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Author Topic: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion (Read 72917 times)

MileHigh	Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « on: 2010-07-22, 01:19:54 »
Group: Guest	Hello to the Bedini 10-coiler experimenters and others: I read the entire Energetic Forum Bedini 10-coil thread and I am setting up this "alternative" thread to discuss the project. I invite all of the 10-coiler experimenters to come here if you want to chat and discuss. There are a lot of good points and not so good points in the original thread. Some concepts could use some clarification and more discussion. There are also a lot of misconceptions out there, connecting a solar panel to a Bedini motor to extract more energy out of the solar panel is the first one that comes to mind. So perhaps some of the prevalent misconceptions could be discussed and clarified. This will make your research much more fruitful and productive. I understand that Rick who sold you the kits offers no technical support. For starters, I suppose the question for all of the builders is what tests or project goals do you have in mind? Perhaps you would like some advice on testing methods or would like to discuss how to actually achieve your project goals. I know a lot of you have invested a lot of time and money in the 10-coiler, so the idea is to hopefully help you get more out of your research. MileHigh « Last Edit: 2010-07-22, 02:08:51 by MileHigh »

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #1 on: 2010-07-22, 02:04:22 »
Group: Guest	Here is an interesting quote from a Bedini-related thread on the Energetic Forum: Quote Certainly the SG or Simplified SG are not claimed Overunity by the Bedini himself, you can search on energeticforum Jonh Bedini user and read it. Incredibly when you play the EFTV DVD's others words are used, explicitly on DVD #2 : "...first time in the history free and unlimited energy supply". Bedini shows the famous big SG 10 coils connecting 1200 watts incandescent lamps to the secondary batteries, and finally shows a Pendulum seems OU but he speaks a little about it. I know from reading the thread that there is a lot of excitement about the EFTV claim about the 10-coiler. So some of you bought the kits and want to explore and see for yourselves and have a lot of fun in the process. If working together we can offer some guidance and suggestions perhaps you can reach your goals more quickly. MileHigh

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #2 on: 2010-07-23, 01:28:49 »
Group: Guest	So everybody is interested in coils. Inductors are very similar to capacitors in many ways, and the two devices compliment each other like Yin and Yang. This YouTuber does not play with back-EMF spikes, but man oh man does he know his coils. He also has a series of clips that teach some basic electronics. He repairs old radios and he is brilliant. The YouTube channel is "AllAmericanFiveRadio" and I highly recommend his clips to anybody interested in electronics. http://www.youtube.com/user/AllAmericanFiveRadio Even the Bedini crowd would get a lot out of watching his clips. MileHigh

