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img  Grumpy
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #25 on: 2010-07-25, 23:00:17 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-25, 21:53:49
Poynt:

The clue for anyone interested in the single-strand coil vs. the parallel 8-filar coil design issue is that as you add more strands to the parallel setup, the inductance of the coil remains the same.  So like you said you have a narrower pulse with a higher initial current, and it takes less time to energize the parallel 8-filar coil as compared to the single-strand coil.  Like I said I can do a more detailed breakdown on that in a week or so.

So, the coil also "discharge faster' with 8 parallel wires rather than a single very long wire.

Does this make the output pulse rise faster?  If so, that may be the reason to use it.


Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-25, 21:53:49
Grumpy:

Thanks for the link for the displacement current.  I actually reviewed that a few months ago and forgot about it (again).  In a nutshell there is no displacement current to be found in a typical Bedini setup.  The classic example for displacement current would be in the space between capacitor plates when there is an AC current flowing through the capacitor.  Displacement current is only associated with time varying electric fields.  Honesty, I think it would be fair to say that in almost all cases you can completely ignore the issue of displacement current when you try to understand how a circuit works.  It's just accounting for what happens in the space between the two plates of a capacitor.
That one makes my alarm bells go off unless I am missing something.  There is a magnetic field outside a coil, not an electric field.

Going back to displacement current, that's one explanation for so-called "cold electricity."  On another thread I explained how every "cold electricity" clip I have ever seen on YouTube was really just high frequency AC propagating through various setups to ground to make light bulbs light up with a single-wire, etc.  I said that the high frequency AC was capacitively coupling to ground and completing the circuit even though there did not appear to be a closed-loop circuit.  So there is your displacement current in action.  Same thing for stray capacitive effects in a circuit.

MileHigh

If you are using "pulses" then you have a time-dependent electric field.  If the rate of change is very fast then you may be incorrect in your analysis if you "ignore" the displacement current.

Displacement current resides in the dielectric n ot the conductor, else it would be the same as conduction current.  All currents have an associated magnetic field, even displacement current and convection current.  The "total current" in a circuit consists of the sum of all of the different forms of current.  You can read Einstein's take on that subject.  Displacement current is normally thought of as being very weak, but Eric Dollard and a host of others that work with high energy pulses know it must be considered in there line of work. 

If Bedini is somehow able to alter the amount of energy stored in a battery, then how might this be occurring?

(I doubt that "W h/kg" measurements are available to confirm the claims.)
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #26 on: 2010-07-25, 23:04:26 »
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Ren:

Quote
So the supply is connected to the coil and the coil is connected to the charging battery......And the charging battery is connected to the supply, at least on one terminal.

Sorry I dont see complete isolation here.

No current flows through the charging battery when the transistor switches on and the source battery is energizing the drive coil.  When the transistor switches off no current flows through the source battery and a now the charging battery circuit becomes active and the drive coil discharges through the charging battery.  The fact that the source battery's positive terminal and the charging battery's negative terminal are on the same same node it not really a "big deal."  These two events always take place in their own respective time slot.  It's like there are two separate circuits superimposed on top of each other, and when one is active the other is inactive and vice-versa.  The coil is just a "football" to pass energy from the drive circuit to the charging circuit.

This is a bit of a stretch, but it is almost like you have two bench power supplies with a common ground.  Power supply A powers motor A and power supply B powers motor B.  The fact that the two motors share a common ground in not significant.  There will be no electrical interactions between the two motors.

Quote
I find it unusual that your description of displacement current as being related to the space between capacitor plates and varying electric(magnetic) fields, and then you go on to say it has nothing to do with the Bedini monopole. I may not have my head totally around displacement current yet, but to me it would seem that we are talking directly about the space between capacitor plates (charging battery OR capacitor) and the sharp variation of electric(and his counterpart magnetic) fields.

If you are suggesting that you swap out a charging battery with a capacitor, then indeed there will be displacement current through the capacitor every time the drive coil discharges.  The displacement current will be identical in value to the real current flowing through the wires.  By the same token you know that opposite charges are accumulating on both of the capacitor plates to account for the current flow.  In that sense the displacement current is just "filling in the blanks" with respect to describing the functioning of the circuit down to the nitty-gritty detail level.  In that sense you can ignore it, it is a level of detail that you don't need to worry about.

