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OverUnity Research > Motors > Bedini > Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion
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Author Topic: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion  (Read 72949 times)
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img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #175 on: 2010-09-11, 22:15:23 »
Group: Guest
Fausto:

You said:

Quote
(15:15:53) Plengo: Hello guys, I have a quick question
(15:16:25) Plengo: when I connect my SSG to my battery it costs me a certain amount of voltage and amparage
(15:16:53) Plengo: when I connect a resistor in series with the charging battery that cost increases, that being, amparege goes higher
(15:17:02) Plengo: is not that suposed to be the opposite?

It's hard to give you a real answer without all of the information.  When you change one variable associated with your Bedini motor it takes perhaps one minute for the motor to stabilize again.  That means changing one variable results in all of the other variables changing until a new stability point is found.  You are not telling us if the RPMs changed, what resistor value you added, etc.

Certainly there is an explanation for this, it simply requires that you investigate this in more detail.

I can ask you two questions: 1)  What value of resistance did you add?  2)  Let's forget what you observed after you added the resistance.  What at least can you say should happen when you add the resistance?

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #176 on: 2010-09-15, 00:29:28 »
Group: Guest
I am going to respond to some issues raised on a thread on the Energetic Forum that start at this posting by John K:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6159-r-charge-bedini-solar-power-charger-4.html#post110318

Quote
Originally Posted by baroutologos
The big flaw of Bedini circuits is that they claim OU in batteries and you get NONE.
As a desulphator SSG sux also. tried and know.
The alum stuff, is a nightmare. I have converted a Bosch lead acid battery to alum and from 6Ah capacity droped to 0.5Ah. Alum with "radiant charge" does not shows any merit.
Not to mention the battery could not keep charges up. It took way to long actual time hooked on an improvised desulphator to be restored, but not as it were before.

What about Bedini circuits anyway?

baroutologos,

All I can say is that you did not build them right. Every Bedini circuit I have built has shown that the battery's load time is increased after every cycle. The only exception is when I didn't build it right, or it wasn't tuned optimally. Every charger I have bought from Renaissance Charge has done what they claim it will do. They all extend the life of your batteries.

John K.:  For starters we can't forget that you are a reseller of Bedini products in Australia.  Therefore you have a vested interest in keeping the "buzz" about Bedini stuff all positive.  People should be aware that your comments are biased because of your financial interests.  I am noticing a pattern with respect to your postings.  Whenever anybody posts some doubts about the claim then you reply with a "salesy" posting that attempts to "right the ship" and claim that everything associated with Bedini "technology" is true and all is good.  You are the gopher for the Bedini interests that is running defensive tackle.  Again, you have vested financial interests in promoting Bedini products.

To claim that Baroutologos' builds are not good is a hollow argument.  You don't know what his builds are like.  You are falling into the trap that we have all seen before on these forums.  The trap is the claim that "the device wasn't built correctly and that's why it isn't working."  I have read this countless times before and your claim is false.  I am going to assume that Baroutologos did do his builds properly and the Bedini motor does not work as Baroutologos claims.  The Bedini claim is that "magic" happens when an inductor discharges current pulses into a battery and extra energy is created like that such that you get COP > 1 when you run charging battery load testing.  This is not true and I have already shown that your battery COP testing is deeply flawed.  There was a posting about two weeks ago on the Yahoo group where Rick stated that you were going to review your flawed battery testing procedure but I have not seen any updates.  Have a look at my explanation on the Bedini measurements thread to learn the proper way to measure how the charging battery gets charged.

Quote
The trick is building the circuit for what the batteries want as the batteries are part of the circuit. Then you have to make sure it is tuned for what you want it to do.

The above statements are meaningless.  What do the batteries want, John?  As far as the tuning goes, from what I have read you tune the motor for minimal current consumption from the source battery.  This results in weaker current pulses from the discharging drive coil.

Quote
There are many other tricks that show some very interesting things that can't be explained in the normal EE sense with these circuits. When you understand the concepts and principles that John Bedini has already shown us, you can start to experiment with ways that you can combine different circuits to achieve different applications.

I am going to repeat this one more time:  Everything about a Bedini motor is explainable with standard and very basic EE concepts.  Your statement is not true and reality is that you and Rick are the ones that don't understand how a Bedini motor works because you don't understand how an inductor works.

Quote
For example, you might want to use the high voltage, low current, high frequency outputs of the SG circuit to charge a battery directly or to charge up a capacitor. On the other hand you might want the low voltage, high current, low frequency output of a charged capacitor and dump that energy into a battery or a another capacitor once every second. There are many other different possibilities you can use these circuits for.

John, the statements you make above are very revealing about your level of understanding about electronics.  You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

Quote
The point being, that there are different circuits for different applications. Many other people have posted their test results in the public forum for people to see for themselves what the Bedini circuits can do. When so many other people have been successful and you say that it does not work then tell us a bit about your setup and we might be able to help you improve it.

Those test results are most likely all wrong because your test procedure is no good.  I explained to you that if you don't know what the energy level in the charging battery is before you start your COP testing that the resultant data will be junk.  In your testing you look at ampere-hours in vs. ampere-hours out without factoring in the voltage drops or increases as you discharge or charge the battery.  This is a huge mistake.  As I have explained, you have to measure the power that is going into the charging battery, and then convert that into energy.  Then measure the energy that you can extract from the charging battery, and you must know the energy already in the charging battery before you start your COP testing.  Your battery COP testing does none of this, it is junk.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #177 on: 2010-09-15, 01:22:29 »
Group: Guest
I just want to comment on my own postings.  I know that sometimes they are quite tough, and I know that is something that we should all try to keep in check.  On the other hand, it can be refreshing to sometimes just lay it on the line, and state what you think and feel.

Perhaps the following example will at least give my harsh comments some context.

Here is the link to the YouTuber "MachineOfTime1":

http://www.youtube.com/user/MachineOfTime1#p/u

He seems like a really nice guy and he purchased a 10-coiler kit from Rick.  On top of that he has spent thousands of more dollars and invested hundreds of hours in a complex automatic battery swapping and inverter system.  He clearly believes that his is going to be able to provide some of the mains power for his house with the 10-coiler as the "power source."  His latest clip is called "Perpetual Self Runner."

I have looked at all of his clips and have qualified him with respect to his electronics knowledge.  He is clearly a beginner, and his knowledge is basic at best.  He measures his battery voltages and uses that as an indication of their state of charge.  He firmly believes that he is well on the way towards making an over unity system to provide the energy needs for his house.  He might work on this project for a few more years and end up spending tens of thousands of dollars.

The problem is that when he does his testing he is clearly convinced that he is doing something special when that is not the case.  So far every test he has done draws on the energy that is stored in his big lead-acid batteries.  So he does tests where he thinks he is demonstrating over unity when all that he is doing is discharging big batteries that would take days if not weeks before they fully discharge.

Chances are he will go on like this for months and months, convinced that his Bedini motor is recharging his batteries so that he can keep on swapping them for an endless supply of free energy.  Who knows how much more time and money he will invest in this system.

This is clearly wrong, and this is a good guy that is chasing a pipe dream and wasting his time.  If he understood how to do some proper testing and make proper measurements, he might realize the error in his ways and stop his project and save himself thousands and thousands of dollars.  He already has enough hardware in place to do some serious testing and figure out for himself that there is no 'magic' associated with a Bedini motor charging a charge battery with inductive current spikes.

