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OverUnity Research > Motors > Bedini > Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion
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img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #75 on: 2010-08-06, 23:32:00 »
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Hi Rosemary:

In my posting I made simple, bit still valid analogies.  The electrons are gaining or loosing energy in lock step with the electric field that they are associated with.  I am not going to go into this any deeper, the main point is that current flows in a loop, and associated with that loop you have some drive mechanism or mechanisms that elevate the potential of the electrons in the current flow, or lower the potential of the electrons in the current flow, like some circular roller-coaster track.  Raising the potential implies that there is a source of energy and lowering the potential implies the dissipation of that energy.  This is all very simplified here.  You seem to be focused on "excesses of electrons" and where they come from, which is moot, it's a non-issue.

For the Single vs. Multi, indeed the Multi can draw more battery current than the Single.  The Multi has the potential to draw more current from the source battery, but if you put them on an equal footing with the current in each strand of the Multi being equal to the current through the Single, then they will store exactly the same amount of energy.

The Multi offers less resistance to current flow because it possesses less inductance and less resistance compared to the Single.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-08-07, 00:02:31 by MileHigh »
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #76 on: 2010-08-07, 06:33:45 »
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hello MileHigh.  I love your analogy to a rollercoaster.   

To my shame I honestly did NOT know that series inductive loads increase current flow.  I just assumed that they'd act in the same way as resistors.  Apologies.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #77 on: 2010-08-07, 15:27:39 »
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Hi Rosemary,

There are no series inductive loads.  Using my example, the Multi is effectively a single-wire coil with 8 turns and the Single is a single-wire coil with 64 turns.  In the Multi the eight wires are in parallel, not in series.  The Multi has 1/64th the inductance of the Single.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #78 on: 2010-08-07, 20:08:12 »
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Just for fun, let's design an inductor-based solar battery charger.  Bedini enthusiasts talk about connecting a Bedini motor to a solar panel, and then you can charge a battery even if the solar panel's output voltage is below the voltage of the charging battery.  The solar panel energizes the inductor, and then you switch off, and the inductor becomes a current source and transfers a fixed amount of energy in Joules into the charging battery.  It doesn't matter what the voltage of the charging battery is, you can still charge it.

It all sounds good, but the main problem is you can't do an impedance match with the solar panel like this.  Even through you are charging the battery, there is a very good chance you are only getting a fraction of the available power that the solar panel could output.

The solar panel wants to transfer it's output power into what looks like a constant resistive load that is its impedance match.  The impedance of the Bedini motor is a function of time.  When the coil switches on to start the charging cycle, the impedance of the Bedini motor is close to infinity.  As the coil starts energizing, the impedance starts falling towards zero.  Then the transistor switches off and the impedance of the Bedini motor is near infinity again.  It's a total mismatch with what the solar panel wants to see, and as a result you are only extracting a fraction of the available juice that the solar panel could theoretically provide.

So what needs to be done is to create a circuit that goes between the solar panel and your inductor discharging circuit.  You can't use a Bedini motor as the inductor discharging circuit because you don't have enough control over the timing of the inductor discharging.  You want precise control over the frequency of the charging of the inductor, and for how long you switch the transistor ON to energize the inductor for every charge cycle.  A Bedini motor simply can't give you the level of control that you need.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-08-07, 21:28:21 by MileHigh »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #79 on: 2010-08-07, 20:49:41 »
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The fist thing is that you have to check what is written on the back of the solar panel.  You will see a stamp or a label on the back of the panel that lists a voltage and a current value for when the panel is in full sunlight.  Those are the optimum output parameters for the panel.  That's the layperson's way of indicating the output impedance of the panel.  Suppose it says 12 volts and 200 milliamperes.   So the output impedance of the panel is (12/0.2) = 60 ohms in bright sunlight.  So if you can make your load "look like" a 60-ohm load you will extract the maximum amount of power from the panel, (12 x 0.2) = 2.4 Watts.

Let's define the inductive discharging circuit we need to do this.  It's a standard Bedini-like setup with a switching transistor and a diode that connects to the charging battery.  The transistor base is triggered by a 555-based timing circuit.  It's the same timing circuit that I described before, a bistable multivibrator connected to a monostable multivibrator, then connected to the transistor base.  You have a variable resistor to adjust the frequency of the pulsing connected to the bistable multivibrator, and a variable resistor to adjust the length of the pulse width for the monostable multivibrator to control the transistor ON time.  In other words - a pot to control the pulse frequency and another pot to control the pulse width.