John_K	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #3 on: 2010-07-23, 02:28:01 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-22, 01:19:54 Hello to the Bedini 10-coiler experimenters and others: I read the entire Energetic Forum Bedini 10-coil thread and I am setting up this "alternative" thread to discuss the project. I invite all of the 10-coiler experimenters to come here if you want to chat and discuss. There are a lot of good points and not so good points in the original thread. Some concepts could use some clarification and more discussion. There are also a lot of misconceptions out there, connecting a solar panel to a Bedini motor to extract more energy out of the solar panel is the first one that comes to mind. So perhaps some of the prevalent misconceptions could be discussed and clarified. This will make your research much more fruitful and productive. I understand that Rick who sold you the kits offers no technical support. For starters, I suppose the question for all of the builders is what tests or project goals do you have in mind? Perhaps you would like some advice on testing methods or would like to discuss how to actually achieve your project goals. I know a lot of you have invested a lot of time and money in the 10-coiler, so the idea is to hopefully help you get more out of your research. MileHigh Hi MileHigh, Thanks for inviting me to this forum. First of all, since I'm a newbie here I would like to introduce myself a bit. I have been researching Bedini technology for the last 3 years or so. I have successfully replicated most of Bedini's devices that he has placed in the public domain. I am also a moderator of the Bedini groups on Yahoo! and have also set up a business to distribute Bedini's commercial products in Australia. I am also an authorized dealer for some of the Bedini kits that Rick offers for sale, including the 10-coiler. I was fortunate enough to spend a few days with John, Gary and Rick and found them all to be very good hard working people and I remain close friends with them to this day. Before I respond to your post I should mention that the only browser I have been able to use on this forum is Firefox for PC. I could not navigate or respond using IE or Safari for PC. You may want to look into that. OK, onto the response. I'd like to understand why you have started off a new forum to discuss the Bedini 10-coiler kit, when the forum on Energetic Forum seems to be covering it well enough? I'm not sure if you have posted on that forum under another another name, but if not, why not just post your comments and goals there? Like myself who is a member of many forums on the Internet, why should people join this forum as well? I'm not trying to discourage your motives, just trying to understand them better. Although I do not own a 10-coiler kit, I recently had the privilege to spend a day with someone who does. I found the machine to be extremely well built and pretty easy to work with, for those that already have a good understanding of how a multi-coil, multi-strand Bedini SSG Monopole Energizer works. I disagree with your statement that Rick does not offer any technical support for the 10-coiler as this could not be further from the truth. I know whenever I have asked for technical support, Rick has been very helpful. I also know of several people that have received very good support from Rick as well. Rick does make it very clear that the 10-coiler is an experimental kit that is for research purposes. He makes no claims except that it is designed to charge a large bank of batteries. It is up to the individual experimenter to decide what they would like to achieve from the kit and in which direction they would like to go with it. He also recommends that the experimenter should develop a good understanding of how the Bedini SSG Monopole Energizer works before deciding to build or replicate some of the advanced Bedini designs. In reference to your second post on this thread, I would like to clarify that John Bedini has stated many times that NONE of the devices that he has placed in the public domain are over-unity devices. The SSG Monopole Energizer in particular, is a device that creates a high voltage "spike", which is caused by the collapsing field of an electromagnet, which it then sends to the charging battery. It is how the battery responds to the spike which charges the battery and in many cases will charge a battery that can no longer be charged by a conventional charger. It is the repetition of this process that shows gains in the amount of energy that the battery can provide when it is loaded. This is what many experimenters fail to understand and the main reason why a lot people fail to get the results they expected. As for connecting solar panels as a power source for the Bedini SSG Monopole Energizer, there should not be any misconceptions either. The Bedini SSG Monopole Energizer works great with solar panels. It does not extract more energy from the solar panels, but it USES all of the available energy, as the device is able operate on less than 1 volt and still charge any battery with a higher voltage than the solar panel is putting out. Whereas, traditional methods of using solar panels are designed in a way that the solar panel must put out at least 2 volts higher than the battery being charged for the battery to charge at all. Therefore, the device is able to charge batteries in low light conditions, such as cloudy days, shade and even moon light. Once again, I am not trying to discourage you from starting a new forum to discuss the Bedini 10-coiler kit. I am simply re-iterating what John has already stated in the public domain for years and to clarify or help people understand this technology. One simply has to do their research and prove it to themselves on the bench and then draw their own conclusions. You also need to have an open mind as some of the technology is far different to what is conventionally taught in schools and universities. But you also have to obey the golden rule, which is to build the devices EXACTLY how John Bedini has told you how to. Once you have done this and have a sound understanding of the principles involved, you can then make changes and advancements. I wish you all the best in your experiments... John K.