So when John K. plays defensive tackle when anybody expresses their doubts about Bedini "technology" it's wrong.  He is helping perpetuate the myth that you can get COP > 1 when a Bedini motor charges the charging battery.  This hurts people financially and emotionally in the long run so I am trying to set the record straight with this thread.

If you are serious about your Bedini motor and believe that you can get over unity out of it, then I encourage you to read this and other Bedini threads on overuniyresearch.com.  The intention behind this thread is to help Bedini experimenters find out for themselves if a Bedini motor setup has any merit, or if it has no merit at all.

I am telling you that a Bedini motor is nothing more than an energy loss mechanism, and when you use it you get less energy out of your batteries.  The hope is that you will prove this for yourselves, with some assistance from this thread if required.  This thread is about finding the truth about Bedini motors, and sometimes the truth can be harsh.

MileHigh
   
img  ion
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #178 on: 2010-09-15, 02:45:47 »
Group: Elite
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******

Posts: 3537
It's turtles all the way down
Quote
this is a good guy that is chasing a pipe dream and wasting his time.

And good old J. Bhoudini man of a thousand mirrors blowing smoke rings on that pipe.

I really feel sorry for all the good people that are parting with their money for this stuff. Shame on the man.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #179 on: 2010-09-15, 04:06:49 »

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
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Posts: 3948
tExB=qr
Tell him to build an AVEC.

(got hv resistors and pulser is back up, just need more time)
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #180 on: 2010-09-15, 08:17:59 »
Group: Guest
Let's have a peek into the issue of "impedance matching" by sampling some opinions about starting here on the EF:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6159-r-charge-bedini-solar-power-charger-4.html#post110280

Quoting Aaron:

Quote
And you choose to ignore the point of 1:1 - that ratio
is balanced to itself in regards to the input output.
They ARE matched to each other.

Then for WHATEVER coil you have, you can then
use it optimally for batteries that are matched to it.
That much is common sense.

I am assuming the 1:1 turns ratio that Aaron is referring to is for the composite pick-up and drive coil.  The pick-up to output coil turns ratio has absolutely nothing to do with impedance matching for charging the charge battery.  My impression is that when Aaron says "That much is common sense." he is ducking the issue because he doesn't understand it.

With respect to impedance matching, I have explained multiple times on this thread how a discharging inductor, like in a Bedini motor after the transistor switches off, has an effective output impedance of infinity.  I realize that this is a difficult concept for people to understand but I have tried to explain this earlier in this thread on several occasions.  Because the output impedance of the coil is infinity, there is no impedance matching with the charging battery at all.  The drive coil will discharge its energy into any type of charging battery, no matter what its input impedance.  Therefore impedance matching between the drive coil and the charging battery is not an issue, because there is NO impedance matching in this particular case.

If you want to learn more, please read this thread from the beginning!

A sampler of some other opinions:

Quoting SeaMonkey:

Quote
The DC resistance of the coils in many of
Bedini's "devices" is too great. Much power
is lost within the coils themselves.

While they may indeed charge batteries,
the impedance mis-match prevents efficient
transfer of energy. Much power is lost.

SeaMonkey is confusing AC transformer-type impedance matching with how a discharging inductor works, where the output impedance is close to infinity.

Quoting John K.:

Quote
This basic theory and understood easily by most who have researched impedance matching.

It has been well discussed amongst various forums that it is advantageous to match the impedance of the SSG coil to the impedance of the source battery, for most efficient energy transfer. This is where multi-coil SSGs will perform better with a large source battery that has relatively low impedance. Once you calculate the total impedance of the parallel windings of the coil/s and match that (without going under it) to the source battery.

However, I don't think it is well understood, even by those that have built an SSG, that the SSG "sees" the charge battery as a high impedance (or in other words the battery "sees" the SSG as a "lower" impedance). Due to the "impedance mismatch" the battery charges by lowering it's impedance to try and "match" the impedance of the SSG coil.

The SSG is an "impedance matching oscillator" circuit in this sense. Using a bulb in the base resistor circuit also acts as a "servo" to keep the SSG in tune as the charge battery's impedance is lowered.

Hope this makes sense...

Unfortunately none of what John K. is saying makes any sense at all.  I am not going to rebut it point by point but every point that he makes is wrong.  Reading between the lines I will assume that John Koorn, Rick Friedrich, and all of the members of the Yahoo Bedini groups do not understand this issue.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-09-15, 08:57:40 by MileHigh »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #181 on: 2010-09-15, 08:51:07 »
Group: Guest
There is a little bit of action on the EF Bedini 10-coiler thread so I will comment!

http://www.energeticforum.com/110426-post381.html

Quote
UncleFester
Originally Posted by Ecancanvas View Post
Hey Bit's,
Watched your u-tube post of Perpetual Self Runner on it you talk about winding a inner coil in reverse before installing your motor windings. could you discuss why this would be beneficial. I have been working on "ricks self runner", and playing around with the induction windings trying to make it a self runner, Close but not there yet.
Thanks
As I understand it winding in opposite directions cancels the field. In other words the primary coil it would not see any load even though you were pulling power from the second winding that is wound opposite direction. Collapse of the field should be faster though as well in this configuration.

Tad

There is no such thing as "winding a coil in reverse" or "winding a coil in opposite directions."  Nor is there any kind of "winding trick" that you can do to make a load on a coil magically disappear.  Certainly if you have a coil that consists of two windings, a pick-up coil and a power coil, they are coupled to each other and interact with each other just like in a normal transformer.  That's why you see scope shots where the the transistor fires multiple times for a single magnet pass.  The power coil is coupling back to the trigger coil and during the magnet pass time it's like you have a temporary oscillator set up between the trigger coil, the transistor, and the power coil.  Call it a sort of "Joule Thief on the Fly" if you want.

Going back to the issue of "winding a coil in reverse," the real terminology is to talk about the North-South polarity of the coil relative to how you are driving current into and out of  the two wires of the coil.  If you reverse the two connections of the coil then you drive the coil with the opposite North-South polarity.

What this means is that people that think their coil is wound the "wrong way" and then completely unwind their "clockwise" coil and then rewind it in a "counter-clockwise" fashion are wasting their time.  All that they had to do was reverse the connections to the coil to get exactly the same effect.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #182 on: 2010-09-15, 23:32:30 »
Group: Guest
Another update from the 10-coiler Bit's-n-Bytes on his project:

Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark:
Hi Bits

Some how I missed that post on the TS thread. So essentially your just winding an addition wire on the outside of an SG coil in the opposite direction, is that correct? And if so, you state your outside winding is 5 filar, why? Did you use each winding with a bridge to "power" 5 loads or did you series them together or have I misunderstood?

Thanks, Mark
No, the inner coil goes to the FWBR, and the outer coil (5 filar in my case, because I had extra spool) is hooked up normal SG fashion. What happens when the coil is pulsed (normal SG operation) the magnetic lines of flux, rise and fall across the inner coil produce AC voltage. In my case, 35v to 56V. The rotor is driven by the normal SG action. Now if you collect this voltage obtained from the inner coil to a sizable cap, you have nice usable voltage. I can matain about 11v - 12v, 1 amp without any noticable drag on the wheel. Multiply this by 9 (coils) and you have some serious usable energy.