The circuit that goes between the solar panel and the inductor discharging circuit is trivial, it's just a big low pass filtering capacitor between the solar panel output and ground.  So what it ends up looking like is the solar panel charges the big capacitor, and then when the transistor switches on, it's the big capacitor that charges the inductor.

When you switch on the setup, you need to have a multimeter monitoring the voltage across the big capacitor.  You then tweak the pulse frequency and the pulse width using your potentiometers so that the voltage across the capacitor stabilizes 12 volts, the optimum voltage for the solar panel.  Typically you will want to make the pulse width very short, so that the inductor does not have too much current going though it to minimize the resistive losses in the wire.  So with a short ON pulse, you play with the pulse frequency to get the big filtering cap voltage to stabilize at 12 volts.

That's it, you have done it.  You are extracting the maximum possible power from the solar panel in full sunlight and using that power to charge an inductor, and then discharging that inductor into a charging battery.  This setup will typically outperform an equivalent solar-panel-Bedini-motor setup by a huge margin because you have done a true impedance match with the solar panel.

For 10 Bonus points, you could do a "smart" version of this setup where a micocontroller board like an Arduino controls the timing of the pulsing.  Two A/D channels would be needed.  One channel would monitor the big capacitor voltage.  The second channel would monitor the light intensity with a photocell setup.  A software algorithm would read the light intensity and then look up a table in memory that tells it what the optimum cap voltage is for a given amount of light.  Then the software would tweak the timing of the pulsing to bring the cap voltage to its optimum level.  In other words, the output impedance of the solar panel varies with the light intensity striking it.  The microcontroller setup could dynamically adjust the impedance of the "load" to ensure maximum power transfer at any light level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeScmRwzQho

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-08-07, 22:26:39 by MileHigh »
   
img  ion
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #80 on: 2010-08-07, 23:50:59 »
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It's turtles all the way down
For what it's worth I've got a couple of designs on the bench right now for a forward motion and regenerative braking system for electric bicycle utilizing a pic based microcontroller pwm.

I've been fiddling with similar circuits for windmill systems that allow some inductor charge and discharge into a battery when wind speed is below battery threshold....not much energy there but still a bit to capture.

I've also got on the bench a line operated pulse battery charger system of very simple design that will impedance match to one or many series connected cells.

I thoroughly enjoy playing with switchmode circuits.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #81 on: 2010-08-08, 02:43:36 »
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Ion:

Quote
I've also got on the bench a line operated pulse battery charger system of very simple design that will impedance match to one or many series connected cells.

This is a technical issue that I have discussed a few times, but it is worth mentioning again.  When you say a "pulse battery charger" I assume that you are talking about a discharging inductor like we are all familiar with, as in a Bedini motor.

Sometimes I clarify technical points that appear to go against the grain, and I know that most Bedini enthusiasts believe that there is some kind of impedance matching going on with a Bedini motor on the charging side.

The "surprise" is that in fact there is no impedance matching going on.  The nature of the beast is that the discharging inductor will discharge its stored energy into any type of charging battery load.  The best that you can say is that the higher the impedance of the charging battery load, the faster the inductor will discharge its energy into that load.  So no matter what, the inductor discharges all of its stored energy, independent of the load.  In that sense there is no impedance matching going on.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #82 on: 2010-08-09, 02:58:49 »
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Quote
When you say a "pulse battery charger" I assume that you are talking about a discharging inductor like we are all familiar with, as in a Bedini motor.

Yes, a discharging inductor like we are all familiar with.

But I am not a Bedini enthusiast, don't believe in his work, most of it can be replaced with simpler and less costly SS designs.

I feel sorry for people that part with money to send to JB. Also, his battery shell game annoys me.

But if people learn something from buying one of his kits, more power to them.

A fool and his money are soon parted....maybe that is the most important lesson they will learn.

Quote
The "surprise" is that in fact there is no impedance matching going on.  The nature of the beast is that the discharging inductor will discharge its stored energy into any type of charging battery load.  The best that you can say is that the higher the impedance of the charging battery load, the faster the inductor will discharge its energy into that load.  So no matter what, the inductor discharges all of its stored energy, independent of the load.  In that sense there is no impedance matching going on.