poynt99	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #4 on: 2010-07-23, 04:39:37 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	John, Welcome to OUR forum. It may not always be apparent, but EF is most often not tolerant nor sympathetic towards folks that ask the hard questions. Several from here have been banned from EF for doing just that, and in a respectful manner. I myself was not banned, but after declaring I would not post there anymore, they deleted my account. Speaking from experience, IMHO EF is far from fair, nor are they interested in the raw truth. This probably explains why MH (and many others) does not post there in your threads. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #5 on: 2010-07-23, 04:40:12 »
Group: Guest	Hi John, Welcome to the forum. I will try to respond briefly to your points. Sorry, but I won't pull up links to posts in the EF thread because it's too much work. The material in the thread is fresh in my mind I read it just a few days ago. I am an exile from the EF. I was involved in the Ainslie thread on the EF and OU. Towards the end of the archived Ainslie thread I was booted off by Aaron. Lots of emotions were running high and that's just the way it is. Some people on this forum are voluntary or involuntary exiles from the other forums. My main motive is to help the experimenters achieve whatever they are trying to achieve. It can be fun doing that. It's arguable as to whether the main forum is covering the subject matter well enough. Time will tell if this forum covers new ground as compared to the EF forum. The first big red flag is that everybody is talking about their battery voltage measurements to gauge performance. That's really not the way to go, and hopefully it can be discussed in more detail with the experimenters. In the thread there is at least one or possibly more definitive statements that Rick will not answer any emails with respect to the technical aspects of the device. Someone stated that only emails about parts, delivery dates, etc, will be answered and technical emails are not answered. Again, I don't have the stamina to give links. I could do browser string searches on the thread and find the references if I really wanted to. For the claims about the device I did a copy/paste from the EF that references a claim about free energy from the 10-coiler on a John Bedini EFTV DVD. I haven't seen the DVD myself, I am just quoting someone else. Perhaps someone else can confirm or deny this that has seen the #2 DVD. In the thread there are several references by the participants about "scaling up to the 10-coiler" to achieve over unity. These are the impressions expressed by the participants and it is clear that several of them have this expectation. I am just telling you what I read. Of course the battery charging is discussed also. I agree with you that the claim about being able to get a battery to store more energy is a reasonable claim that has nothing to do with free energy. As a challenge to the Bedini 10-coilers and other Bedini experimenters, it would be interesting to see an "A-B" type of experiment done where you compare how two new identical batteries perform, one conventionally charged and one charged with inductive current spikes. Honestly over the years of reading about Bedini charging, I don't think I can recall this simple test being done by a third party. With respect to solar panels, your statements about being able to exploit the low solar panel output voltages in low light and still charge a battery are true. I was actually thinking about something completely different. What I was thinking about was extracting the maximum available power from the solar panel and have that maximum available power be available to power the Bedini motor. That's a different issue, and my impression is that's what the 10-coiler experimenter's are expecting. I could be be wrong. That's a whole different ball game and is very difficult to do. What is probably a hot-button issue is whether this is unconventional technology that is not taught in universities, or not. That would be part of the investigations if the experimenters decide they want to go down that path. Certainly another hot-button issue is whether or not you need to do an EXACT copy with respect to magnet spacings and dimensions and a host of other parameters. That can be part of the discussion also. If you want to keep an open mind, even these points have to be opened up for debate. So I will finish off by posing a question to the 10-coiler experimenters: You normally think of the standard Bedini main firing coil as being single-strand. In the 10-coiler each of the 9 main firing coils is 8-filer, a.k.a. eight strands each one with a switching transistor and a diode. (Or perhaps was it 10 strands per coil in Rick's kit?) Note that one of the 10 coils is the pick-up coil for doing the transistor switching timing. So why was this design choice made? What are the implications when you go from one wire to eight separate wires for each main firing coil? How will this affect some of your other design choices? MileHigh

John_K	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #6 on: 2010-07-23, 05:25:56 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-07-23, 04:39:37 John, Welcome to OUR forum. It may not always be apparent, but EF is most often not tolerant nor sympathetic towards folks that ask the hard questions. Several from here have been banned from EF for doing just that, and in a respectful manner. I myself was not banned, but after declaring I would not post there anymore, they deleted my account. Speaking from experience, IMHO EF is far from fair, nor are they interested in the raw truth. This probably explains why MH (and many others) does not post there in your threads. .99 .99, Thanks for sharing your experience. I haven't experienced the same at EF though. John K.

