Bedini motor:

1. Source battery voltage  (Why not check with your scope to be sure it is truly constant?)
2. Source battery size and type and ampere-hour rating
3. Charging battery voltage
4. Charging battery size and type and ampere-hour rating
5. RPMs
6. Average source battery power consumption
7. Average output power to charging battery
8. Generator coil load resistance
9. Generator coil winding resistance
10. Generator coil output power
11. Power dissipated as heat in generator coil itself
12. Transistor type
13. Base resistance(s) setting
14. Transistor ON time
15. Transistor pulse frequency

You note that I am not listing the run time and the source and charging battery start and end voltages.  The data vector is only concerned with the real-time running operation of the motor itself.  I may make some comments on batteries and battery testing in a later posting or you can read the Bedini threads on this web site.

The most shocking thing for some of you is that you are going to see that average output power to the charging battery will be much less than the average source battery power consumption.  The output power to the charging battery might only be about 30% as much as the motor's power consumption.

Once you generate the first data vector for your Bedini motor, you can start experimenting by varying one parameter and seeing how that affects all of the other measurements.  You can follow your own lines of investigation, never forgetting that you want to make all of the measurements for each new data vector.

Another "shocking" thing that you are going to see is that if you start outputting significant amounts of power with the generator coil that the motor will slow down a lot, and this will affect the motor's power consumption and also affect the output power to the charging battery.  You will quickly come to the realization that the old line about Bedini motors, "the mechanical is free" is NOT TRUE, and you have to pay a price to drive the separate generator coil with mechanical power from the rotor.

So that's it, I am throwing down a challenge to all of the Renaissance workshop attendees that were given their sample Bedini motors.  The challenge is to make test runs with your Bedini motor and generate all 15 pieces of data in the data vector for each run.

This is a good starting point for really understanding how your motor works.  Since many of you have the same motors, you can easily compare notes.  There is no doubt that doing this involves some REAL WORK and discipline to make all the measurements and record all of the data.  There is a tangible reward at the end though, and you have a more or less standardized set of data that you can exchange with other experimenters that have exactly the same motor.

If anybody wants to cross-post this in any of the other forums, please feel free to do so.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #281 on: 2010-11-21, 21:18:12 »
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I am going to respond to the "litmus test fail by milehigh" thread started by Wilby Inebriated on OU:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10043.0

The proposition is that because I did not know that transistors could be made from minerals in the ground (i.e.; rocks) that I have failed the litmus test for general knowledge about energy, physics, and electronics, and therefore all of my technical comments should be discounted.  In addition, a person with a single posting under their belt suggested that I should apologize to John Bedini for making my comments.

I was corrected by some posters around here and then freely admitted that I was ignorant about this matter.

I was ignorant about a small piece of historical trivia about transistors.  Not knowing a small piece of trivia about transistors that dates back to the 1950s is not a valid litmus test with respect to my general technical knowledge.

On the other hand, supposing that I stated that "transistors are voltage amplifiers" as fact.  This is a statement about transistor technology that is wrong because transistors are devices that amplify current, not voltage.  We are not talking historical trivia anymore.  That would indeed be a litmus test failure because it would demonstrate that I didn't understand how transistors work.

So, using the phraseology of inimitable Wilby Inebriated, it's a logical fallacy for Wilby to suggest that I failed the litmus test because I did not know a relatively obscure piece of historical trivia about transistors.

As far as apologizing to John Bedini goes, in reviewing my posting you can summarize what I said as "It makes no sense at all to think that you can grind up rocks to make transistors."  It's actually a rebuttal to a story told by Tom Bearden that I thought was a tall tale.  My comments we never addressed to John Bedini directly and I think that it's fair to say that even die-hard believers in free energy would question some of the comments of Tom Bearden.

However, I will repeat that I admitted my ignorance and in that sense I retract my statements directed at Tom Bearden about this issue, and by extension I retract my statements that were ultimately about John Bedini.