In a battery there is real current flowing through the plates and the electrolyte, there is no displacement current.  Battery plates and capacitor plates are two separate and distinct things.  A battery does not accumulate charge like a capacitor does.  And to split hairs, the true net charge on a capacitor is always zero.

Quote
Dont agree with you on the impedance thing. How many transformers have an output impedance of 0.001 ohms? I find it unusual that you would discard impedance so quickly when JB talks about it all the time, and comes from a heavy AUDIO backround, where impedance is king. Some have even noted that the SG resembles a basic speaker driver, where the charging battery replaces the speaker.

I can't really comment on what John Bedini says with respect to impedance matching in a Bedini motor without seeing real quotes.  What I can say is that when the transistor switches off and the drive coil discharges into the charging battery, impedance is not an issue.  To put it another way, it is a misnomer to discuss impedance matching when the drive coil discharges into the charging battery.  I know that might be a little bit shocking for some people to read, and push some hot buttons for some, but that's the case.

There is nothing to "match" when the drive coil pulses current into a charging battery.  I know that's going to ruffle some feathers, but that's how it works.  The output impedance of the discharging drive coil approaches infinity, so the input impedance of the charging battery is irrelevant.  I know the EF crowd will take issue with that statement, might be fun!  lol

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-07-26, 00:22:16 by MileHigh »
   
img  Fraser
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #27 on: 2010-07-25, 23:11:00 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-25, 21:53:49
That one makes my alarm bells go off unless I am missing something.  There is a magnetic field outside a coil, not an electric field.

When a coil is operating at "natural resonance" frequency then large e field manifests 90 degrees out of phase to B field, the energy component of each being equal. The e field is formed across the coils own parasitic capacitance.

To measure the natural resonance of a coil, power across it with a very high impedance source (100K carbon in series with signal generator) then plug a near field probe into scope. Lay the probe a foot away from the coil.

A nearfield H probe is easy to make:
« Last Edit: 2010-07-25, 23:34:30 by Fraser »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #28 on: 2010-07-25, 23:55:42 »
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Grumpy:

Quote
So, the coil also "discharge faster' with 8 parallel wires rather than a single very long wire.  Does this make the output pulse rise faster?  If so, that may be the reason to use it.

It does make the output pulse rise faster.  But perhaps it would be better to say that you "hit" the charging battery with a higher initial current and the duration of the pulse is shorter.  So what's better for a charging battery, a high short pulse or a medium longer pulse?  I don't know the answer to that question.  The only thing that I can assume is that there must be a limit to how hard you can whack a battery with a pulse of current that starts at a very high initial amperage level.  At some point you must be able to "overwhelm" the charging battery and it will start to croak.  You will start to heat the battery instead of charging the battery.  However, I doubt that "extreme" level of current pulsing happens in a typical 10-coiler setup.  You would still want to be careful though.  If you start putting more source batteries in series on the drive side, then you get higher and higher initial charging current levels when the transistors switch off.

Going back to the displacement current, you can think of any circuit as a series of current "loops" and voltage "nodes."  The current flowing through a current loop can be regular current or displacement current, and they will be exactly the same value, all the time.  So in that sense there is no "adding of currents" like you are implying.  My gut feel is that displacement current has been glamourized and mystified among the enthusiasts.  From my perspective there are no "unknown displacement current effects" to wonder about.  So I am taking the Eric Dollard quote with a huge grain of salt.

Quote
If Bedini is somehow able to alter the amount of energy stored in a battery, then how might this be occurring?

Bedini circuits can give you increased battery capacity, but you have to put extra energy into the charging battery to fill up that capacity.  I don't know the answer to your question.  I can only speculate that since the coil can *force* current into a charging battery, and will raise it's output voltage to accomplish this task, that it results in current flowing into less "active" regions of the interior of the battery.  So this "current on a mission" manages to "search out" chemical reagents that are normally "docile" and gets them to reverse the chemical reaction to store more chemical energy.  It's just a wild guess, I know very little about battery chemistry.