John_K	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #7 on: 2010-07-23, 05:55:27 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-23, 04:40:12 Hi John, Welcome to the forum. I will try to respond briefly to your points. Sorry, but I won't pull up links to posts in the EF thread because it's too much work. The material in the thread is fresh in my mind I read it just a few days ago. I am an exile from the EF. I was involved in the Ainslie thread on the EF and OU. Towards the end of the archived Ainslie thread I was booted off by Aaron. Lots of emotions were running high and that's just the way it is. Some people on this forum are voluntary or involuntary exiles from the other forums. My main motive is to help the experimenters achieve whatever they are trying to achieve. It can be fun doing that. It's arguable as to whether the main forum is covering the subject matter well enough. Time will tell if this forum covers new ground as compared to the EF forum. The first big red flag is that everybody is talking about their battery voltage measurements to gauge performance. That's really not the way to go, and hopefully it can be discussed in more detail with the experimenters. In the thread there is at least one or possibly more definitive statements that Rick will not answer any emails with respect to the technical aspects of the device. Someone stated that only emails about parts, delivery dates, etc, will be answered and technical emails are not answered. Again, I don't have the stamina to give links. I could do browser string searches on the thread and find the references if I really wanted to. For the claims about the device I did a copy/paste from the EF that references a claim about free energy from the 10-coiler on a John Bedini EFTV DVD. I haven't seen the DVD myself, I am just quoting someone else. Perhaps someone else can confirm or deny this that has seen the #2 DVD. In the thread there are several references by the participants about "scaling up to the 10-coiler" to achieve over unity. These are the impressions expressed by the participants and it is clear that several of them have this expectation. I am just telling you what I read. Of course the battery charging is discussed also. I agree with you that the claim about being able to get a battery to store more energy is a reasonable claim that has nothing to do with free energy. As a challenge to the Bedini 10-coilers and other Bedini experimenters, it would be interesting to see an "A-B" type of experiment done where you compare how two new identical batteries perform, one conventionally charged and one charged with inductive current spikes. Honestly over the years of reading about Bedini charging, I don't think I can recall this simple test being done by a third party. With respect to solar panels, your statements about being able to exploit the low solar panel output voltages in low light and still charge a battery are true. I was actually thinking about something completely different. What I was thinking about was extracting the maximum available power from the solar panel and have that maximum available power be available to power the Bedini motor. That's a different issue, and my impression is that's what the 10-coiler experimenter's are expecting. I could be be wrong. That's a whole different ball game and is very difficult to do. What is probably a hot-button issue is whether this is unconventional technology that is not taught in universities, or not. That would be part of the investigations if the experimenters decide they want to go down that path. Certainly another hot-button issue is whether or not you need to do an EXACT copy with respect to magnet spacings and dimensions and a host of other parameters. That can be part of the discussion also. If you want to keep an open mind, even these points have to be opened up for debate. So I will finish off by posing a question to the 10-coiler experimenters: You normally think of the standard Bedini main firing coil as being single-strand. In the 10-coiler each of the 9 main firing coils is 8-filer, a.k.a. eight strands each one with a switching transistor and a diode. (Or perhaps was it 10 strands per coil in Rick's kit?) Note that one of the 10 coils is the pick-up coil for doing the transistor switching timing. So why was this design choice made? What are the implications when you go from one wire to eight separate wires for each main firing coil? How will this affect some of your other design choices? MileHigh Hi MileHigh, Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I agree with most of what you posted, and I'm not here to argue - just state the facts as I see them from my own experiences. Thanks also for sharing your motives, it looks like they are similar to my own. I can understand your reason for starting your thread here. And yes, as long as it's fun I'll keep doing it. I totally agree that battery voltage is not a true indication of a battery's capacity. Only a controlled load test can tell how much energy you can get out of it. IMHO, the battery voltage can only be used as and indicator of when to stop charging or loading before you permanently ruin the battery. Rick is a very busy guy and some people are not patient or persistent enough. I live in Australia so it's harder for me contact him by phone because of the time difference. I know Rick well enough that if I need something answered I may have to try and contact him a few times before I get hold of him, either by email or phone. I respect that he is also a family man and restrict my contact with him to his business hours. If Rick spent his whole day answering emails and phone calls, he would never get anything done and we would not have John's chargers on the market or any kits to buy if we wanted to. The people that think by "scaling up to a 10-coiler to achieve over-unity" do not understand how the machine works or have the wrong impression on how it works. If they understood that they could achieve similar results with a single coil, single transistor SSG then they would know what to expect from the 10 coiler. However, from my experiments I can say that scaling up does have benefits, but the "free-energy" is still in the battery and only if you use good batteries. As you scale up the performance increases in a non-linear or logarithmic way, that is that the batteries charge faster and the primary lasts longer. But, let me repeat, the 10-coiler is NOT an over-unity machine. I have done a the simple comparison test that you mentioned and my results were as claimed. I was able to prove that the Bedini SSG did improve the battery capacity whereas the conventionally charged battery did not. My experiment was done with two new batteries exactly the same, with the same date stamp. I have some more to add, but don't have the time right now. I wrote a response on the EF yesterday that outlines the reason why Rick's kit is not an EXACT copy of John original 10 coiler which I'm happy to post here when I have some time. John K.

poynt99	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #8 on: 2010-07-23, 13:54:50 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: John_K on 2010-07-23, 05:25:56 .99, Thanks for sharing your experience. I haven't experienced the same at EF though. John K. Indeed, I'm aware of that. There are two distinct groups on forums such as EF and OU. One is welcomed and encouraged to post, while the other is not. It's an interesting dynamic of human behaviour that unfortunately can lead to unproductive research and wasted funds. Check the name of this forum.....obviously I'm hopeful we will find OU one day soon, but what I see at most forums, is they are fraught with members who have little to no knowledge of the field they are researching, while simultaneously exhibiting the strong tendency to jump to unsubstantiated conclusions about the devices they are working on. Even worse, are the members that do indeed possess a solid understanding of their field yet still succumb to erroneous premature conclusions regarding the performance of their devices. Most lack the required knowledge to perform stringent testing and the reasons for it. There is a huge element of objectivity missing in these forums, but unfortunately, not many see this. One of the goals of OUR forum is to help keep folks on level ground, and it is the expectation of this forum that all experimenters provide proper evidence to substantiate any claims. You may be interested in reading the guidelines of this forum for a bit more elaboration on this. Cheers, .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #9 on: 2010-07-23, 14:45:29 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	I know this thread is for 10-coil discussion, but can someone direct me to Bedini's Solid State schematic and is there any explanation for what occurs inside a battery charged by Bedini's devices the accounts for the differences?