As a final thought for Bedini fans to contemplate, it's about central issue that the whole Bedini motor concept is based on.  Bedini alleges that coils discharge "radiant energy" and there is something "special" about this "form of energy."  The simple fact is that Bedini is not giving you the straight goods about what happens when an inductor discharges.  If you are really serious about your Bedini motors you should take it upon yourselves to research how an inductor works in general, and specifically how a discharging inductor works.  You can read in the Bedini threads on this web site, or open up some electronics, electrical engineering, or physics books, do research online, and so on.  Gather information from at least five "conventional" sources and work on understanding and mastering what the hell is really going on when an inductor stores energy supplied to it by an external power source and then discharges that stored energy.  Assuming that you have mastered that, then go back and read through and watch material from John Bedini himself and you just might have a much different perspective on the man and what he says.  I am not trying to tell anybody what to think, rather, I am suggesting that you do the research yourselves.

MileHigh
   
img  BEP
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #282 on: 2010-11-21, 22:41:56 »
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MH,

My opinion is you have no reason to apologize.

I have the same problem at home. My pet doesn't feel enough attention so he drops a ball at my feet and waits for me to toss it. If I ignore him he starts barking until I either throw the ball or walk away.

Sometimes I just don't feel like playing fetch.
   
img  ion
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #283 on: 2010-11-22, 00:52:16 »
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MH

I agree, there is no reason to apologize, least of all to JB who is bilking people with his hocus pocus.

As for your attacker, I have yet to see him post anything technical. He seems to be like a lawyer in training, going around on forums nit picking at people that he could never ever hold a technical conversation with.

I tend to ignore him. Sometimes, when an eagle lands in a chicken coop, there is one lead chicken who will try to rile the rest of the birds that like him, cannot fly, and have them peck the eagle's wings off.

You Sir, are okay in my book. Your technical posts are right on.

The other guy should seek to get his medication changed. He is either a paid disruptor, or someone who just enjoys creating chaos. Either way his agenda is nefarious.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Room3327
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #284 on: 2010-11-22, 00:59:04 »

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Milehigh,
No one knows everything there is to know, we all make mistakes, and we are all missing pieces of the whole picture.  Those who understand what you are saying don't need an appology,  those who do, obviously, need to study more! But you could try a little more humility with everyone, obviously there are some well educated people at this forum starting right at the top with Poynt, so no need to be talking with and appologising to the peanut gallery.


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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #285 on: 2010-11-22, 01:39:02 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Good stuff MH ;) As you can see, it wasn't a big deal with most of us here that you apologize, but it shows character anyway, and that should be recognized.

@Room3327,

Thanks for your confidence, it's appreciated.

We've got a pretty darn good team of individuals here, and I'm just glad to be a part of it.  :D

.99


---------------------------
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img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #286 on: 2010-11-22, 04:32:13 »
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Thanks for your support guys and I am going to switch back into 10-coiler mode again because the topic has been heating up after the Renaissance November workshop convention.

There are two important postings:

The first is from Mark:
http://www.energeticforum.com/117771-post5.html

Quote
Heys Bits

I need some clarification. Someone posted that Rick said your 10 coiler, cap pulser, battery swapper set up could only light up 60 watts of light bulbs while self running (maintaining the voltages in all the batteries). You posted it saves you about $40.00 a month on your electric bill which computes out to around 400 watts output 24/7.

Can you please confirm with your (10 coiler, cap pulser, battery swapper) set up how many watts of continous 24/7 output do you have while maintaining the voltages in all your batteries? Is it 60 watts, 400 watts or somwhere in between?

THanks, Mark

The second is from Seselaa:

http://www.energeticforum.com/117776-post6.html

Quote
This is what I ave learned, Please quote me on this.

From what I have learned is that t is $4200 for the 10 coil monopole kit, plus $5300 for 20 additional coil kit. So $9500 total for US buyers, more for other countries. This is roughly $1000 off from a month ago.
Truth In Heart CREDIT CARD ORDERING CENTER

I have been reading a lot on the monopole, Bits setup is highly modified with extra components not yet available for sale.