You are correct, strictly speaking there is no impedance matching going on. I should have said it is not necessary to make any adjustments to match the voltage output to the number of series connected cells as it is automatic and inherent in a discharging inductor design.

Even new batteries that have been sitting around in a discharged state will develop a thin layer of sulphation that raises the effective internal impedance of the device. It is difficult to dissolve this thin layer back into solution with voltage source-current limited chargers.

The high output voltage of a discharging inductor can aid in dissolving this layer back into the electrolyte. This more than likely accounts for the sudden increase in apparent capacity of a battery
charged for a time on a "current source" charger such as a Bedini machine.

But as you already know and have pointed out, it is a bit false to imply that  rotating magnets are the only way to accomplish  this.

It bugs me to see charlatans getting away with this. Caveat Emptor


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  John_K
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #83 on: 2010-08-09, 10:57:29 »
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Good to see the Bedini skeptics are still around, it gives me more motivation.

Question: Have you actually built a Bedini system to spec and done 30+ cycles of scientific load testing?

If not, quit bagging the man out until you have. His stuff works, period. I have the data to prove it. I have achieved COP>1.

I have a COP>1 Bedini based design running on the bench now. Have you?

Still lurking and laughing in the background.... ;D

John K.
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #84 on: 2010-08-09, 14:47:53 »

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Quote from: John_K on 2010-08-09, 10:57:29
Good to see the Bedini skeptics are still around, it gives me more motivation.

Question: Have you actually built a Bedini system to spec and done 30+ cycles of scientific load testing?

If not, quit bagging the man out until you have. His stuff works, period. I have the data to prove it. I have achieved COP>1.

I have a COP>1 Bedini based design running on the bench now. Have you?

Still lurking and laughing in the background.... ;D

John K.


You're talkin' the talk, now let's walk the walk.

Let's see the data. 
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #85 on: 2010-08-09, 15:09:48 »
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John:

Can you elaborate on your COP>1 statement?

MileHigh
   
img  ion
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #86 on: 2010-08-09, 15:37:32 »
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Quote
Good to see the Bedini skeptics are still around, it gives me more motivation.

I was not always a skeptic. I parted with money and bought some of his papers in the late 80's. Since then I have followed his video's, analyzed some of his outrageously priced audio amp designs and watched his company stock fluctuate into the pink.

I am not impressed with his presentations or lecture style or offerings of chargers.

John K. you have the perfect right to your beliefs about the man as I also have.

Now replace those batteries with capacitors and see if your self runner sustains itself to a COP>1, or close the loop around a single capacitor.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  John_K
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #87 on: 2010-08-10, 01:03:17 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-08-09, 14:47:53
You're talkin' the talk, now let's walk the walk.

Let's see the data. 

No Grumpy, not until you've answered my question.

John K
   
img  John_K
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #88 on: 2010-08-10, 01:04:16 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-08-09, 15:09:48
John:

Can you elaborate on your COP>1 statement?

MileHigh

No MileHigh, not until you've answered my question.

John K.
   
img  John_K
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #89 on: 2010-08-10, 01:10:08 »
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Quote from: ION on 2010-08-09, 15:37:32
I was not always a skeptic. I parted with money and bought some of his papers in the late 80's. Since then I have followed his video's, analyzed some of his outrageously priced audio amp designs and watched his company stock fluctuate into the pink.

I am not impressed with his presentations or lecture style or offerings of chargers.

John K. you have the perfect right to your beliefs about the man as I also have.

Now replace those batteries with capacitors and see if your self runner sustains itself to a COP>1, or close the loop around a single capacitor.

Ion,

Yes, it's great that we live in a society where we can freely express out beliefs and opinions.

I never said I have a self-runner, I said I have a COP>1 system. It will not work with capacitors or closed loop systems. The energy gains are in the batteries in a "duality of closed paths, or a singularity of open paths".

Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention that I have a COP=Infinity system running in my lab as well. It is also a Bedini based system.

John K.
   
img  ion
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #90 on: 2010-08-10, 01:15:28 »
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Quote
Oh yeah, I also forgot to mention that I have a COP=Infinity system running in my lab as well. It is also a Bedini based system.