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #10 on: 2010-07-24, 00:37:30 »
Group: Guest	Hi John, To respond to the improved charge that the battery can get: If this is the main advantage associated with charging a battery with current pulses from an inductor then it would seem that the logical configuration for a Bedini setup would be a mains-fed power supply connected to the Bedini motor connected to a charging battery. There is no point in having a source battery. Yet in the Bedini culture there is almost always a source battery charging a charging battery, and everybody swaps batteries back and forth and a lot of them believe that they can get extra energy like this. Part of the "folklore" if you will is that one battery can fully recharge four flat batteries, and then you can set up a round-robin battery rotation system and get free energy. I am not alleging that you said this! It's simply something I have read dozens of time. Going back to dropping the source battery, you can take that argument even further and simply drop the spinning motor entirely and do the whole thing "solid state." i.e.; This goes back to the description of a Bedini motor as a "mechanical oscillator." For a few dollars you can use a 555-based pulse generator or similar circuit and loose all of the magnets and the rotor and the bearings. Anyway, I am just drawing some logical conclusions, I am not arguing with you. This is also getting off topic. There are people out there with the 10-coiler right now that want to work with it and the offer in my first post still stands. I have a feeling some of them are lurking, let's hope some join and we get a good discussion going. One quick comment about the EF thread is that no one at this point has discussed doing battery load testing to make some measurements. Hopefully some of them are at the point where they want to take that step. Doing battery load testing is not trivial and I am tempted to dig up some hard core posts that I made about this issue on the Ainslie thread for the benefit of the experimenters. It might be too much work to find those posts unfortunately. Certainly they can cook up their own methodology, but it would be good for everybody if it was discussed ahead of time. MileHigh

John_K	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #11 on: 2010-07-24, 05:11:29 »
Group: Guest	Hi MileHigh, OK, let's quickly go over why the battery charges, IMO anyways. I don't agree that we are charging with current pulses, or to put it another way - pulses of Amperes. I believe what is causing the battery to charge is the difference in potential between the high voltage pulses that are created when the coil collapses and the low voltage of the battery. It's the difference in potential, not current - although admittedly some current does get through to the battery, but that is not what is mainly charging it. I also have to disagree (not argue, but respectfully disagree) that there is no point in having a source battery. From my tests and similar tests done by others, it IS possible to charge more than one battery before the same sized source battery goes flat. This is not theory, it has been demonstrated on the bench. Admittedly, I personally have yet to charge 4 batteries from one source battery but I know it can be done. However, one thing you cannot do with the SSG circuit is rotate the source and the charge batteries around, without first "converting" the energy from one form into the other. No one really knows why, but the SSG does not like being run with the same energy that it produces. Yes, you can also do solid state and there are some advantages of doing this but I have also found from my experiments that the "mechanical oscillator" is a far better and more efficient charger than the solid state version. I am also a BIG supporter of load testing to find out how good or bad a particular set up is. I have done thousands of hours of load testing and have the data to prove it. I don't think people do enough of it and they tend to rely more on what their meters are telling them than bothering to perform 30 or 40 cycles of a load test. I wonder how many people out there have built a COP>1 machine but didn't test it properly to see? I have found that meters lie, they cannot measure the capacity of a battery. Only load testing can do that. I do know of a couple of 10-coiler owners that are using the machine for practical purposes as well. One guy I know is going to run his 10-coiler off solar panels and then power his house from the charging batteries. I'm planning on doing the same. I already power my lab with Bedini charged batteries and only use the grid to run my Renaissance Charge chargers. The battery bank gets better every time I charge it and the batteries are taking less time to charge. OK, it's not off the grid - but it is a practical way to use the technology. Anyway, good conversing with you. I think we're reading out of the same book. I'd also like to see some others start posting here. John K.