Also, if the coil has to raise it's voltage higher to force current into a sulphated battery, that means that the pulse length has to shorten.  There is a fixed amount of energy in every pulse.  You see this when you swap out the charge battery for a capacitor and scope the pulses.  As the cap voltage increases, you can clearly see the pulse duration gets shorter.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #29 on: 2010-07-26, 00:03:46 »
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Fraser:

For the self-resonance of a coil, the stray capacitance can be modeled as a very small capacitor in parallel with the coil.  All of the electric field phenomena are exclusively associated with the stray capacitance.  The inductor is only associated with the magnetic field.  Perhaps Eric Dollard was making reference to these stray capacitive effects in the reference, I don't know.  However, once again, the displacement current associated with the stray capacitance will be equal to the real current flowing in the coil.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #30 on: 2010-07-26, 04:02:09 »
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I am just going to do a quick review about the concept of a current source, output impedance, and a discharging inductor.

I am pretty sure that Ren, other Bedini enthusiasts, some of the 10-coilers that might be lurking, are thrown off by my discussion.  For years they have been talking about voltage spikes coming off of their drive coils and comparing how high the voltages go, etc.  When it comes to Bedini motors, the most interesting thing is how it can produce high voltage spikes that pack a punch, and the assumption is that the charging batteries get charged by the high voltage spikes.  More experienced Bedini experimenters know that when the charging battery is in the circuit, the voltage spikes of several hundred volts are reduced to just a few volts.

Why do the voltage spikes almost disappear?  The answer is because the discharging drive coil is acting like a current source.

Also, something having "infinite output impedance" doesn't seem to make any sense.  I will try to explain this with an example.

An ideal voltage source has a fixed output voltage and an output impedance of zero and it can supply an infinite amount of current.

An ideal current source has a fixed output current and an output impedance of infinity and it can supply an infinite amount of voltage.

You can see the similarity in the above two statements.  So let's discuss this "infinite" impedance thing.

Suppose you have a 10-volt battery and you connect a 10-ohm resistor across it.  You know the current is one amp.  Standard stuff.

Now suppose you have a 1-amp current source and you connect a 10-ohm resistor to it.  You know the voltage across the resistor will be 10 volts.  Both setups would look exactly the same if you used your multimeter to measure the currents and the voltages.

Continued in 2nd posting...
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #31 on: 2010-07-26, 04:07:56 »
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Part 2....

So what's the big deal about the current source and the "infinite" output impedance?

Keep the same second setup but now we are going to swap out the ideal current source with an approximation of one.

What if we did the following:   You swap out the current source for a 1000 volt power supply in series with a a 1k-ohm resistor.  Now the circuit is a 1000 volt power supply in series with a 1k-ohm resistor in series with a 10-ohm resistor.   The current flowing through the circuit will be (1000/(1000+10)) which is 0.990 amps, which is almost 1 amp.

Now what if we swapped out the current source for a 1,000,000 volt power supply in series with a 1-Mohm resistor?  Do the same math and you will find out that  the current is now 0.99999 amps, which is very close to 1 amp.

Supposing you have an imaginary 100,000,000-volt power supply in series with a 100-Mohm resistor connected to the 10-ohm load.  Now the current through the 10-ohm resistor is going to be so close to 1 amp, we will say it is 1 amp.  The voltage across the resistor will be 10 volts.

Now, with the same setup, what happens if we change the 10-ohm resistor for a 20-ohm resistor?  Do the math and you will find that the current is still 1 amp and now of course the voltage is 20 volts.

THAT'S WHAT A CURRENT SOURCE LOOKS LIKE.   You can change the load resistance, and the current through the load DOES NOT change, but the voltage across the load DOES change.

A discharging inductor IS a current source.  This is by definition.

You will also note that a 100-Megaohm output resistance is starting to get close to "infinity."  The idea is that you can keep on increasing the voltage source and the output resistance until you reach the point where the volage source is infinity, the output resistance is infinity, and the current is still one amp.  Hence the notion that a current source has an "infinite" output impedance.  I hope this is making sense to some of you.

See part 3....
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #32 on: 2010-07-26, 04:15:17 »
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Part 3....

What you can also observe is that you can put just about any load resistance (or charging battery) across a current source, and the current flow is essentially unstoppable.  The voltage is variable, in my example above the imaginary current source has 100 million volts of "voltage headroom" that can vary up and down to ensure that a fixed amount of current flows through the load.

And that is the essence of the Bedini motor "high voltage spikes" or "radiant energy."

The drive coils in the motor produce pulses of CURRENT, and the voltage produced is a result of the current pulses.  It DOES NOT MATTER what the the state of the charging battery is.  The input impedance of the charging battery is IRRELEVANT, the drive coils will discharge through the charging battery no matter what.