Well I'll have to take my hat off to ya, John, and if you've got some salt, I'll eat that hat.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #91 on: 2010-08-10, 01:20:20 »
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John:

The answer is no, I haven't.  I have never played with a Bedini motor.  On the other hand I looked at a lot of YouTube clips with Bedini motors a few years ago, easily more than 100.  I also have read many threads on Bedini motors.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #92 on: 2010-08-10, 05:13:13 »

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Quote from: John_K on 2010-08-10, 01:03:17
No Grumpy, not until you've answered my question.

John K

The answer is "NO" I do not have any sort of Bedini device.  I do not need or want one.

I'm a real smartass and I have advanced knowledge, so I know that Bedini's devices can not work as claimed.

Heat pumps are COP >1  whoop-de-doo
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #93 on: 2010-08-11, 01:22:53 »
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@All
This thread is priceless, the self-proclaimed experts who say the Bedini technology cannot work have never actually built one which means they are an expert in nothing other than opinion. Then there are others who's ego cannot let anyone else take the stage thus they are compelled to make even grander claims, lol. This is yet another reason why I like these forums so much, it is a great lesson in psychology and the human condition, that is why we do things and think the way we do. I'm going to go out a limb here and ask the hopefully unbiased question I think John would like us to ask---- Could you expand on the concept of "duality of closed paths, or a singularity of open paths" as it relates to Bedini's technology without giving away any information you may not feel comfortable with?
You see that wasn't so hard and we may actually learn something of John_K's perspective which is a good thing.
Note: For the record I have built both Bedini's rotary and solid state systems to spec.
Regards
AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #94 on: 2010-08-11, 01:29:23 »
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AC:

So you were the fist to jump on it!  Congrats!  It's unfortunate that what you are saying is not true.  You don't have to build the thing to know how it works!

Often that strategy is used as a loaded question.  It's even used as an escape mechanism by the person that poses the question.

You can certainly learn a lot about the human condition, I have to agree with you there.  You are also part of the display.

Also, I will reply to your email, sorry for the delay.

MileHigh

P.S.:  I can see John K has returned.  My comments above are generic, not directed at anybody.  I would be more than happy to discuss Bedini motors with you or anybody.
   
img  John_K
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #95 on: 2010-08-11, 01:50:11 »
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Quote from: allcanadian on 2010-08-11, 01:22:53
@All
This thread is priceless, the self-proclaimed experts who say the Bedini technology cannot work have never actually built one which means they are an expert in nothing other than opinion. Then there are others who's ego cannot let anyone else take the stage thus they are compelled to make even grander claims, lol. This is yet another reason why I like these forums so much, it is a great lesson in psychology and the human condition, that is why we do things and think the way we do. I'm going to go out a limb here and ask the hopefully unbiased question I think John would like us to ask---- Could you expand on the concept of "duality of closed paths, or a singularity of open paths" as it relates to Bedini's technology without giving away any information you may not feel comfortable with?
You see that wasn't so hard and we may actually learn something of John_K's perspective which is a good thing.
Note: For the record I have built both Bedini's rotary and solid state systems to spec.
Regards
AC

AC,

Sure I can. It's been on the Internet for years. I may have not quoted it exactly correct. Go to this page for more information:

http://www.cheniere.org/misc/kron.htm

Since you have also built Bedini systems, what did you conclude from your experiments?

John K.
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #96 on: 2010-08-11, 02:01:56 »
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John:

I read your link but didn't get too much from it.  You seem to be indicating this concept applies to a Bedini motor and the charging process.  Can you tell us more?  Also, can you talk about your COP >1 and COP infinity claims?

MileHigh
   
img  John_K
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #97 on: 2010-08-11, 02:57:20 »
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MileHigh,

I would advise to read the following for a better understanding of the process...

http://www.icehouse.net/john1/
http://www.icehouse.net/john1/index101.htm
http://www.signallake.com/old/innovation/col_0221.pdf

You could also Google "the missing concept of "open-paths" (the dual of "closed-paths") " for more information.

John K.
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #98 on: 2010-08-11, 03:02:59 »
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I picked up on one thing in Bearden's blurb about "Gabriel Kron and the Negative Resistor" which comes from Bearden's book, "On Extracting Electromagnetic Energy from the Vacuum.”