So if you can perform these modifications and add other components like battery swappers and others, than you may get 416 watts out.

For off grid use.
416 watts/hr
= 24 volt x 17 amp.

I will respond in the next post.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #287 on: 2010-11-22, 05:06:33 »
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Bits (Jeff) hasn't responded to the questions yet and it's important to state that Bits (Jeff) is only the designer of the intelligent battery swapper, he does not sell the 10-coiler kits or represent the company that sells the 10-coiler kits.  However, he is clearly affiliated with them and is working on projects with them.

The kits are sold here by "Truth in Heart" a company that I believe is owned by Rick Friedich and John Bedini and others.

http://potentialtec.com/kits.html

Note that nowhere on the Truth in Heart web site does it state that the 10-coiler and related kits produce excess energy or can be configured to become self-runners.

However, by the same token many claims have been made by people directly or indirectly affiliated with these products and the associated automated battery swapper after the Renaissance November workshop convention.  The claims are that they are over unity devices that can be configured as self-runners so that you can connect and inverter to them and generate continuous mains power at a certain wattage level.

For example, Bits said this:

http://www.energeticforum.com/117738-post335.html

Quote
Absoulty this is big! I think folks are starting to get it, albeit slowly. Redrechie, thank you. Now for my viewpoint, we have for many years tried to illustrate there are better methods to produce energy and clean up our environment. Some of these methods still go not being noticed because they are not "Packaged" for the normal consumer. I was asked by some attendee's at the conference the very question of, "When can I buy and distribute this to the world". I had to answer with "This conference is to Teach this technology and if we give in to the status quo, then we are just repeating the very mess that we are in today". Let me explain, if we allow 1 or 2 corporations to secure the right s to these inventions and technology's, then we have just allowed ourselves to be held hostage AGAIN. But, if we teach the world to be able to create and use the free energy, at will and adapted for our own use, we finally can break free. Redrechie, you are right, just imagine your car with a 10 coiler in it as you pass the fueling stations AND the power pedestals for charging. We have shown all this is possible with just a few items at the conference. John's wheel producing over 1.5 million joules of energy, Rick driving a electric lawn mower plus his electric car, The 10 coiler running on its own power and Peter sharing (teaching) the secrets of the Lockridge device and Patrick's latest vid. All I can say is WOW and look out 2011.

Jeff

Earlier than that Bits stated this:

http://www.energeticforum.com/116789-post192.html

Quote
> quote=electricity;116784
> Anyway, I am only interested in practical usable devices, so do we now have enough disclosure and knowledge to build one yet?. Or does it > still take a decade to light each light bulb ?

Thanks for your great effort, I myself do not see a need for that circuit.

The only thing I can say is you missed out and now you are still asking the same old questions, "are we there yet"? Electricity, you missed out. Beginning with Rick entering in the conference on a lawn mower which not only propelled itself while charging it's own battery's, me demostrating the 10 coiler powering itself while running a load (The whole conference), Rick driving his electric Porsche to the conference (10 miles @ night with full lights. I followed him), Gordy riding his electric motorcycle, Peter telling us ALL about the lockridge device (including secrets never told before), Jeane Manning giving a revelation speech, and finally John, showing his machine that ran for the entire second day on "Perpetual" (yes I said it) motion until he generated power out of it, and you have the nerve to say that you do not have a need for that circuit? The only thing that I can say is that you are on the wrong forum and I wish the best for you. Please help us by taking your "Business as usual attitude" elsewhere. I myself have worked a lifetime to see this day and can say "We did it"!!!!!

Bit's

Okay I will bring this all together in the next posting.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-22, 05:41:49 by MileHigh »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #288 on: 2010-11-22, 05:40:22 »
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Okay, we have a potentially disastrous situation here for an over-eager consumer that is looking for a free energy system to tie into their home power grid:

Someone may be utterly convinced that they can purchase a 10-coiler kit and Jeff's battery swapper and the cap pulser and an inverter and two banks worth of batteries and have an over-unity system that provides a continuous source of mains power for their home at a certain continuous wattage level.