Jeff

So let's take a look at what Jeff is really doing.  He is going to be adding extra energy pick-up coils to each of his main drive coils on his 10-coiler Bedini motor.  When his transistors fire and energize the drive coils, this will also transfer power into the extra energy pick-up coils.  The pick-up coil outputs will pass through some full-wave bridge rectifiers and then charge a large capacitor or capacitors.

So lets look at the energy audit trail for this piece of "added value" that Jeff is adding to his setup.  When the coils energize, some of the source battery energy will be siphoned off by the pick-up coils and go into a capacitor.  That's it, as simple as that.  So all that Jeff is doing is adding an extra load on his source batteries when the transistors switch on and that energy is captured in a large capacitor.  Certainly this is not "free energy," he is paying for this by adding an extra load on his source batteries.

From looking at Jeff's clips, he may then use the charged capacitor(s) to power a "cap pulser" board of his own design.  This board will boost the voltage and rectify it so that he can pulse energy back into a battery.  This will most likely be one of the source batteries that is off-line and not being used at the moment (he has a relay switching setup to round-robin the source batteries).

So Jeff may be using his source battery bank to recharge one of his source batteries that is off-line.  This is nothing more than a grandiose exercise in loosing energy by recirculating it for no reason.

He will loose energy in the following places:

1.  The diodes in the first full-wave bridge rectifier
2.  In the "cap pulser" board (which includes a second full-wave bridge rectifier)
3.  In the off-line source battery because batteries are not 100% efficient when you charge and then discharge them

If Jeff really does what I think he is going to do, I am going to guess that he will loose up to 50% of the energy that he sucks out of his source battery bank and then pumps back into an off-line source battery.  The whole thing will be a grandiose exercise in wasting energy.

A few comments about charging up a capacitor with a pick-up coil going through a full-wave bridge rectifier.  As the capacitor is charging, the coil is pumping this energy into the cap and there is a Lenz drag on the rotor, or in Jeff's case a load on the source battery bank.  However, once the capacitor is charged to its maximum voltage, then current stops flowing and there is no more load on the system.  Some experimenters might not realize this.  The capacitor is a real load, but once it is charged up it effectively disappears from the circuit and there is no load.

Anyway, Jeff is supposed to modify all nine drive coils and add the "energy pick-up coils" to them in an attempt to "add value."  I will be watching to see what happens.  Unfortunately, in all likelihood this setup will simply pour energy down the drain.

MileHigh
   
img  Bits-n-Bytes
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #183 on: 2010-09-16, 15:23:06 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-09-15, 01:22:29
I just want to comment on my own postings.  I know that sometimes they are quite tough, and I know that is something that we should all try to keep in check.  On the other hand, it can be refreshing to sometimes just lay it on the line, and state what you think and feel.

Perhaps the following example will at least give my harsh comments some context.

Here is the link to the YouTuber "MachineOfTime1":

http://www.youtube.com/user/MachineOfTime1#p/u

He seems like a really nice guyI really am. and he purchased a 10-coiler kit from Rick.  On top of that he has spent thousands of more dollars and invested hundreds of hours in a complex automatic battery swapping and inverter system.  He clearly believes that his is going to be able to provide some of the mains power for his house with the 10-coiler as the "power source."  His latest clip is called "Perpetual Self Runner."

I have looked at all of his clips and have qualified him with respect to his electronics knowledge.  He is clearly a beginner Nope, no beginner here, In fact have design many systems that are still in the industry today. Take a look, http://www.ageranger.com/images3/Jeff-W-DOD.jpg (yep that's me back in the early 80's, and his knowledge is basic at best Before you evaluate me, in front of your followers on this forum, maybe you should do some research. I currently hold 3 engineering certifications, received Presidential citations for my contributions to this industry and have over 40 years of electrical knowledge.He measures his battery voltages and uses that as an indication of their state of charge.  He firmly believes that he is well on the way towards making an over unity system to provide the energy needs for his house.  He might work on this project for a few more years and end up spending tens of thousands of dollars.

The problem is that when he does his testing he is clearly convinced that he is doing something special when that is not the case.  So far every test he has done draws on the energy that is stored in his big lead-acid batteries.  So he does tests where he thinks he is demonstrating over unity when all that he is doing is discharging big batteries that would take days if not weeks before they fully discharge.

Chances are he will go on like this for months and months, convinced that his Bedini motor is recharging his batteries so that he can keep on swapping them for an endless supply of free energy.  Who knows how much more time and money he will invest in this system.

This is clearly wrong, and this is a good guy that is chasing a pipe dream and wasting his time.  If he understood how to do some proper testing and make proper measurements, he might realize the error in his ways and stop his project and save himself thousands and thousands of dollars.  He already has enough hardware in place to do some serious testing and figure out for himself that there is no 'magic' associated with a Bedini motor charging a charge battery with inductive current spikes.

So when John K. plays defensive tackle when anybody expresses their doubts about Bedini "technology" it's wrong.  He is helping perpetuate the myth that you can get COP > 1 when a Bedini motor charges the charging battery.  This hurts people financially and emotionally in the long run so I am trying to set the record straight with this thread.

If you are serious about your Bedini motor and believe that you can get over unity out of it, then I encourage you to read this and other Bedini threads on overuniyresearch.com.  The intention behind this thread is to help Bedini experimenters find out for themselves if a Bedini motor setup has any merit, or if it has no merit at all.

I am telling you that a Bedini motor is nothing more than an energy loss mechanism, and when you use it you get less energy out of your batteries.  The hope is that you will prove this for yourselves, with some assistance from this thread if required.  This thread is about finding the truth about Bedini motors, and sometimes the truth can be harsh.

MileHigh

MileHigh, I have received your invites to come to this forum and have chosen not to do so. But when you want to bash me, without even knowing who I am, I need to show you in front of your followers here, that you are NOT right most of the times. You say that I am a beginner, see above. I would like to see your credentials publicly displayed here as I have, so you can truly show your fans who you are. I said that I am nice guy, I am going to stand by that statement and not going to go any further as I would be simply wasting my time.

« Last Edit: 2010-09-16, 15:46:09 by Bits-n-Bytes »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #184 on: 2010-09-16, 16:35:59 »
Group: Guest
Hi Jeff,

Welcome to the thread and I apologize if I offended you.  Now that you are here, it would be great if you took the time to actually read the thread.  There is also a small thread started by Plengo about how to do measurements on Bedini motors that is worth reading.

If you say I am not right most of the times, and if you are not talking about the one specific posting where I tried to qualify you, then tell me where I am wrong and we can try to debate it if you want.  This thread is all about helping Bedini experimenters understand their setups so they can make informed decisions themselves.  A lot of them could use some basic electronics instruction.  You are saying that you would be "wasting your time" and for me that is indicative of closed-mindedness.