Fraser	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #12 on: 2010-07-24, 11:19:16 »
Group: Guest	Hello all, and welcome to the forum John. I just thought I'd mention the thought of using very small 12V SLABs for load testing purposes, this would of course make the process alot faster. I will be very interested to see AH load test results on batteries charged with these type of systems. RE. The 8 strand firing coils, I think this would improve the high frequency response of the coil like Litz wire. « Last Edit: 2010-07-24, 16:43:40 by Fraser »

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #13 on: 2010-07-24, 16:40:47 »
Group: Guest	John: Quote OK, let's quickly go over why the battery charges, IMO anyways. I don't agree that we are charging with current pulses, or to put it another way - pulses of Amperes. I believe what is causing the battery to charge is the difference in potential between the high voltage pulses that are created when the coil collapses and the low voltage of the battery. It's the difference in potential, not current - although admittedly some current does get through to the battery, but that is not what is mainly charging it. The coil will output current x voltage x time for every time you pulse energy into the battery. So you are looking at a combination of current and voltage. The same thing for a capacitor of course. But if you dig a little bit deeper the basis for the energy storage in an inductor is the flowing current, and for a capacitor it's the voltage. So it's accurate to say that the coil outputs current, and the voltage is a result of the current flow. For a capacitor you can say it outputs voltage and the current flow is a result of the voltage. The "driving" mechanism for an inductor is current, and for a capacitor it is voltage. To put it another way, you can control the output voltage of an inductor at will, but you can't control the initial discharge current. There are some simple tests that can be done to demonstrate this. You can control the output current of a capacitor at will, but you can't control the initial discharge voltage. So the low-level voltage spikes that you can scope on a charging battery are a result of the coil's initial output current. In essence current is being "forced" into the battery, independent of the voltage. An inductor acts as a "current source." People interested in this should look this term up and read all about it to get a foundation for understanding what is going on. Moving on, certainly you can charge four batteries with one battery. The question is how much energy did the source battery output to do this and how much energy is now sitting in each of the four charging batteries. Just to reinforce the point, measuring battery voltages will tell you basically nothing here. All four target charging batteries will be at their "full" voltage when the test is completed. So you need to do load testing. Quote However, one thing you cannot do with the SSG circuit is rotate the source and the charge batteries around, without first "converting" the energy from one form into the other. No one really knows why, but the SSG does not like being run with the same energy that it produces. What do you mean by "converting?" Quote Yes, you can also do solid state and there are some advantages of doing this but I have also found from my experiments that the "mechanical oscillator" is a far better and more efficient charger than the solid state version. Logically I cannot see this being true. The spinning rotor represents energy lost forever as heat energy. You don't have nearly the same energy overhead if you go solid state. However, I am certainly open to seeing some tests done by somebody if they are up to it. Some people might argue (?) that the spinning rotor and the magnets and all of the related effects might have some effect on the charging efficiency. Pretty interesting about people powering their houses with battery banks and solar/Bedini configurations. I think a good first mass-market step would be to use renewable energy for everything in the house except for the biggies, fridge, stove, water heater, air conditioners, etc. All of your domestic lighting and gadget power could be from renewable sources. Of course it requires that your home has two "wiring harnesses" built into it. Certainly it would make a lot of people feel good when they watch TV and aren't on the grid. "ROI" is another issue of course. Fraser: I agree small is better for first testing. There is also a computer-based gizmo for load testing of batteries. It consists of a big power resistor and a transistor to switch it on and off, connected to a computer CPU heat-sink and fan. It's a USB device and about two years ago the YouTube user Marthale7 bought one. For the 8-strand firing coils I am thinking along different lines. Hopefully some of the 10-coilers will chime in on that one. MileHigh

poynt99	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #14 on: 2010-07-24, 17:04:20 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	One aspect of the SSG-type mechanical oscillator, i.e. pulsed rotor, is that it finds it's own resonant frequency. So in effect, it is self-tuning and therefore automatically optimizes the operating point. Not sure if this is what John has experienced, but I've seen mention of this many times before. I'm confident that a SS setup could be tuned to the same (if not better) efficiency as the mechanical one. Regarding the 8-filer coils; certainly inductance will be reduced and the rise/fall times actually increased, but the current in and out of the coils will increase quite a bit (for equal ON-time). The potential kickback voltage is greatly reduced, but available current in the pulse going to the charging battery is magnified accordingly. It's the old series vs. parallel connection thing. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #15 on: 2010-07-24, 20:57:10 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Are the 8-filar coils series or parallel? If parallel, look what this does to the impedance when the coil is discharging. Switching appears much easier for those mechanically inclined with the mechanical versions. All of the switching devices I have been able to find for SS versions are very simple and limited. If anyone has the Eric Dollard book with the title something like "Condensed Intro to Tesla Transformers", in the beginning of this book, Dollard shows a schematic of a Tesla capacitor discharge pulser using a spark gap, and then Steinmetz's version using the collapsing field of a large coil through a commutator. He goes on to state that the end result is equivalent: a high voltage impulse that excites a coil. Dollard goes on to elaborate on how the displacement current in the space outside the coil can rise to astronomical levels. For shits and giggles, let's say that the coils in Bedini devices produce a fair amount of displacement current with their time-dependent pulses. What does this do inside a battery?