However, the product descriptions on the Truth in Heart web site make no claims that this is actually doable.

Therefore there is the potential for someone to spend close to $10,000 (TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS) and end up with a system that is only a "super-duper battery charger" and NOTHING MORE THAN THAT with NO LEGAL RECOURSE FOR GETTING A REFUND.

Jeff, it's up to you and your associates, Rick Friedrich and John Bedini to produce hard data and concrete evidence that the 10-coiler and supplementary hardware produce free energy like you and others are unofficially claiming on the Energetic Forum web site in the aftermath of the Renaissance November workshop convention.

Right now Truth in Heart can sell someone thousands of dollars worth of equipment with no legal obligation to refund their money when the integrated system does not work.

Jeff, this statement by you, "me demostrating the 10 coiler powering itself while running a load (The whole conference)" is most likely pure anecdotal evidence with no measurements or numbers to back it up unless you can prove otherwise.  In all likelihood, even though you used small batteries with the 10-coiler for the weekend workshop demo, the batteries contained enough energy to keep the 10-coiler running all weekend.

It's time for you and the Renaissance/Truth in Heart groups to back up your product with official claims in the form of an official spec sheet for the full integrated system with full specifications and full test data supporting the claim.

In my personal opinion, it's likely that nothing like this has ever been done and you haven't done your own rigorous internal testing to confirm the proof of concept with hard data that you have in your possession right now.  And the reality for you Jeff, is that with your battery swapper up and running with a fully configured system and fresh batteries, you will find that to your dismay that it doesn't work.  At 60 watts continuous power draw from the inverter, it may take one full month, or it may even take two full months if you have to big battery banks, but eventually the system will be fully drained of all battery energy.

The only way you could possibly convince me that what you are promoting is true is to have certified testing done where the total energy drained off the system is at least 10 times the total energy available in both battery banks when you start the testing.

Bits/Jeff, in the aftermath of the "buzz" from the Renaissance November workshop convention, the time for anecdotal evidence is over and it's time to back up your claims with real data.

As far as the timing goes, I am not saying that you have to have the proper data to back up the claim today or tomorrow, but there has to be a project that has already been started or will be started soon to verify the claims that are being made.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-22, 06:09:36 by MileHigh »
   
img  ion
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #289 on: 2010-11-22, 06:18:06 »
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img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #290 on: 2010-11-22, 06:33:10 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-11-21, 15:31:33
The most shocking thing for some of you is that you are going to see that average output power to the charging battery will be much less than the average source battery power consumption.  The output power to the charging battery might only be about 30% as much as the motor's power consumption.
MileHigh

Hello MileHigh,

I've seen you in action in many posts and display a great level of knowledge.  I find your posts very interesting and on the exact spot about the issue.

I'd like to ask regarding your above statements saying "might only be about 30% of the motor's power consumption".  What is the theoratical ideal % in your opinion? 


   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #291 on: 2010-11-22, 19:59:39 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2010-11-22, 06:33:10
Hello MileHigh,

I'd like to ask regarding your above statements saying "might only be about 30% of the motor's power consumption".  What is the theoratical ideal % in your opinion? 

Thank you for the compliment.

It's hard to give you a theoretical ideal percentage but I will try to answer that in the context of what might realizable for an experimenter to build.

You would need a drive coil with low resistance, so use wire that's as thick as possible with fewer turns.  I would completely get rid of the conventional pick-up coil driving the transistor's base input resistor because it dissipates too much heat and the slew rate it generates is too slow.  One possible option might be to wire a pick-up coil EMF signal to an ultra-low-power operational amplifier configured as a comparator, and have the output of the operational amplifier drive a 555 CMOS timing circuit that drives the base input of a FET or MOSFET.  You need to control the start timing for the pulse to center it on the repulsion sweet spot between the drive coil and the rotor magnet, and that's where the comparator comes into play.  You need to control the ON pulse and keep it as short as possible to minimize the i-squared-R losses in the drive coil. That's just my first guess on a very-low-power timing circuit.  There is a very good chance that there is a better way to do it.