All that I can say Jeff is that I looked at your clips, and I did not hear language that indicates that you are experienced with working with electronics on a component level.  From the article you linked to I am wondering if you have worked more on the systems level.  Even the way you used your scope to me made it appear that you were not comfortable using it.  I looked at your clip where you use the inverter to put power back into the grid and it is obvious to me that you were simply drawing power from the big battery bank that you have set up.  In your latest clip you are showing your system for drawing power out of the drive coils with an extra pick-up coil wired into each drive coil.  You state, "If you wind the coils the same way, you'll have "Transformer" action and run the drive batts down to nothing. Don't know if your familar with the term "Buck" "Boost" or not. Wind the coils opposite and you'll negate most transformer action. End result, energy without killing the drive batts."  That statement doesn't make any sense.  Your pick-up coils are going into FWBRs and then going into your capacitor(s).  It's simply impossible for you to wind the coils in the "opposite" direction and negate most of the transformer action.  It doesn't matter which way they are wound.  Plus the truth is that you don't have to "wind them the opposite way," all that you have to do is reverse the connections to the coil.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your intention is to swap batteries back and forth between your source and charging banks so that you can eventually extract "excess" energy and run that "excess" energy into an inverter to power your house with your own self-generated mains power.  You think the 10-coiler is the heart of this system and it can do that for you because you can get a COP > 1 when you charge the charging battery bank with inductive current spikes.  That's a tall order Jeff, and to conclusively prove that you have to factor in the fact that your bank of batteries contains a lot of energy.  That will require some simple proof-of-concept testing.  For example, you could charge your charging batteries, then connect them to some car 12-volt sealed-beam headlights and drain off 25% of the energy in the charging bank.  Then swap banks, charge the "new" bank of charging batteries (formerly the source bank) and drain off 25% of the energy in them again.  Keep on doing that back and forth.  If you system really works then you should be able to do this indefinitely right now, you have all of the equipment in place.  On the other hand, if the system croaks after five or six battery bank swapping cycles, then that will be proof that the Bedini 10-coiler rig is doing nothing of value at all.  The simple fact is that the Bedini 10-coiler is nothing more than an energy loss mechanism.  However, I know that you don't believe me, so I am suggesting to you that you prove it for yourself.  All that you have to do is get a few car headlights and calculate how long your battery bank needs to power them to drain off 25% of the energy in the bank and you are good to go.  I am suggesting to you that you do that proof-of-concept test of the 10-coiler before you invest any more time or energy into your setup.

You asked me about my qualifications.  I will tell you but let me propose a deal.  Read this thread in its entirety and the much smaller Bedini measurement thread first.  Then post that you have read it and give me your comments about what you feel my knowledge level is first.  Then I will give you my qualifications.  I hope that's a fair deal.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-09-16, 17:17:54 by MileHigh »
   
img  Bits-n-Bytes
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #185 on: 2010-09-16, 17:06:37 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-09-16, 16:35:59


You asked me about my qualifications.  I will tell you but let me propose a deal.   I hope that's a fair deal.

MileHigh

No deal! You want to judge me? Show me your qualified (or not).
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #186 on: 2010-09-16, 17:14:56 »
Group: Guest
Jeff:

I have an EE degree and worked as an EE 20 years ago in digital design.  I don't work as an EE any more.  I have thousands of hours of experience on the bench with a scope and a logic analyzer.  I have watched hundreds and hundreds of Bedini motor clips and read many Bedini threads, but I haven't built one.

I don't like to say that because if you say it it creates bad vibes and there is a culture of bashing education and EEs on the free energy forums.  So I prefer to not say it and just let my words speak for themselves.  This is the first time that I have ever posted it publicly, and I am only doing it because you asked me to.

So, now that's over with, will you read the threads?  How about that car sealed-beam headlight test that I suggested?

MileHigh

P.S.:  Jeff, I just wanted to also say thank you for your great work in the DOD.  Thanks for being part of a team that defends our freedom and way of life.  Some people take that for granted but I don't.
« Last Edit: 2010-09-16, 17:33:49 by MileHigh »
   
img  Bits-n-Bytes
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #187 on: 2010-09-16, 17:55:05 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-09-16, 17:14:56
Jeff:

I have an EE degree and worked as an EE 20 years ago in digital design.  I don't work as an EE any more. You may have noticed, that I design my own boards, program my own chips, and know quite a bit about the power industry. Hmm, EE in Digital, Power, and Programming, not to stand on my soapbox, but I bring a wealth of skills to the equation. I have thousands of hours of experience on the bench with a scope and a logic analyzer.  I have watched I have DONE many clipshundreds and hundreds of Bedini motor clips and read many Bedini threads, but I haven't built one. Thanks for your honesty, may I suggest you do?

I don't like to say that because if you say it it creates bad vibes and there is a culture of bashing education and EEs on the free energy forums.  So I prefer to not say it and just let my words speak for themselves.  This is the first time that I have ever posted it publicly, and I am only doing it because you asked me to.Thank you

So, now that's over with, will you read the threads?  How about that car sealed-beam headlight test that I suggested?

MileHigh

I have read all of your threads. Can't say that I agree with you on most items. I will analyze your suggested test and if it has merit, perform it but I will not become your test bench. I suggest that you build these devices and test, instead of now being an "Arm Chair EE". I have said my piece now. Your welcome to continue to follow my work and give constructive feedback, but unless you can create the exact same test setup that I have, along with the experience / knowledge / ingenuity, and  credentials, then I respectfully ask you keep your judgments about me out of the equation.
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #188 on: 2010-09-16, 18:32:10 »
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Hi Jeff,

If you read my threads and don't agree on most items, I would be very interested in knowing what you don't agree with.  Certainly the suggested test has merit, do a charge cycle, burn off 25% of the energy in the charging batteries, swap and repeat.  You should be able to do this 100 times with the batteries always fresh and ready to pump out energy.  That's the whole idea behind your project.  If you do it I can tell you that everything will start to croak after five or six cycles, and both sets of batteries should be nearly dead after 10 cycles or less.  If you do do that test and are serious, then you should start the test with fully charged source batteries and fully discharged charging batteries.

I won't pass judgment on you, and you are welcome to contribute here if you want.  I would be more than happy to try and help you out if I can.  The simple fact is that this thread discusses Bedini motors at a much higher technical level than the Energetic Forum 10-coiler thread.  I am pretty sure that also applies to the Yahoo Bedini group threads also.  Some of the points in the EF thread are even ridiculous, like the quest for a good earth ground connection.  If you could let other 10-coiler experimenters know about this thread it would be greatly appreciated.

I won't be building a Bedini motor, and I adamantly refuse to have that fact somehow "disqualify" me from discussing the 10-coiler and Bedini motors and testing in general.  The hope is that this thread helps people understand their motors so they can figure out for themselves if the claims are true or not.

To be honest, I have a feeling that my thread may have been dismissed out of hand in the Yahoo groups and some people may discourage others from reading it.

Someone said this about me:

Quote
Not to worry John. I wouldn't have even responded to him the first time

So I am pretty sure that the "John" is John Koorn, one of the "leaders," and he may be discouraging people from reading my thread.  For what it's worth, I have fully qualified John and it's all in the thread.  Plus John is a reseller of Bedini products and you have to factor that in.

Please don't fall into the trap of putting on blinders because there are things being discussed here that you are told by someone else that you don't want to hear.  That is the absolute antithesis of having an open mind and wanting to learn.  It even suggests a kind of totalitarianism where you are accused of "thought-crime" if you look elsewhere for information.

MileHigh
   
img  Plengo
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #189 on: 2010-09-17, 22:03:49 »
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This thread is EXCELLENT. Every Bedini experimenter should read this. Good job MileHigh. I am a experimenter of Bedini stuff and I am learning a lot about your logic ans explanations. Even though I "believe" now in the "radiant stuff" this believe will change into a direction where truth will be the evidence.

I would say science is like that, you observe, repeat, theorize, study it and learn and as you do it you see the reality of things and the process starts again.

It is very easy indeed to fall for mistakes and fakes and false ideas (I am not implying Bedini in that). I have fallen once into the "wrong" religion and it is easy when one does not use logical and critical thinking. That being said, not all is just evidence in the beginning and learning and acquiring knowledge is extremely important elements in the process of becoming mature in those things.