szaxx	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #16 on: 2010-07-25, 00:39:20 »
Sr. Member Posts: 276	Hi, As already stated the pulsed output sent to a cap via high speed diodes doesn't match the energy captured by a battery. The battery must have some internal structure or workings that differ. We know most cells do have a crystalline coating on their plates so is this the secret? Old unchargeable batteries come to life if charged by these machines. Nicads with their inherent memory problem can also be 'cleaned' too. Does the piezo electric effect play any part as high voltage pulses are used? Anyone?

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #17 on: 2010-07-25, 00:40:41 »
Group: Guest	Poynt: Yes indeed, but you sure that you weren't too quick in some of your statements? The potential kick-back voltage is increased because of the higher current. Think about it. If the question does not generate any more comments in a week or so I will do a breakdown using rationalized units. Grumpy: The 8-filar wires are in parallel. It doesn't do much to the change impedance value when you compare the two coil configurations. The output impedance of the coil when discharging is very very high, theoretically infinite for both coil setups. This is related to the "current source" concept discussed earlier. It can be discussed in more detail later if people are interested. For the solid state timing system, the easiest way to do this is to cascade two 555 timers together, the first as a free-running oscillator (a.k.a. "bistable multivibrator") and the second as a one-shot (a.k.a. "monostable multivibrator"). The first 555 gives you your pulse frequency and the second 555 gives you your pulse width. It's just two of the most basic 555 circuits connected together in a chain. I'd have to see some diagrams to comment on your example. Can you define "displacement current?" With respect to Bedini coils and regular electric current, the current starts at some initial value when the transistor switches off and then decays to zero. So if the initial current from the energizing coil is one amp, that's the maximum current flow value that goes into the battery. MileHigh

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #18 on: 2010-07-25, 00:54:50 »
Group: Guest	Szaxx: Quote As already stated the pulsed output sent to a cap via high speed diodes doesn't match the energy captured by a battery. You are implying over unity. This was not stated earlier in this thread. In fact John K, who is involved in Bedini systems, says that there is no over unity going on, just the ability to get the batteries to store more energy as compared to conventional charging. However, someone on the Energetic Forum said that in the Energy from the Vacuum #2 DVD, someone says that the 10-coiler is an over unity device. I haven't seen the DVD myself but it would be nice if someone that's seen the DVD can confirm or deny this. MileHigh

Ren	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #19 on: 2010-07-25, 04:19:01 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-07-24, 20:57:10 Are the 8-filar coils series or parallel? If parallel, look what this does to the impedance when the coil is discharging. This is the reason for paralleling the power windings. MileHigh mentioned before that this could be run off a stepdown transformer, and he is right. However it DOES make a difference when it is run off a battery. The impedance of the transformer will more than likely be very different to the impedance of a DC battery. Switching appears much easier for those mechanically inclined with the mechanical versions. All of the switching devices I have been able to find for SS versions are very simple and limited. There are a few different methods John has included in his patents. All of them are fairly common to those already established, the use of a 1:1 feedback winding being the main focus. If anyone has the Eric Dollard book with the title something like "Condensed Intro to Tesla Transformers", in the beginning of this book, Dollard shows a schematic of a Tesla capacitor discharge pulser using a spark gap, and then Steinmetz's version using the collapsing field of a large coil through a commutator. He goes on to state that the end result is equivalent: a high voltage impulse that excites a coil. Dollard goes on to elaborate on how the displacement current in the space outside the coil can rise to astronomical levels.I remember reading somewhere that an inductive discharge has different properties to a capacitive discharge, or at least, there were differences in a spark gap operated device. I'll see if I can find the info. For shits and giggles, let's say that the coils in Bedini devices produce a fair amount of displacement current with their time-dependent pulses. What does this do inside a battery?http://www.icehouse.net/john1/index11.html This page has some info on the chemistry involved. Im not sure if youve seen it before, or if that is what you were after? Regards