The final point to make is that the coil's output current will start to decrease as it discharges, just like the voltage across a capacitor will decrease as it discharges.

If you think hard about this and go back and reread the thread it might 'click.'  It is the essence of how a Bedini motor works.  The discharging drive coils act like current sources that pump energy into a target battery.  You are taking advantage of the fact that the current pulses can *force* their way through a charging battery, even if it is highly sulfated.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-07-26, 04:47:35 by MileHigh »
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #33 on: 2010-07-26, 06:07:27 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-25, 23:55:42
Grumpy:

It does make the output pulse rise faster.  But perhaps it would be better to say that you "hit" the charging battery with a higher initial current and the duration of the pulse is shorter.  So what's better for a charging battery, a high short pulse or a medium longer pulse?  I don't know the answer to that question.  The only thing that I can assume is that there must be a limit to how hard you can whack a battery with a pulse of current that starts at a very high initial amperage level.  At some point you must be able to "overwhelm" the charging battery and it will start to croak.  You will start to heat the battery instead of charging the battery.  However, I doubt that "extreme" level of current pulsing happens in a typical 10-coiler setup.  You would still want to be careful though.  If you start putting more source batteries in series on the drive side, then you get higher and higher initial charging current levels when the transistors switch off.

Going back to the displacement current, you can think of any circuit as a series of current "loops" and voltage "nodes."  The current flowing through a current loop can be regular current or displacement current, and they will be exactly the same value, all the time.  So in that sense there is no "adding of currents" like you are implying.  My gut feel is that displacement current has been glamourized and mystified among the enthusiasts.  From my perspective there are no "unknown displacement current effects" to wonder about.  So I am taking the Eric Dollard quote with a huge grain of salt.

Bedini circuits can give you increased battery capacity, but you have to put extra energy into the charging battery to fill up that capacity.  I don't know the answer to your question.  I can only speculate that since the coil can *force* current into a charging battery, and will raise it's output voltage to accomplish this task, that it results in current flowing into less "active" regions of the interior of the battery.  So this "current on a mission" manages to "search out" chemical reagents that are normally "docile" and gets them to reverse the chemical reaction to store more chemical energy.  It's just a wild guess, I know very little about battery chemistry.

Also, if the coil has to raise it's voltage higher to force current into a sulphated battery, that means that the pulse length has to shorten.  There is a fixed amount of energy in every pulse.  You see this when you swap out the charge battery for a capacitor and scope the pulses.  As the cap voltage increases, you can clearly see the pulse duration gets shorter.

MileHigh

Slow down MH.  You are making too many assumptions.  The fact that all of the forms of current are summed to get the total circuit current is undeniably carved in stone in many many electrodynamics texts.  The currents associated with earth and the sun can not be explained without these other currents.  They can not be arbitrarily dismissed. A measure of one form of current does n not imply that you measured the total current.  The only thing wrong with displacement current is that it has been ignored.

Displacement current aside, kinetic energy is associated with the fast rising - accelerating along a wire, this energy is far to fast for the ions of a battery to move with it.  So, where does this energy go?  Do the ions in the electrolyte absorb it?  Does it sort of ripple through the electrolyte and plates, depositing energy in it's path? 

A similar thing happens when you impact excite a coil: it rings.  When you excite the battery, what rings?   You may recall that Tesla stated that the spark gap transmitter was so popular because you could put power in 1000 watts per hour in and pull 5000 watts per hour out (not exact words but same implications).
   
img  Fraser
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #34 on: 2010-07-26, 17:46:11 »
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@milehigh,
At higher frequencies (those present in the sharp knee of a fast rise) then the capacitive element of a coil becomes very apparent, in antenna design the capacitive element of a coil is as strong as the inductive. The capacitance manifests between the coil windings themselves and also between the windings and the environmental ground. Although it is modelled as a seperate entity in sim software it is a very real aspect of all coils operating around frequencies of slef resonance. A core within the coil (ala bedini) will not prevent the high freq. e field action in the coil. A core will not have even started to react by the time the e field disturbance has propogated away from the coil.

I think this e field component of the device must be considered when speculating about it. Might a large virtual dipole manifest in space which is then capable of interfacing with an energy source far outside of the system?

Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-07-26, 06:07:27
Displacement current aside, kinetic energy is associated with the fast rising - accelerating along a wire, this energy is far to fast for the ions of a battery to move with it.  So, where does this energy go?  Do the ions in the electrolyte absorb it?  Does it sort of ripple through the electrolyte and plates, depositing energy in it's path?  
I think the energy in the sharp front of the rise is temporarily stored by the cells intraplate capacitance which is quite a fast capacitor. The stored charge will then force the slower ion transport. When you said "Does it sort of ripple through the electrolyte and plates, depositing energy in it's path?" that pretty much sums up what I think is happening.

perhaps one could model a SLAB by putting a really low ESR RF cap in close parallel with a supercap. then measuring and load testing wauld be really fast to do?
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #35 on: 2010-07-26, 18:22:23 »

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Very interesting claims located at this link:
http://radiant.100free.com/zpe_bedini_solid.html

See "photo #4" where he says that you only need to stack the magnets and the rotor does not have to rotate at all, and that both input and output batteries are charging at the same time.

Has anyone seen the experiment where Bedini lights a red LED by connecting both leads to the plastic case of a battery?

http://radiant.100free.com/zpe_bedini_theory.html
Bedini has pretty much explained that it has nothing to do with BEMF and that it is high voltage impulses without current that charges the batteries and capacitors (he calls it radiant reactive power).

To get the RE effect, all you have to do is apply a HV pulse to a very long coil with a high imepedance.  The RE (it is a "force" not a current or whatever Bedini and Bearden call it) is not what is stored in the battery or capacitor as it only exists during the acceleration of the pulse energy which is during the rise (technically during the fall as well).  Before the current flows the electric wave is longitudinal.  Once curent flows this becomes transverse.   Anyone familiar with a little plasma physics may know of a form do current called "inertia drift" which transfers kinetic energy into EM energy and vice versa.

A couple of years ago, I was working with a DC bias coil wrapped around the coil being pulsed to produce the RE force.  (Tesla also called it a "force" and I take that as the gospel.)  When the bias coil was powered with a DC power supply, the voltage stayed the same.  When the bias coil was power by batteries, the voltage rose slightly when the other coil was being pulsed.  At the time, I just thought that the pulsed coil was coupling with the bias coil and it was a basic transformer effect, and that with the power supply, this was regulated out.  I want to set this back up now and put a load on the battery and see if the increased voltage does anything.

EDIT:
Found some interesting comments by Bedini in this doc: (attached)
« Last Edit: 2010-07-26, 19:32:25 by Grumpy »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #36 on: 2010-07-26, 23:43:21 »
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Grumpy:

Quote
The fact that all of the forms of current are summed to get the total circuit current is undeniably carved in stone in many many electrodynamics texts

What I sad was consistent with your statement above.  I stand by what I said about displacement current.  The term "displacement current" is never used by people that work in electronics.  However if you want to start a thread about displacement current it might be interesting.

Quote
Displacement current aside, kinetic energy is associated with the fast rising - accelerating along a wire, this energy is far to fast for the ions of a battery to move with it.  So, where does this energy go?  Do the ions in the electrolyte absorb it?  Does it sort of ripple through the electrolyte and plates, depositing energy in it's path?

Not sure exactly what you mean here.  What I can say is that when you pulse electrical energy into a battery, some of that energy becomes chemical energy by reversing the chemical reactions, and some becomes waste heat energy.

Quote
A similar thing happens when you impact excite a coil: it rings.  When you excite the battery, what rings?s.

Not sure if you are talking about mechanical or electrical ringing.  Either form of ringing represents the conversion of some mechanical or electrical energy into heat energy.  I don't think anything rings in a battery.

Fraser:

Sure coils can self resonate but I am more interested in what the coils are doing in the 10-coil Bedini motor.  It doesn't make much sense to model a SLAB with a combination of capacitors, they are different animals.

A more realistic model for a battery would be an ideal voltage source in series with a series resistor, where the series resistor represents the output impedance of the battery.  In this day and age with so much computing power on the desktop, you could probably make the series resistor variable, a function of how much energy there remains in the battery.  This would allow you to see a dip in the battery output voltage as it starts to get more than 90% discharged.