Back to science:

I have this SSG circuit running in self-oscillation mode. No RPMs, no wheels, nothing spinning, no magnets. When the output of the SSG is connected to the battery for example it uses a certain amount of power, lets say 12v at 300ma. When I connect a little lamp (lets say 3 ohms) in series with the battery, this lamps lights and the power usage drops , lets say again to 12v and 100ma. The numbers are not perfect here but shows what I observed. I could do a more formal test and publish data but what drives the logic is what I want.

To me sounds a little strange that when the impedance of the whole output is higher (battery + lamp's resistance) the input consumption goes down. Obviously I don't understand much of electronics to see what is happening but I trust that you will be able to explain this to me. One more thing is that when I disconnect the output from the battery and all, the neons goes lit and consumption goes higher, lets say 12v 400ma.

Many thanks,

Fausto.
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #190 on: 2010-09-18, 02:36:38 »
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Hi Fausto,

Thank you very much for your comments about the thread.

Let me try to answer your question.

Quote
I have this SSG circuit running in self-oscillation mode. No RPMs, no wheels, nothing spinning, no magnets. When the output of the SSG is connected to the battery for example it uses a certain amount of power, lets say 12v at 300ma. When I connect a little lamp (lets say 3 ohms) in series with the battery, this lamps lights and the power usage drops , lets say again to 12v and 100ma. The numbers are not perfect here but shows what I observed. I could do a more formal test and publish data but what drives the logic is what I want.

The first thing worth mentioning is that there is a big difference between an SSG running normally with the rotor turning and self-oscillation mode.

When the rotor is turning you have a "mechanical oscillator" that controls the transfer of energy supplied from the source battery to the charging battery load in discrete chunks of energy.  In this case the theory says that as long as your rotor RPMs remain constant, then your can change the charging battery "load" (eg.: add a light bulb in series with the charging battery) and the average current consumption from the source battery should not change.  You can say in this case the input power consumption from the source battery and the output power into the load are decoupled from one another.

When the SSG circuit is running in self-oscillation mode, you basically have an oscillator.  It's not truly an SSG circuit anymore.  In this case you need to understand how the oscillator is working.  The "load" in this case is just one component in the overall makeup of the oscillator.  You cannot say that changing the "load" component in the oscillator will not affect the power consumption of the oscillator.  You simply don't know if this is true anymore.  For example, when you added the light bulb in series with the charging battery it may have changed the frequency that the oscillator runs at, and that may have affected the power consumption of the circuit.

Quote
To me sounds a little strange that when the impedance of the whole output is higher (battery + lamp's resistance) the input consumption goes down. Obviously I don't understand much of electronics to see what is happening but I trust that you will be able to explain this to me. One more thing is that when I disconnect the output from the battery and all, the neons goes lit and consumption goes higher, lets say 12v 400ma.

A way you can look at this is to say that the oscillator itself has an certain average impedance.  When you added the bulb you changed a component in the oscillator and you created a whole new oscillator circuit with a different impedance, and so the current consumption changed.  The same thing applies for when you disconnected the charging battery and the neon started lighting.  You changed a component in the oscillator and you created a whole new oscillator circuit with a different impedance.  There is probably a good chance that the operating frequency of the oscillator increased when you did this.  It is often the case that increasing frequency results in increased current consumption from the source battery, but it's not always the case.

So you can see that I gave you a long answer above.  The short answer to your question is that I don't know why you observed the current consumption change.  You have to look at the circuit in more detail with your scope probes and try to see what is going on.  One thing for sure is that when your SSG circuit is in self-oscillation mode, you can say that input power consumption from the source battery is NOT decoupled from changing the component in your oscillator that you call the "load."

This story reminds me of something that I already mentioned in this thread.  Do you remember about two years ago when people started playing with car ignition coils to light up CFL lights?  We can also call the entire CFL/ignition coil circuit an "oscillator."  Then people started making earth ground connections and noticed that the CFL light would get brighter.  Many people believed (and still believe) that "extra power was coming up from the earth ground."  That's NOT what was happening.  When they made the earth ground connection they were simply changing or adding a component to their oscillator circuit that resulted in a lowering of the average impedance of their oscillator.  We don't have to worry about exactly why this happened.  However, the lower average impedance of their oscillator circuit meant that there was higher current consumption from the source battery.  The higher current consumption meant that there was more battery power flowing into the oscillator circuit and as a result the CFL light got brighter.

I hope that helped!

MileHigh
   
img  Ren
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #191 on: 2010-09-18, 03:18:24 »
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I remember alot of people connecting to ground on the CFL oscillators and actually decreasing their input current MileHigh.

Not to mention that a while ago you said there was absolutely no impedance or impedance matching at all in the SG circuit but here you state that connecting to ground lowers the impedance?

Im sorry, but I just cant get past the fact that you have not built or explored these simple devices yet you talk as if its your backyard. Show me your devices that dephase and utilize the inductive discharge for separate loads and we can agree that you have at least dabbled in the area. All the education in the world means squat if you havent practised it.  While there are some valid points you have made, and while there are some invalid points that may be made from the other side of the camp, you just dont have it all covered up in one neat little package like you seem to imply. For example your comment in another spot that there are pulses of current, not pulses of voltage coming out of the monopole depending upon what sort of impedance it sees (once again another mention of impedances). Well you cant just have pulses of current, so there must be a voltage associated with it as well. Yes the battery is a complex mix of resistance and capacitance and probably even inductance, all of which change during the charging process and are dependant on the batteries size/condition etc.

Ive moved my experimenting away from batteries, basically because I want to test out other ideas and dont have the budget for large battery banks and multiple coils. Ive even seen and done some of the tests you suggested in the other thread, using incandesant bulbs on the recovery side, permanently shorted to a capacitor. My good friend Erfinder has run at least 6 x 60watt 240v lamps as a load on the backend instead of the charging battery. I have done the same, though its difficult to light the bulb to full brightness with the current transistor. As power is increased to the front end the spike grows larger on the scope, you must adjust your load otherwise your chips blow.

Bottom line is, guys like Bits and John choose who they prefer to converse with. Neither of them are bashing you behind your back, at least not to me and not on any other forum I visit. No one is trying to keep people away from this thread. But its hard to converse with someone who only sees it HIS way, sees nothing special or USEFUL about it, despite never actually building one. I only know of one other person who has bothered to scale this thing up in terms of input and let me say, it starts to get VERY potent....
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #192 on: 2010-09-18, 04:35:08 »
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Hi Ren,

You made a lot of interesting points, let me try to respond to them.

For the CFL ground connection, I am not surprised if it decreased their current consumption also.  It could go either way depending on the specifics of the circuit.  I must have seen 20+ clips like that where the experimenter made the ground connection and saw the light increase in intensity.  They didn't measure the current consumption from their batteries.  They simply assumed extra power was coming up from the ground.  Anyway, it's just an example of drawing the wrong conclusion and it was a long time ago.

Quote
Not to mention that a while ago you said there was absolutely no impedance or impedance matching at all in the SG circuit but here you state that connecting to ground lowers the impedance?

You are mixing apples and oranges here.  A Bedini motor in normal operation is a pulse circuit.  There is no impedance matching between the discharging drive coil and the charging battery load.  If you think that there is, then I invite you to explain that.  For the CFL circuit and the connecting to ground issue, it's not a pulse circuit anymore, it's an AC oscillator.  Impedance matching is not an issue here either, but the impedance of the oscillator relative to the source battery is.  So impedance matching and just measuring AC the impedance of an oscillator are two different things.