A very narrow pulse will have relatively little energy in it so the rotor will not spin too fast.  This is fine because you want the rotor to spin slowly to minimize the air friction losses.  The rotor itself should be made as a solid disk with the magnets embedded in the edge of the disk to also reduce air friction.

If you do all that, you will have a slowly turning Bedini rotor running on very narrow pulses that are timed to be centered on the magnetic repulsion sweet spot between the energizing coil and the rotor magnets.  The amount of battery power consumed to support the timing circuit will be minimized and the signal to the FET or MOSFET transistor will have very fast OFF-ON and ON-OFF transitions.  It won't charge batteries particularly quickly but it will hopefully do a much better job at converting the source battery power into inductive current pulses that charge the charging battery.

I will take a guess that by working in this direction and adjusting and tweaking you could get the power transfer efficiency into the 60%-70% range.  So that would be about twice as efficient as your typical Bedini motor.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #292 on: 2010-11-22, 21:13:36 »
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Okay I am going back to the 10-coiler + inverter issue because it's important.

This posting is again addressed to Jeff/Bits.

Jeff said:

Quote
Ok Ozy, I know you were not at the conference and you want hard and fast calculations and figures. Here is the same message that I told folks asking the same questions as you are seeking. First you cannot take these systems and put a hard figure to what they will output. It is true I illustrated about .5 amps going back to the grid in my vid. Did you happen to see what size batts I had in that illustration? They were very small but it showed just a hint of what the 10 coiler could do. That said, in my setup at the conference and the questions I answered, if you take 2 battery banks, consisting of 4 ea 12V batterys in series then you now have 2 banks capable of producing 48V @ "your total amapacity" figured at a C5 or C20 rate. You'll note that I said "YOUR" meaning everyones setup will be different. Continuing on with this illustration, 1 bank is under load (Grid Tie) the other is being charged (from the 10 coiler). How fast can the 10 coiler recover the charge for the batts being charged? Who knows. Depends on the health of your batts, temp, etc., etc. The optimal setup is that your Grid Tie will be sized to your battery banks at the proper C? rating, and the 10 coiler recovers the drained bank in that same period. I'll call this the "Charge" and "Discharge" window. Properly configured, it has been my testing experience, the 10 coiler will recover a healthy battery bank in 2 - 5 hours. I am going to caveat this statement by saying that I am not allowing a discharge cycle of the batts to fall below 12.2 volts / batt. This is the fully discharged cycle resting voltage. So the batt swapper is brought in to control the load / charge process to insure that you have properly charged batteries and also to provide a continous load setup. With this said, "YOUR" battery bank / Grid Tie setup is the numbers you need to use in your Calc. to determine "How much can the 10 coiler output". Make sense?

Jeff

Jeff:

"First you cannot take these systems and put a hard figure to what they will output."

You have to make the transition from anecdotal comments to real hard nuimbers.  Your swapper is part of a system that purports to generate free energy.  You absolutely must put a figure on what it can output.  Just choose a typical battery bank configuration that someone would use and then quote how much continuous power the system can generate with the 10-coiler with the battery swapping going on in the background.  You can forget about the grid-tie feature and simply drive a 60-watt or 100-watt light bulb or whatever you think is appropriate.  You have to back this up with hard evidence.  For example, you could drain 10 times the total available energy in both battery banks while driving a 100-watt light bulb continuously and that would be convincing.

"They were very small but it showed just a hint of what the 10 coiler could do."

People don't want to be teased anymore especially when the system is quite expensive.  They need hard data.  Precisely what can the 10-coiler do?

"the other is being charged (from the 10 coiler)"
"and the 10 coiler recovers the drained bank in that same period."

One battery bank is driving a load, presumably the inverter.  The 10-coiler is charging the other bank.  So what is powering the 10-coiler?  A third bank?  It's important to state that the 10-coiler never charges a bank of batteries without drawing from another bank of batteries.