I would like to try to keep this thread on the Bedini 10-coiler topic and Bedini related if possible.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #37 on: 2010-07-27, 00:00:58 »
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Grumpy:

With respect to your links, it's too much to digest.  Just by skimming through it certainly there is a lot of material there alleging over unity effects associated with Bedini motors.  Yet John K. who is associated with Bedini definitively states that a Bedini motor is not an over unity device.

So let me ask you, what do you think a Bedini motor/charger is?  Is it an under unity device that just manages to let you charge a battery with more ampere-hours of energy, or is is something entirely different that leverages effects associated with high voltage spikes without any real current which tends to imply over unity?  Or something else?

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #38 on: 2010-07-27, 00:29:05 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-27, 00:00:58
Grumpy:

With respect to your links, it's too much to digest.  Just by skimming through it certainly there is a lot of material there alleging over unity effects associated with Bedini motors.  Yet John K. who is associated with Bedini definitively states that a Bedini motor is not an over unity device.

So let me ask you, what do you think a Bedini motor/charger is?  Is it an under unity device that just manages to let you charge a battery with more ampere-hours of energy, or is is something entirely different that leverages effects associated with high voltage spikes without any real current which tends to imply over unity?  Or something else?

MileHigh

Well, Bedini also states repeatedly that it is not overunity or free electricity charging the batteries and capacitors.  These terms are subjective and if you get an energy surplus, then something different is going on.  The burning question is: do his devices produce an energy surplus?

I'm not totally convinced that he is applying the radiant electric effect as he claims.  It is my understanding that this requires hv pulses over about 1.5kv (preferably much higher) into a coil of high impedance, and this is just for the radiant force.  I am also a little perplexed as to why Bedini has not moved away from batteries to direct conversion of the radiant force into conduction current.  Maybe he does, but doesn't show it, or is happy with batteries.
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #39 on: 2010-07-27, 01:06:50 »
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Grumpy:

If any 10-coilers contribute to the thread perhaps some more light will get shed on this topic.

I know that what I posted yesterday seems to be coming out of left field, using terminology that nobody ever uses and such.  One thing that I did not really elaborate on is that what I said explains all of the spike phenomena associated with Bedini motors from A to Z.  Plus this stuff is all measurable, like how much energy there is in a single spike, and a myriad of other measurements.  I have read a fair amount about Bedini motors so it's interesting to give a new perspective.  With a willing 10-coiler participant, the full energy audit trail for their Bedini motor could be determined if they were willing to run some tests.  I am not going to hold my breath for that though!

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #40 on: 2010-07-27, 02:08:43 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-27, 01:06:50
Grumpy:

If any 10-coilers contribute to the thread perhaps some more light will get shed on this topic.

I know that what I posted yesterday seems to be coming out of left field, using terminology that nobody ever uses and such.  One thing that I did not really elaborate on is that what I said explains all of the spike phenomena associated with Bedini motors from A to Z.  Plus this stuff is all measurable, like how much energy there is in a single spike, and a myriad of other measurements.  I have read a fair amount about Bedini motors so it's interesting to give a new perspective.  With a willing 10-coiler participant, the full energy audit trail for their Bedini motor could be determined if they were willing to run some tests.  I am not going to hold my breath for that though!

MileHigh

Can you explain the following?:

When I pulse an air-core coil of high impedance (at least 1000 feet of #28 wire, inductance is about 200 millihenry (give or take  as I recall) ) the coil mass will attract metal objects such as pieces of wire and foil.  Attraction is one direction and does not reverse.  The attractive force is only present when the coil is pulsed with about 2kvDC or more.  The same coil will also attract dielectric materials to a lesser degree.

With the same coil setup, I can draw an arc off the coil to an insulated metal object.  These arcs are very thin an wispy, up to a little over 1/2 inch.

Another thing is that Bedini reportedly has given demonstration where he lights an LED by touching both leads to the plastic case of a battery.  How can he do this without polarization current in the plastic battery case?

(I'll keep looking at Bedini's writings and experiments and see if I can find more of the things that signify RE.)
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #41 on: 2010-07-27, 02:35:29 »
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Hi Grumpy:

I'll try to answer but also clarify some of the concepts.  Please be patient with that.  Also without schematics or pictures my comments may be way off.

The impedance of all coils is dependent on the inductance and the frequency, and "frequency" means that you put a pure sine wave into the coil, not a square wave.  The impedance goes up as the frequency increases.