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #20 on: 2010-07-25, 15:05:24 »
Group: Guest	Ren: Quote MileHigh mentioned before that this could be run off a stepdown transformer, and he is right. However it DOES make a difference when it is run off a battery. The impedance of the transformer will more than likely be very different to the impedance of a DC battery. Actually your statement is incorrect. The only requirement for the energy supply on the source side is that it have a low output impedance. Both a power supply/transformer and a battery will meet this requirement and either one can power he motor. There is no impedance matching type of relationship between the output impedance of whatever is powering the motor and the input impedance of the charging battery. The drive coil is between the energy supply and the charging battery and this isolates the energy supply and the charging battery from each other. MileHigh « Last Edit: 2010-07-25, 16:19:23 by MileHigh »

poynt99	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #21 on: 2010-07-25, 19:05:16 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-25, 00:40:41 Poynt: Yes indeed, but you sure that you weren't too quick in some of your statements? The potential kick-back voltage is increased because of the higher current. Think about it. If the question does not generate any more comments in a week or so I will do a breakdown using rationalized units. MileHigh Yes that's correct. Sorry. What happens actually with the parallel connection, is the kickback pulse width shortens considerably, while the current available extends much higher than a series connection of the same coils. The kickback voltage is going to be very close in both cases anyway, since the battery load will be limiting it. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #22 on: 2010-07-25, 19:42:31 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	I figured the impedance of 8-filar windings would be lower than the same quantity of wire wound as one coil. MH - aren't you an EE? You should be familiar with displacement current. A refresher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_current Has anyone ever checked the specific gravity of the electrolyte of a Bedini-Charged battery? Is Bedini's pulse charging method different than typical pulse charging methods?

MileHigh	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #23 on: 2010-07-25, 21:53:49 »
Group: Guest	Poynt: The clue for anyone interested in the single-strand coil vs. the parallel 8-filar coil design issue is that as you add more strands to the parallel setup, the inductance of the coil remains the same. So like you said you have a narrower pulse with a higher initial current, and it takes less time to energize the parallel 8-filar coil as compared to the single-strand coil. Like I said I can do a more detailed breakdown on that in a week or so. Grumpy: Thanks for the link for the displacement current. I actually reviewed that a few months ago and forgot about it (again). In a nutshell there is no displacement current to be found in a typical Bedini setup. The classic example for displacement current would be in the space between capacitor plates when there is an AC current flowing through the capacitor. Displacement current is only associated with time varying electric fields. Honesty, I think it would be fair to say that in almost all cases you can completely ignore the issue of displacement current when you try to understand how a circuit works. It's just accounting for what happens in the space between the two plates of a capacitor. Quote Dollard goes on to elaborate on how the displacement current in the space outside the coil can rise to astronomical levels. That one makes my alarm bells go off unless I am missing something. There is a magnetic field outside a coil, not an electric field. Going back to displacement current, that's one explanation for so-called "cold electricity." On another thread I explained how every "cold electricity" clip I have ever seen on YouTube was really just high frequency AC propagating through various setups to ground to make light bulbs light up with a single-wire, etc. I said that the high frequency AC was capacitively coupling to ground and completing the circuit even though there did not appear to be a closed-loop circuit. So there is your displacement current in action. Same thing for stray capacitive effects in a circuit. MileHigh

Ren	Re: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion « Reply #24 on: 2010-07-25, 22:25:36 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-07-25, 15:05:24 Ren: There is no impedance matching type of relationship between the output impedance of whatever is powering the motor and the input impedance of the charging battery. The drive coil is between the energy supply and the charging battery and this isolates the energy supply and the charging battery from each other. MileHigh Hmm. So the supply is connected to the coil and the coil is connected to the charging battery......And the charging battery is connected to the supply, at least on one terminal. Sorry I dont see complete isolation here. I find it unusual that your description of displacement current as being related to the space between capacitor plates and varying electric(magnetic) fields, and then you go on to say it has nothing to do with the Bedini monopole. I may not have my head totally around displacement current yet, but to me it would seem that we are talking directly about the space between capacitor plates (charging battery OR capacitor) and the sharp variation of electric(and his counterpart magnetic) fields. Dont agree with you on the impedance thing. How many transformers have an output impedance of 0.001 ohms? I find it unusual that you would discard impedance so quickly when JB talks about it all the time, and comes from a heavy AUDIO backround, where impedance is king. Some have even noted that the SG resembles a basic speaker driver, where the charging battery replaces the speaker.

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