"So the batt swapper is brought in to control the load / charge process"

What's powering the battery swapper itself?  The microcontroller itself doesn't consume that much power but you have to keep one or more relays on continuously and that consumes some power.  How much power does the battery swapper consume and where is it coming from?

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #293 on: 2010-11-22, 21:37:42 »
Group: Guest
One more comment for Jeff:

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Mark, I just tried to illustrate in my last comment to Ozy that their are many varibles. The first mistake that everyone is making is trying to wrap a math problem around this. Without giving you the answer, can you verify your cost per KWH is exactly the same as mine? Of course not! Then how can you equate a $40.00 a month saving from my bill to a 300KWH delta. Quit trying to apply convential means to this non-convential energy. Build a setup just like I illustrated at the conference, size the battery banks to fit your needs and you my friend will have savings, WHICH WILL BE DIFFERENT THAN MINE.

And just as a side note, my grid tie, the one I illustrated to you in the video put's out anywhere from .5 to 1.2 amps. It senses the "Availble Voltage" and ramps up or down as necessary. Once again, your assumption was a fixed .5amps.

Jeff

Jeff, I am going to make the assumption that you noticed a roughly $40 decrease in your electricity bill for at least a few months when you started working with the 10-coiler and the grid-tie setup.  Again, this is anecdotal evidence and should be treated as such.  As far as I am concerned this is just a number that you are throwing out there.  It could be because you used less hot water and did less washing and drying or ate out more, etc.

Again, I am suggesting a control test with a 100-watt light bulb running 24/7 with the 10-coiler, battery swapper, cap pulser, and grid-tie inverter connected to the light bulb only, and not to your home grid.  How many mega-Joules of energy do you start with?  Let's assume that between the two battery banks you have 20 mega-Joules of energy.  That's enough energy to power a 100-watt light bulb load for 2.3 days.

Therefore there is a very easy proof-of-concept test that you can do.  Assuming 20 mega-Joules of energy between your two battery banks, please run a test where you power a 100-watt incandescent light bulb continuously for 25 days.

25 days is nothing in "free energy forum time" as you well know.  A month goes by in the blink of an eye.  In your current setup, how much total battery energy are you working with?  You can relate that back to a 100-watt incandescent light bulb load and run the test like I am suggesting above.  I have already forewarned you that both battery banks are going to die.  Here is your chance for you and Rick Friedrich and John Bedini to prove me wrong.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #294 on: 2010-11-23, 06:43:35 »
Group: Guest
Jeff you said this:

Quote
Ozy, I am trying to give you Bloody answers, but you ain't listening. You are not able to even solve the simplest equation. Let me tell you again, with no lecture, if you are able to solve the equation, which is the grid tie will drain the first battery bank in 5 hrs, and the second bank in 5hrs, the 10 coiler will charge up the first bank in 2 - 5 hrs. This leaves a cushion of 4 hrs in a 24 hr period that the ten coiler will take to charge up both banks. You will be able to sustain a 24/7 load to your grid tie. What it produces on the back end, is not relevant in that whatever it produces is a total gain. Remember the 10 coiler is producing it's own drive, and charging itself. If your looking for name plated output, I cannot help you.

Can you elaborate on your scheduling?  Because I am also confused.

I assume that the 10-coiler is drawing energy from the second bank at the same time the second bank drives the inverter, is that correct?

Where is the 10-coiler getting the energy to charge up both banks during the 4 hr cushion time?

"You will be able to sustain a 24/7 load to your grid tie."

At what output power level and for how long?

"Remember the 10 coiler is producing it's own drive, and charging itself."

Can you elaborate on this?

Jeff, Aussieaussieaussie on the Energetic Forum was asking you legitimate questions.  In previous postings I have also asked you some important questions.  We hope to see your replies.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #295 on: 2010-11-24, 06:31:01 »
Group: Guest
This is a response to Aussieaussieaussie on the Energetic Forum in the discussion "Renaissance November Workshop Convention:"

Quote
Don't listen to Milehigh with lightbulbs and such - this just screams scam because how do I know how brightly they were lit?