Unless I am missing something, you are basically turning your coil into an electromagnet, hence the attraction.  Perhaps the high DC pulse rate gets some pure DC current flowing through the coil.

1/2 inch arcs means you are generating about 40,000 volts.  Air will break down and start to conduct when the voltage is about 20,000 volts per centimeter.  Chances are the arcs can land on the insulated metal object because when the voltage is that high the insulator doesn't look so insulating any more.

I can't really comment on the Bedini LED demo.  However you probably have seen dozens and dozens of clips on YouTube where people play with a car ignition coil and excite it at a high frequency.  They put the "hot" side of the coil to ground (if I recall correctly) and then the entire setup becomes hot with very high frequency AC.  You can touch an LED to anything on the setup and it will light up.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #42 on: 2010-07-27, 03:32:51 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-27, 02:35:29
Hi Grumpy:

I'll try to answer but also clarify some of the concepts.  Please be patient with that.  Also without schematics or pictures my comments may be way off.

The impedance of all coils is dependent on the inductance and the frequency, and "frequency" means that you put a pure sine wave into the coil, not a square wave.  The impedance goes up as the frequency increases.

Unless I am missing something, you are basically turning your coil into an electromagnet, hence the attraction.  Perhaps the high DC pulse rate gets some pure DC current flowing through the coil.

1/2 inch arcs means you are generating about 40,000 volts.  Air will break down and start to conduct when the voltage is about 20,000 volts per centimeter.  Chances are the arcs can land on the insulated metal object because when the voltage is that high the insulator doesn't look so insulating any more.

I can't really comment on the Bedini LED demo.  However you probably have seen dozens and dozens of clips on YouTube where people play with a car ignition coil and excite it at a high frequency.  They put the "hot" side of the coil to ground (if I recall correctly) and then the entire setup becomes hot with very high frequency AC.  You can touch an LED to anything on the setup and it will light up.

MileHigh

The coil is aircore, pulses are a few nanoseconds long through a spark gap pulser running at 10kv.  I think the impedance is very high in regards to these pulses.   A compass will point perpendicular to the coil in all positions (I believe this occurs because the compass is conductive).  Attraction is to any conductive object regardless of the material - even aluminum, copper, copper, brass, and graphite (pencil lead).

The initial field formed in response to the pulse is longitudinal.  Perhaps the electrons bulge out or their mass changes as the energy excites them.

This may be evidence of some sort of force.

I thought about Bedini lighting LEDs with RF, but I can not see how he lit it by touching boths leads to a plastic battery case.

I'll look for some other "Bedini anomolies" and try to bring the discussion back to the 10-coiler.
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #43 on: 2010-07-27, 23:07:14 »

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I started another thread specifically for charging capacitors and batteries with RE and will continue my work over there and leave this thread for 10-coil discussion.

Good luck to all the 10-coilers.
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #44 on: 2010-07-27, 23:13:01 »
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Grumpy:

In my book there are no Bedini anomalies but I would be willing to entertain suggestions.

Here is a simple explanation of a Bedini motor:  A battery connects to a coil through a switch.  When the switch is on current starts to flow though the coil.  When the switch switches off the coil discharges through a diode into a charging battery. The initial discharge current level is the same as the amount of current that was flowing through the coil at the instant the battery switched off.   The coil pumps current into the battery until it runs out of gas.  The nominal charging battery voltage might be 12.6 volts and when the current pulse hits it it might go up to 13 or 14 volts.

Now, how can we make this seem to be more interesting?

Supposing that we replace the charging battery with a 1-Kohm resistor.   Let's also suppose that when the transistor switches off there is 1 amp of current flowing through the coil.

This configuration will produce a very brief 1000-volt voltage spike.

The coil's inductance, core, number of turns, wire gauge doesn't matter.  Any coil with the same initial current flow condition will produce a 1000-volt voltage spike.

On the Energetic Forum there is an off-shoot thread from the 10-coiler thread called "Zooming in on Bedini's Radiant Spike."  They don't get it, they don't understand the fundamental mechanism behind how the spike is produced.  I have tried to explain it in this thread.