Bearden says this:

Quote
A true negative resistor appears to have been developed by the renowned Gabriel Kron, who was never permitted to reveal its construction or specifically reveal its development.

Bearden is setting up an "aura" about the mysterious "negative resistor."  It is ostensibly a source of energy, drawing energy from the "Heaviside energy component."

Note that the "forbidden fruit" card is being played by Bearden.  Bearden even says, "Apparently Kron was required to insert the words 'none or' in that statement."  MIB suppression card being played also.  Steorn plays the "forbidden fruit" card also.

I am being somewhat harsh but with good reason.

I did a search on "Gabriel Kron" and it took me less than one minute to get this link:

http://www.quantum-chemistry-history.com/Kron_Dat/Kron-1945/Kron-PR-1945/Kron-PR-1945.htm

To quote:

Quote
1. The circuit contains positive and negative resistors and in each state the currents and voltages are constant in time. The state is changed by varying the resistances, corresponding to a change in eigenvalue (energy level).

2. Although negative resistances are available for use with a network analyzer, in practice it is more convenient to use a second type of circuit, in which the positive and negative resistors are replaced by inductors and capacitors and the d.c. currents and voltages are replaced by a.c. currents and voltages of fixed frequency. The use of the second type of interpretation is equivalent to multiplying the wave equation by i = √- 1.

In the diagrams to follow, unless otherwise stated, the inductors (whose reactance at the fixed frequency is denoted by XL ) may also be viewed as positive resistances of value XL and the capacitors (whose reactance is denoted by - XC ) as negative resistances of value - XC.

The real "negative resistor" in the network analyzer at that time was implemented with some sort of a tube-based amplifier circuit.  You can easily create a "negative resistor" nowadays using operational amplifiers configured in such a way to make a network element that behaves like a negative resistor.   You can easily find this in an op-amp applications book.  Alternatively, as they state above, you can play with flipping the time and frequency domain modeling such that you emulate the DC behaviour of a circuit by using a fixed AC frequency.   This gives you the ability to model a negative resistor using a capacitor.

I am not going to go into mathematical circuit modeling, but "XL" and "-XC" come from frequency domain modeling of circuit components.  An inductor's circuit impedance is jwL and a capacitor's is (1/j)(wC) = -jwC.   ("w" is really omega, angular frequency, and "j" is the square root of -1. )  I am really rusty here as a disclaimer...

The main point is that this is all very well known stuff.  It makes perfect sense to use a capacitor to model a negative resistor as described above where you simulate DC behaviour by going over to the frequency domain.  You can also model a real negative resistor with active components, be they tube-based amplifiers or transistor-based operational amplifiers.

Back to Bearden:

Quote
Here the introductory clause states in rather certain terms that negative resistors were available for use on the network analyzer, and Kron slipped this one through the censors.

For sure they were available, the "negative resistors" were nothing more than boring old vanilla capacitors, or some sort of active tube-based circuit.  There was no censorship issue, Mr. Bearden is dishing out goop.  The "network analyzer" is simply an analog computer.  It's what I often talk about, using electrical circuits to model real-world physical systems like a car's suspension and vice-versa.  Analog computers were used for decades before digital computers existed and they still use them.

So what Bearden is saying is nonsense.  He is mining true research information from the 1940s that was done to model big electrical motors and stuff like that, and snowing his audience and telling them pure fiction.  There is no "mysterious negative resistor" that was "suppressed."  Sorry for being that harsh, but it's the truth.

MileHigh

Edit:  Corrected and changed "inductor" for "capacitor" in a few instances above.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-11, 04:11:06 by MileHigh »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #99 on: 2010-08-11, 03:16:32 »
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John:

You can see that I just indicated that I am not impressed with the "negative resistor" angle from my previous posting.  I know reading that may upset some people, or affect them in other ways.  If someone is a big Bearden fan, and they agree with me that Bearden is hoodwinking people with his "negative resistor" talk, then the bottom may fall out of their whole "Bearden Universe."

I will give the second link a read first, "Explanation of John Bedini's Formation of Negative Resistors in Batteries By Tom Bearden 4-26-00."  But you can see by what I posted above that I am not impressed by Bearden because frankly I smell a rat with respect to his "negative resistor" talk.  Just telling the truth.

I will still look at the material.

But what about your experience, your work?  That's what a few of us are asking you to share with us.

Thanks,

MileHigh
   
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