Quote
Im sorry, but I just cant get past the fact that you have not built or explored these simple devices yet you talk as if its your backyard.

I already mentioned that I don't buy that argument.  You have to read what I say and decide if it has merit or not.  Certainly debating issues is great also.

Quote
Show me your devices that dephase and utilize the inductive discharge for separate loads and we can agree that you have at least dabbled in the area.

Please clarify what you mean by "dephase," I am not sure what you mean.  Same thing for the separate loads.  I can tell you that a long time ago I did lab work where I analyzed pulse circuits in a fair amount of detail.  I have looked at the pulses, measured the energy in them, measured the time constants, and so on.

Quote
All the education in the world means squat if you havent practised it.

I have practiced it but I haven't played with Bedini motors.  But I will repeat that I have looked at hundreds of Bedini clips and read lots of threads.  There is also a powerful counter-argument to that Ren.  All of the practicing in the wold means next to squat if you are jumping in without having any real understanding or experience in working with electronics.  People can play with this stuff for years and still not really know what they are doing.

Quote
For example your comment in another spot that there are pulses of current, not pulses of voltage coming out of the monopole depending upon what sort of impedance it sees (once again another mention of impedances). Well you cant just have pulses of current, so there must be a voltage associated with it as well.

Yes, a discharging inductor produces pulses of current and you can measure a variable voltage signal as a result of this.  A discharging capacitor produces pulses of voltage and you can measure a variable current signal as a result of this.  The case for the capacitor is easy to understand and intuitive.  The case for the inductor is not so easy to understand and it is not intuitive.  However, once you get over the knowledge "hump" then it is easy to understand.  I can suggest some tests that will make this fact clear as a bell if anybody wants to take me up on the offer.

Also, the output from the Bedini motor drive coil is always in the form of pulses of current.  In the quote above you say "depending upon what sort of impedance it sees."  It doesn't matter what the impedance of the load is, the output is always in the form of a current pulse.  If the impedance of the load is very high, the current pulse will be very short.  If the impedance of the load is very low, the current pulse will be very long.  If you have an ideal inductor and load is zero then there is no current pulse, the current simply flows forever.  This is all related to understanding how an inductor really works.  If you understand this stuff then everything I am saying makes sense.  If you don't understand this then the challenge for you and all Bedini experimenters in the same situation is to try to learn this stuff.

A capacitor's output current will vary depending on the impedance of the load.  An inductor's output voltage will vary depending on the impedance of the load.  Yes indeed, I mentioned impedance again, so what about it?  Can you see an elegant symmetry in what I just stated in the last few paragraphs?  If the vast majority of Bedini experimenters had this level of understanding it would be a whole new ball game.

The key to understanding a Bedin motor is to look at the pulses of voltage on your scope display and realize that they are actually the resultant effects of current pulses.  Certainly both capacitors and inductors produce pulses that consist of pulses of voltage and pulses of current, one goes with the other.  But if you have more understanding then everything that I am stating will become crystal clear.

For example, why do the voltage spikes go away when you connect your charging battery?  I bet you that the vast majority of Bedini experimenters can't answer that question.  That's why this thread is here, the question is not being answered on any other threads as far as I can see.

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #193 on: 2010-09-18, 05:15:27 »
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Ren:

Sorry for the long reply, but I think it is worth it to plug away at these issues.  Most of what I stated in my previous posting has already been stated in the thread but what the hey.

Continuing on:

Quote
Yes the battery is a complex mix of resistance and capacitance and probably even inductance, all of which change during the charging process and are dependant on the batteries size/condition etc.

As far as batteries go, they are modeled as an ideal voltage source in series with an output resistance.  Certainly that output resistance can change as you indicate above.  Forget about capacitance and inductance, they don't apply.

Another key thing for experimenters to learn would be to measure the output resistance of their batteries.  That's probably the best way to measure the state of health of a battery.  That gives you a real tangible piece of data to work with.

Quote
As power is increased to the front end the spike grows larger on the scope, you must adjust your load otherwise your chips blow.

Yes and it would be good for all experiments to learn how to measure the amount of energy in the spike.  It just gives you more information to work with, and hopefully some satisfaction in being able to do that.  It's covered in the Bedini measurement thread started by Plengo.   At least that's how I would feel about it.

Quote
Bottom line is, guys like Bits and John choose who they prefer to converse with. Neither of them are bashing you behind your back, at least not to me and not on any other forum I visit. No one is trying to keep people away from this thread. But its hard to converse with someone who only sees it HIS way, sees nothing special or USEFUL about it, despite never actually building one. I only know of one other person who has bothered to scale this thing up in terms of input and let me say, it starts to get VERY potent....

I know that I have talked tough and I am not twisting anybody's arm to come here.  At the same time you are fully aware of the culture on the free energy forums.  It is far too easy to put on blinders if people are saying things that you don't want to hear because it can upset your hopes for your project.  On the other hand cod liver oil tastes disgusting but it is supposed to be good for you.

My viewpoint may sound inflexible but that's not really the case.  For example, the ball is in your court with respect to the impedance matching issue for the Bedini motor output.  I am willing to listen to you.  For the utility of a Bedini motor, yes I have talked tough.  If you or anyone wants to debate that, that's fine.  We can look at some data together, and it may require further testing be done by someone.  That fact should not be an excuse to cop out and disappear.  If you are serious about your research and someone tells you your data and/or test procedures are suspect, and you have conviction, then you should, in my opinion, want to make your argument more convincing.

I can think of two big Bedini motor "value propositions" that can be challenged.

The first is that the inductive pulse charging method gives you COP > 1 in the charging battery.  In fact, the COP can be so good that it can overcome all of the losses associated with the Bedini motor such that you can swap batteries back and forth and continuously extract energy from the setup.  Here is an example of where I have to talk tough.  From what I could see the Yahoo Bedini group COP testing method is junk and I explain precisely why in the thread.

The second is that the 10-coiler is the "big time" and really packs a punch.  You could even set it up to power your house with massive banks of batteries and voltage inverters to produce 60 Hz mains power.

Ren, I can offer a thought experiment for you.  Supposing five Bedini enthusiasts that are very happy with their setups and love them come to this thread.  They show their data and then we look at it together.  They learn some new stuff and fine tune their measuring skills and within a few months they have all made a 180 degree about-face and come to a new understanding.  What would you say then?

The chances of that happening are very low, but that's what this thread is here for.  It's hear to help people find out for themselves what their Bedini setups can do and what they can't do.

Quote
I only know of one other person who has bothered to scale this thing up in terms of input and let me say, it starts to get VERY potent....

It all sounds great, but some serious measurements and numbers have to be there to back up that potency!

MileHigh
   
img  Ren
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #194 on: 2010-09-18, 05:21:31 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-09-18, 04:35:08
Hi Ren,

You are mixing apples and oranges here.  A Bedini motor in normal operation is a pulse circuit.  There is no impedance matching between the discharging drive coil and the charging battery load.  If you think that there is, then I invite you to explain that.  For the CFL circuit and the connecting to ground issue, it's not a pulse circuit anymore, it's an AC oscillator.  Impedance matching is not an issue here either, but the impedance of the oscillator relative to the source battery is.  So impedance matching and just measuring AC the impedance of an oscillator are two different things. Didnt you just say below that the inductive discharges pulse will vary depending on the impedance of the load? Of course it STILL outputs a current/voltage pulse either way, but what is the quality of that pulse? So doesnt the load effect the qualities of that pulse like you said? Cannot the impedance of the primary coil MATCH the impedance of the discharged energy (load)? Would this not qualify as an IMPEDANCE MATCH? ANd of course you are aware that the Monopole motor (all norths out) does produce a sine wave when scoped, despite this being a pulsed DC operation. Does that come into account?