Please tell me what is your objection to putting a watt meter on the inverter?
Give me an honest answer why you are against taking this measurement and I will leave it be. MIB, NDA whatever.
But if you don't have a good reason then do the bloody test.

I realize you are not prepared to do it MileHighs way, that would take a lot of time and effort. But how can you disagree with a $20 watt meter on the inverter?

"Don't listen to Milehigh with lightbulbs and such - this just screams scam because how do I know how brightly they were lit?"

Aussie, I don't think that you are getting it.  I am assuming that the grid-tie inverter can output a clean 120 VAC sine wave to the 100-watt light bulb.  Jeff would just have to verify that the AC voltage was correct.  Then it's a no-brainer, you can assume that the light bulb load will be 100 watts +/- 10%.

"I realize you are not prepared to do it MileHighs way, that would take a lot of time and effort."

What you are saying doesn't make any sense.  Once Jeff starts the 25-day test, then he has nothing to do.  Just check once a day that the light bulb is lit.  This would take almost no effort at all.

Let me outline a possible scenario for you:

We are going to assume that the grid-tie inverter is smart, and won't complain about low battery voltages for a while.  But within a few days both battery banks will start to get too low in voltage.  Then the smart grid-tie inverter is going to start beeping and flashing lights complaining about the situation.  Meanwhile Jeff's swapper algorithm is gong to helplessly swap banks back and forth at the fastest rate his software algorithm will permit.  It will also start to beep and flash lights because both battery banks will be too low in voltage.

Within a few days the smart grid-tie inverter will beep incessantly complaining of under-voltage and the smart battery swapper will also be complaining.  The 10-coiler will start to slow down.  This will last a day or two and then the smart-inverter will refuse to power the light bulb because all of the available battery voltages have dropped below a critical threshold.

So, if the system truly works like Jeff claims it does, it should sail through the 25-day non-stop test and just keep on swapping battery banks back and forth and sucking in free energy from the vacuum.

However, the problem is that for all of Jeff's hard work writing code and designing PCBs, it looks like this "reality check" has never been done.  It's analogous to the optics problem that the Hubble Space Telescope had when it was first launched in 1990.

So I predict that if the test is ever done, withing two days you will start hearing under-voltage beeps and the smart grid-tie inverter and smart battery swapper will try to compensate, but it will be a losing battle.  Within two more days the grid-tie inverter will refuse to power the light bulb because it will know that no matter what battery bank you give it, there will simply not be enough juice.

You will end up with both banks of batteries drained as far as the smart hardware will let them get drained and no further.  The setup will die within four or five days max, and will not run the full 25 days.  The reason for this is that the 10-coiler does not "extract extra energy from the vacuum."  The 10-coiler is just like any other Bedini motor, and that means it is an energy loss mechanism and there is no "vacuum energy" to be found.

The proof in the pudding would be found by running the 25-day test with a 100-watt incandescent bulb.

MileHigh
   
img  aetherevarising
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #296 on: 2010-11-24, 06:44:44 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-11-24, 06:31:01

...

You will end up with both banks of batteries drained as far as the smart hardware will let them get drained and no further.  The setup will die within four or five days max, and will not run the full 25 days.  The reason for this is that the 10-coiler does not "extract extra energy from the vacuum."  The 10-coiler is just like any other Bedini motor, and that means it is an energy loss mechanism and there is no "vacuum energy" to be found.

The proof in the pudding would be found by running the 25-day test with a 100-watt incandescent bulb.

MileHigh

MileHigh - I was absolutely with your argument all the way down to this penultimate paragraph - with special reference to '...that means it is an energy loss mechanism and there is no "vacuum energy" to be found."  Until then I could buy into your impartiality.  This is absolutely NOT the conclusion.  It only means that there's not enough energy returned to the supply to keep it running - and that observation then based on the assumption that it WILL fail.  Surely to be entirely objective you'd do better to wait and see?  And since when does this disprove vacuum energy?  Vacuum energy or Dark Energy is NOT something that needs to be proved to exist or not.  It's already been proved.  Exhaustively.  You just need to read up about it.