Any wayward souls from the Energetic Forum are welcome to come here and have a meaningful discussion.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #45 on: 2010-07-27, 23:44:31 »

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MH,

If Bedini used the collapse of an inductor to produce a HV spike and then excited another coil with this spike, then the method of producing RE would make sense.  However, he doesn't do that.  I also do not agree that the RE precedes the spike on the scope.  It is electric, time-dependent, and occurs during the rise of the spike on the scope, provided the right conditions are provided, else you just get a pulse. 

The RE effect comes out of the mass of the coil and it does not go back into the coil, so how can a collapsing magnetic field in a coil produce RE to go to the battery or cap?  Also, Bedini states that he stores the RE in a capacitor.  RE is a time dependent force. It can not be stored in a system that is not changing.  You can store charge that RE induced in a capacitor, but you can not store RE in a capacitor.  Lastly, I do not thing RE can be produced in a battery by impulse charging the battery, but I've never tried to produce RE in a battery or even thought about it as I doubt the impedance is high enough and the pulse will go straight through the battery and do almost nothing.
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #46 on: 2010-07-28, 05:19:44 »
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Grumpy:

There is a serious test that anyone can try to perform in a myriad of ways.  Is the energy in the pulse output from a coil equal to, leaser than, or greater than the amount of energy you put into the coil in the first place?

If you can prove that it's always equal to or lesser than the energy you put into it in the first place, then where are you with respect to radiant energy?

It turns out that coils have their equivalent in the real physical world.  It's happening around you everywhere you look but you might not realize it.

You have a cart on wheels loaded down with something heavy.  You walk up to it and start to push on it.  The cart starts to move.  Then the cart crashes into a wall and stops.  Was there any evidence of free energy in the action you performed?  I think your common sense would tell you that that was not the case.  You know that it was your pushing on the heavy cart that resulted in the cart crashing into the wall.

In this example the heavy cart is acting exactly like a coil.  And I mean really exactly, in every possible way you can examine the situation.

So there is some food for thought for you and the Bedini crowd.  Where are the spikes really coming from?  Are you stressing the aether and creating an imbalance that bounces back with more energy, or are the spikes really coming from the battery?

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #47 on: 2010-07-28, 05:30:24 »

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RE is just a force.

How you use that force to produce a conduction current is the tricky part.
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #48 on: 2010-07-30, 00:03:05 »
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Well, this thread is not attracting the 10-coilers, at least not yet...

John K may not be coming back, too bad.  His main point, that "mostly voltage charges the battery and no real current" is what most, if not all Bedini enthusiasts believe.

It's not good enough to believe this just because the "crowd" says so.  The premise does not make any sense.  The logical thing to do is make an estimate of the total energy put out by the discharging coils and then measure how much energy you can get from the charging battery with load testing.  In six months of discussion on the Energetic Forum 10-coiler thread, this fundamental test has never even been mentioned.

Battery voltage measurements mean nothing, it's worth stating again and again.

Ren also is gone.  That Bedini EFTV discussion where he mentions that Bedini says the pendulum oscillator works best with an impedance match with the battery is wrong.  Like I said before, there is no impedance matching going on here, at all.

Ren if you disagree, you are welcome to come back and discuss it some more.

There is a huge "run away" phenomenon that happens in these circles.  For example, Bedini enthusiasts hear some things that could put cracks in the the whole "belief system" so the reaction is to block you or simply run away.  It's really unfortunate, because the truth is the most important thing.

Anyway, if there is no traction getting some discussions going with 10-coiler (or other) Bedini experimenters, then I may be tempted to dissect the 10-coiler thread and rebut it point by point.

The people that dropped $4000 USD on the Bedini 10-coiler are beginners in electronics at best.  The reality appears to be that they built the things, watched them spin, and now they are stuck, they don't know what to do.  In the six months worth of discussion, nobody has done a serious scientific investigation with their rig with the exception of Preston Stroud.  At least Preston did some swapping back and forth.  He clearly indicates that he bought the system with an expectation of seeing energy gains, notwithstanding what John K said, and has so far got nothing.

The truth is out there...

MileHigh
   
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Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #49 on: 2010-07-30, 00:55:55 »

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Batteries require a current to charge - period.  A current is a flow of charges in opposite directions.  Wether you induce this current by conventional means or by using a force field, it is still a current.  I'd bet that the force field method takes a lot less energy than conventional methods.

Rather than spend $4k on the 10-coiler, they could have built a tetrahedral device posted by "spherics" on OU.  They would have learned more and spent less - even if they never got it work.
   
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