I already mentioned that I don't buy that argument.  You have to read what I say and decide if it has merit or not.  Certainly debating issues is great also.

Please clarify what you mean by "dephase," I am not sure what you mean.  Same thing for the separate loads.  I can tell you that a long time ago I did lab work where I analyzed pulse circuits in a fair amount of detail.  I have looked at the pulses, measured the energy in them, measured the time constants, and so on.By Dephase I mean out of phase. The inductive discharge occurs out of phase from the initial pulse. The inductive discharge cannot draw more power from the source, because it only occurs when the switch opens, and is only connected to the positive terminal of the source.

I have practiced it but I haven't played with Bedini motors.  But I will repeat that I have looked at hundreds of Bedini clips and read lots of threads.  There is also a powerful counter-argument to that Ren.  All of the practicing in the wold means next to squat if you are jumping in without having any real understanding or experience in working with electronics.  People can play with this stuff for years and still not really know what they are doing. Of course, and Im trying hard to not make any blanket statements here. I at least have had some experience on both sides, studying some of the conservative logic and methods along with experimenting with the circuit in question, and trying to draw my own conclusions.

Yes, a discharging inductor produces pulses of current and you can measure a variable voltage signal as a result of this.  A discharging capacitor produces pulses of voltage and you can measure a variable current signal as a result of this.  The case for the capacitor is easy to understand and intuitive.  The case for the inductor is not so easy to understand and it is not intuitive.  However, once you get over the knowledge "hump" then it is easy to understand.  I can suggest some tests that will make this fact clear as a bell if anybody wants to take me up on the offer.

Also, the output from the Bedini motor drive coil is always in the form of pulses of current.  In the quote above you say "depending upon what sort of impedance it sees."  It doesn't matter what the impedance of the load is, the output is always in the form of a current pulse.Yes but you yourself say that the shape of that current pulse will differ depending on the load!  If the impedance of the load is very high, the current pulse will be very short. So a pulse is a pulse. Nothing special there? Is that what you are trying to say? If the impedance of the load is very low, the current pulse will be very long.  If you have an ideal inductor and load is zero then there is no current pulse, the current simply flows forever.  This is all related to understanding how an inductor really works.  If you understand this stuff then everything I am saying makes sense.  If you don't understand this then the challenge for you and all Bedini experimenters in the same situation is to try to learn this stuff.

A capacitor's output current will vary depending on the impedance of the load.  An inductor's output voltage will vary depending on the impedance of the load.  Yes indeed, I mentioned impedance again, so what about it?  Can you see an elegant symmetry in what I just stated in the last few paragraphs?  If the vast majority of Bedini experimenters had this level of understanding it would be a whole new ball game.

The key to understanding a Bedin motor is to look at the pulses of voltage on your scope display and realize that they are actually the resultant effects of current pulses.  Certainly both capacitors and inductors produce pulses that consist of pulses of voltage and pulses of current, one goes with the other.  But if you have more understanding then everything that I am stating will become crystal clear.

For example, why do the voltage spikes go away when you connect your charging battery?  I bet you that the vast majority of Bedini experimenters can't answer that question.  That's why this thread is here, the question is not being answered on any other threads as far as I can see.Because you have changed the load impedance
MileHigh
   
img  Ren
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #195 on: 2010-09-18, 05:25:55 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-09-18, 05:15:27
Ren:

Sorry for the long reply, but I think it is worth it to plug away at these issues.  Most of what I stated in my previous posting has already been stated in the thread but what the hey.

Continuing on:

As far as batteries go, they are modeled as an ideal voltage source in series with an output resistance.  Certainly that output resistance can change as you indicate above.  Forget about capacitance and inductance, they don't apply. Im sorry but an astute engineer would never disregard parts of the circuit like that. I spoke in length with a good family friend who was an electrical engineer for NASA and he was the one that brought this up, not me.

Another key thing for experimenters to learn would be to measure the output resistance of their batteries.  That's probably the best way to measure the state of health of a battery.  That gives you a real tangible piece of data to work with.

Yes and it would be good for all experiments to learn how to measure the amount of energy in the spike.  It just gives you more information to work with, and hopefully some satisfaction in being able to do that.  It's covered in the Bedini measurement thread started by Plengo.   At least that's how I would feel about it.

I know that I have talked tough and I am not twisting anybody's arm to come here.  At the same time you are fully aware of the culture on the free energy forums.  It is far too easy to put on blinders if people are saying things that you don't want to hear because it can upset your hopes for your project.  On the other hand cod liver oil tastes disgusting but it is supposed to be good for you.

My viewpoint may sound inflexible but that's not really the case.  For example, the ball is in your court with respect to the impedance matching issue for the Bedini motor output.  I am willing to listen to you.  For the utility of a Bedini motor, yes I have talked tough.  If you or anyone wants to debate that, that's fine.  We can look at some data together, and it may require further testing be done by someone.  That fact should not be an excuse to cop out and disappear.  If you are serious about your research and someone tells you your data and/or test procedures are suspect, and you have conviction, then you should, in my opinion, want to make your argument more convincing.

I can think of two big Bedini motor "value propositions" that can be challenged.

The first is that the inductive pulse charging method gives you COP > 1 in the charging battery.  In fact, the COP can be so good that it can overcome all of the losses associated with the Bedini motor such that you can swap batteries back and forth and continuously extract energy from the setup.  Here is an example of where I have to talk tough.  From what I could see the Yahoo Bedini group COP testing method is junk and I explain precisely why in the thread.

The second is that the 10-coiler is the "big time" and really packs a punch.  You could even set it up to power your house with massive banks of batteries and power your house.

Ren, I can offer a thought experiment for you.  Supposing five Bedini enthusiasts that are very happy with their setups and love them come to this thread.  They show their data and then we look at it together.  They learn some new stuff and fine tune their measuring skills and within a few months they have all made a 180 degree about-face and come to a new understanding.  What would you say then?

The chances of that happening are very low, but that's what this thread is here for.  It's hear to help people find out for themselves what their Bedini setups can do and what they can't do.

It all sounds great, but some serious measurements and numbers have to be there to back up that potency!



MileHigh

Fair enough in response to your last line. I will be on my way then, and perhaps return one day with some "measurements and numbers" to back it up.

Regards
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #196 on: 2010-09-18, 06:02:19 »
Group: Guest
Hi Ren,

Thanks for your comments.

For the impedance matching issue you stated:

Quote
Didnt you just say below that the inductive discharges pulse will vary depending on the impedance of the load? Of course it STILL outputs a current/voltage pulse either way, but what is the quality of that pulse? So doesnt the load effect the qualities of that pulse like you said? Cannot the impedance of the primary coil MATCH the impedance of the discharged energy (load)? Would this not qualify as an IMPEDANCE MATCH? ANd of course you are aware that the Monopole motor (all norths out) does produce a sine wave when scoped, despite this being a pulsed DC operation. Does that come into account?