Regards,
Rosemary
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #297 on: 2010-11-24, 07:07:37 »
Group: Guest
Rosemary:

Let's say we separate the scientific concept of vacuum energy from what a Bedini motor does.  In other words, I am not casting a wide net when I say "vacuum energy" in my posting.  The flavour of "vacuum energy" is the one that says somehow when you use a Bedini motor to drain one battery and charge another battery, at the end of the charging process somehow you have gained energy when you look at the remaining energy in both batteries.

I am not even going to touch your comment about "energy returned to the supply."  That's something that you believe about your specific experiment and it has no relation to a smart grid-tie inverter taking 12-volt DC power from a battery and turning that into 120 VAC mains power.

So the "reality check" test has been suggested to Jeff (Bit's-and-Bytes) to see if his setup can supply a continuous source of 100 watts of 120 VAC power to an incandescent light bulb for 25 days while the 10-coiler runs and batteries are swapped back and forth in the background.

This assumes that you are working with 20 mega-Joules of total battery energy when you start the test and the test is designed to extract about 200 mega-Joules of energy from the system.  If you have more or less than 20 mega-Joules of battery energy when you start the test then you have to tweak the test parameters accordingly.

Ultimately I really don't care how you describe the alleged free energy mechanism because it doesn't matter.  This is a simple test to see if the system really works or not like Jeff claims it does.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-24, 07:45:32 by MileHigh »
   
img  aussieaussieaussie
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #298 on: 2010-11-24, 08:46:22 »
Group: Guest
Hi MileHigh,

I think we both want something similar here, so please don't take this as an introduction to a debate.
In a perfect world, yes, a proper independent test would be great - but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Your test duration is 25days which is fine, but I don't think Bits is prepared or willing to do this so...

I am proposing a very simple test, really a clarification on a previous test on a you tube video.
Watt meter on inverter instead of simple amp meter, and a load test to find out what this device is capable of at this stage of testing.
Simple.

Yes, there is still a large element of 'faith' that has to be given to Bits for this to be conclusive. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt - you may not.

But I guess my biggest concern is you seem to have a conclusion with no data - which in my mind is very very silly....

I am but a simple scientist who likes to see the data before I replicate and form my own conclusions.

We will see if my attempts to obtain data is in vain soon I guess.

Ozy
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #299 on: 2010-11-24, 09:37:38 »
Group: Guest
Hi Ozy,

Welcome to the site!

There is an issue related to your test that you need to think about.  So you put a watt meter on the setup.  Just to be sure of what you mean, do you mean the following:  The inverter 120 VAC output connects to the watt meter (like a Kill-a-Watt meter) and that connects to some sort of a load?  For the sake of argument, let's use a 100-watt light bulb again.

What then?  What do you mean by a load test?  The point being that no matter how you look at it, you have to extract more total energy from the batteries than the batteries store in the first place.  To put it another way, if you ran a test for five hours, it would mean nothing because the batteries can easily power a 100-watt load for five hours.

So can you clarify your proposed test?

I just want to make another brief point.  All of your questions to Jeff and other people on EF are valid.  Jeff has a military background and he knows that every single piece of electronic equipment he worked with had a full set of specifications provided by the manufacturer or the system integrator without exception.  By the same token Ash trying to imply that you have to "buy in" to the technology to learn to use it and then perhaps you can join the "question club" is preposterous.  $10,000 USD is real money and you have every right to ask questions about the performance and specifications of some sort of integrated 10-coiler plus inverter setup.  Any person with common sense would agree with this.  In fact, like I stated earlier in the thread, they should release an official .pdf document with the specifications and any order placed with them should include the published specifications as the performance criteria that they have to meet.  If they can't meet the published performance criteria then you should have a full right of refund.  Do not order anything from them without all of this on paper.

MileHigh
   
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