I have another way to explain this one to you, but permit me to hold off on it for now.  I'm nearly 100% certain that you know that an impedance match is to get the maximum power transfer from the source to the load.  To answer your question above yes, the load affects the quality of the pulse.

You are strong in your convictions and that's great, so I have some follow-up questions to pose to you.  What is the output impedance of the primary coil?  What is the input impedance of the charging battery load?  Where is the match?

For the monopole motor, I am aware that it produces a sine wave on a pick-up coil.  You can also see pieces of a sine wave on the drive coil.  But beyond that I am not sure were you are going with that and how it relates to impedance matching.  If you can clarify that would be great.

Your comments about the dephasing:

Quote
By Dephase I mean out of phase. The inductive discharge occurs out of phase from the initial pulse. The inductive discharge cannot draw more power from the source, because it only occurs when the switch opens, and is only connected to the positive terminal of the source.

Okay, sure.  I will just add to that statement.  When the transistor is on, the drive coil is being charged with energy.  Then the transistor switches off and the coil discharges its stored energy into the charging battery.  So yes, some energy is stored and displaced in time and released in a new time phase.  So going back to your original question yes there are many devices that do this function.  People are more familiar with capacitors as energy storage devices but inductors are also perfectly viable energy storage devices.  A Joule Thief comes to mind right away.

On Bedini motor pulses:

Quote
Yes but you yourself say that the shape of that current pulse will differ depending on the load!  If the impedance of the load is very high, the current pulse will be very short. So a pulse is a pulse. Nothing special there? Is that what you are trying to say?

What I am trying to say is that it is worth it to study how and why the pulse shape is formed by a discharging inductor.  There is nothing special just like you would say there is nothing special when looking at the pulse shape of a capacitor discharge.

Think about this:  You know both caps and coils store energy.  The smaller the resistance you connect across the capacitor the faster it discharges.  It's common sense.  You know that if you short a capacitor out you get a spark, all of the energy is dissipated in a split second.  So what about a coil?  One more time, there is a symmetrical answer, but it is not common sense and not so intuitive.  For a coil, as you increase the resistance across it, the faster it discharges.  If you open-circuit the coil, you get a spark, and all of the energy is dissipated in a split second.  So you can see the symmetry one more time.

What happens when we explore the symmetry in the other direction?  It's simple and easy and makes sense:  If you open-circuit a capacitor then it doesn't discharge, it simply keeps on storing its energy.  If you short-circuit a coil, then it doesn't discharge, it simply keeps on storing its energy.

My question about the spikes going away:

Quote
For example, why do the voltage spikes go away when you connect your charging battery?  I bet you that the vast majority of Bedini experimenters can't answer that question.  That's why this thread is here, the question is not being answered on any other threads as far as I can see.Because you have changed the load impedance

Absolutely correct.  Following up on the stuff that I said above:  If the load impedance is zero, then there is no voltage spike at all!  The higher the load impedance, the higher the voltage spike.  So if you put a 1-ohm resistance as the load, then you can look at the voltage spike on your scope and measure the initial current flowing through the coil.  You can change that to a 10-ohm resistance, and you will still measure the same initial current going through the coil, but this time the voltage spike will be shorter in duration.

A fun follow-up question, and I already asked it before:  What is the load impedance of the charging battery?

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #197 on: 2010-09-18, 06:29:49 »
Group: Guest
Hi Ren,

Are we having fun?  lol

To respond to the issue about batteries:

Quote
As far as batteries go, they are modeled as an ideal voltage source in series with an output resistance.  Certainly that output resistance can change as you indicate above.  Forget about capacitance and inductance, they don't apply. >>> Im sorry but an astute engineer would never disregard parts of the circuit like that. I spoke in length with a good family friend who was an electrical engineer for NASA and he was the one that brought this up, not me.

Sure let me give you more thoughts on this because it is an important issue.

It all depends on the size of the battery and the application.  Any battery has capacitance and inductance in the same sense that any component has capacitance and inductance associated with it.  The question once came up on YouTube somewhere else where someone  asked, "What's the simplest inductor?"  The answer is, "A piece of wire."

In this application, typically a lead-acid battery driving a Bedini motor, the inductance and capacitance associated with the lead-acid battery are insignificant by many orders of magnitude.  There is no capacitance to speak of within the battery itself.  Don't be confused by the plates inside the battery with capacitor plates.  The only capacitance associated with the battery would really be associated with the interconnect wires, but that would be about the same size as the interconnect wires within the Bedini motor itself.

For the inductance, one more time there is no inductance within the battery to speak of.  You are back to looking at the minuscule inductance associated with the interconnect wires, and the same argument applies.

Let me give you a silly but applicable analogy.  The main components of the lead-acid battery are the ideal voltage source in series with the output resistance.  That's the elephant.  The capacitance and inductance associated with the lead-acid battery are like two fleas on the elephant.

As a general statement, it is very important to understand the relative importance of the circuit elements that make up the models for your components.  Frequency comes into play here also.

Another example, take a 1000 uF capacitor.  Nobody worries about the inductance associated with the capacitor because it is insignificant in comparison to the capacitance by many orders of magnitude.  Supposing that capacitor is used in an application to conduct a 30 KHz AC signal?  That should work fine.  However, what if you now want that same capacitor to conduct a 20 GHz AC signal?  Now you start to worry about the very small inductance associated with that capacitor because chances are that it will block that AC signal.

Going back to batteries, for sure there may be specific applications where the inductance and capacitance associated with the battery may come into play.  Some microcircuits that operate at high frequency that use very small batteries may be examples of where you need to worry about this.

But for a big fat and dumb lead-acid battery powering a Bedini motor, you never have to worry about the battery's associated capacitance and inductance.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-09-18, 07:01:17 by MileHigh »
   
img  Plengo
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #198 on: 2010-09-18, 18:33:48 »
Group: Guest
@MileHigh,

Quote
Also, the output from the Bedini motor drive coil is always in the form of pulses of current.  In the quote above you say "depending upon what sort of impedance it sees."  It doesn't matter what the impedance of the load is, the output is always in the form of a current pulse.  If the impedance of the load is very high, the current pulse will be very short.  If the impedance of the load is very low, the current pulse will be very long.  If you have an ideal inductor and load is zero then there is no current pulse, the current simply flows forever.  

I can see the logic on the variation of voltage and current since both are the components of the power. Since power coming out of the coil is always constant for a given input of power it only changes the V or the I depending on the R of the load.

Now I am confused about your statement above which I colored. You say for the inductor current output will be:
1) resistance load high = short pulse  = higher current
2) resistance load low  = longer pulse = lower current

Is that correct? It sounds not intuitive.

Fausto.
   
img  poynt99
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #199 on: 2010-09-18, 18:53:06 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Fausto,

The coil stores then releases energy. The energy released will be less than what was stored because of the DCR losses associated with the coil. There will be a small amount of energy dissipated (lost) in this coil resistance.

Regarding load impedance, the coil's output voltage during the kickback will "adjust" such that all the energy that was stored, can be released (minus the losses). In effect, the coil current is at the same level or amplitude regardless of the load impedance. Only the length of the current pulse varies, as does the voltage of the pulse.

load impedance high = pulse voltage: high, voltage/current pulse duration: short, current pulse amplitude: 1 unit
load impedance low = pulse voltage: low, voltage/current pulse duration: long, current pulse amplitude: 1 unit

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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