Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential

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2024-11-26, 20:30:34
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Author Topic: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential (Read 102612 times)

Smudge	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #225 on: 2017-03-29, 16:02:53 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Hi Itsu, If this was a suspended sphere we would be looking to charge and then discharge the sphere's self capacitance. It is only during the charging or discharging phase that there would be any movement. So effectively we would apply a square wave to the sphere and expect movement only during the leading and trailing edge of the square wave. If we applied a fast pulse then any momentum imparted on the leading edge is immediately counteracted by reverse momentum imparted on the trailing edge. Maybe I was wrong to suggest fast pulses applied to the half cell, perhaps it needs a HV DC supply suddenly connected to the cell $:-\$ . Or maybe the cell idea isn't any better than the sphere $:-\$ . Or maybe there isn't any force anyway . Your HV scope probe, can that handle DC or is it a capacitive divider? I don't see any switched DC on your scope, only a fast pulse. With that diode there I would have expected to see something more like a sawtooth waveform where there is a fast charge then the slow trailing edge is the discharge through the scope probe. Smudge

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #226 on: 2017-03-29, 16:07:25 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Hmmm.... Spooky... I too decided this morning to look into Cyril's experiment two. Pictures attached. The Microwave oven transformer is pretty much self explanatory! The cell, as yet not filled with H2 SO4 is a thin piece of beaten Lead inside a small self sealing plastic bag. I hope to follow with a short video later, once the risk of electrocuting the grandchildren has been eliminated !! Cheers Graham. ------------------------ Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential vl1.png (597.21 kB, 632x472 - viewed 714 times.) Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential c1.png (352.8 kB, 632x472 - viewed 640 times.) --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Itsu	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #227 on: 2017-03-29, 16:26:41 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Quote from: Smudge on 2017-03-29, 16:02:53 Hi Itsu, If this was a suspended sphere we would be looking to charge and then discharge the sphere's self capacitance. It is only during the charging or discharging phase that there would be any movement. So effectively we would apply a square wave to the sphere and expect movement only during the leading and trailing edge of the square wave. If we applied a fast pulse then any momentum imparted on the leading edge is immediately counteracted by reverse momentum imparted on the trailing edge. Maybe I was wrong to suggest fast pulses applied to the half cell, perhaps it needs a HV DC supply suddenly connected to the cell $:-\$ . Or maybe the cell idea isn't any better than the sphere $:-\$ . Or maybe there isn't any force anyway . Your HV scope probe, can that handle DC or is it a capacitive divider? I don't see any switched DC on your scope, only a fast pulse. With that diode there I would have expected to see something more like a sawtooth waveform where there is a fast charge then the slow trailing edge is the discharge through the scope probe. Smudge ok, i just followed what you were proposing in post #205. I think you are right about the pulses, the cell seems to want to move (both on positive as on negative pulses), but somehow it stalls again like the leading and trailing edges fighting each other. The HV probe can handle DC, i guess the time base was way of to see the pulse correctly. Below a screenshot of a positive pulse (using a full AA battery). Itsu ------------------------ Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential positive pulse.png (3582.67 kB, 1632x1224 - viewed 720 times.)

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #228 on: 2017-03-29, 19:22:05 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Dear All. It is with a heavy heart that I have to announce " Busted " ! Nothing, not even a minute movement was seen. Sorry Cyril. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Smudge	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #229 on: 2017-03-29, 20:21:40 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Grumage on 2017-03-29, 19:22:05 Dear All. It is with a heavy heart that I have to announce " Busted " ! Nothing, not even a minute movement was seen. Sorry Cyril. Oh well, thanks for trying. Maybe your Franklin motor will eventually show something, at least there we know what the charge values are if we know the voltage. The half cell idea was a bit of a wild guess. Smudge

Itsu	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #230 on: 2017-03-29, 20:43:44 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Ditto here, no real movement detected. not with the positive / negative 500 - 2000V pulses, nor with a 83V supply (my dual 40V PS's in series) steady on, steady off both + as -83V. It looks like my magnesium rod is all salted up! Itsu ------------------------ Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential salted up.png (536.81 kB, 640x480 - viewed 657 times.)

TinselKoala	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #231 on: 2017-03-29, 21:06:37 »
Group: Guest	I wonder what would happen if you used the magnesium rod as an anode and provided a cathode of some kind, and used hydrogen peroxide instead of water in the salt-water electrolyte. (Not for Smudge's experiment, but as a battery....)

Itsu	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #232 on: 2017-03-29, 21:20:14 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Well the reason i had the magnesium rods is for experiments i did on (plain tap) water batteries in this thread here: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3421.msg59987#msg59987 I used these rods with copper as cathode wrapped around the magnesium to power a clock which still runs today (1,3V steady). The best result was with a graphite rod of the same dimensions as the magnesium rod as a cathode, 1.7V, but current was low. All with plain tap water though. Itsu

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #233 on: 2017-03-29, 21:23:19 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-03-29, 21:06:37 I wonder what would happen if you used the magnesium rod as an anode and provided a cathode of some kind, and used hydrogen peroxide instead of water in the salt-water electrolyte. (Not for Smudge's experiment, but as a battery....) Bass taking pi**tard !! A colloquial term from Birmingham......... " Workshop of the world " " You can always tell a Brummie, but not very much " --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #234 on: 2017-03-30, 12:53:53 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Re match. Upon tidying up the MOT assembly I noticed one of the connections from the FWBR had broken away, with not knowing when this happened during the experiment I'm going to give it another try. I'll keep you posted..... Cheers Graham. Update.... Sadly, same as yesterday's findings. I even checked the whole circuit by discharging the caps from the Lead plate. « Last Edit: 2017-03-30, 13:55:17 by Grumage » --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #235 on: 2017-03-30, 17:31:19 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Update. Franklin motor Mk3 now nearly complete. Two of the spheres are very badly finished, I've asked for replacements. Not going to bore everyone with yet another " Spinney " video..... Cheers Graham. ------------------------ Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential 161.png (463.63 kB, 632x472 - viewed 636 times.) Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential bfs1.png (518.64 kB, 632x472 - viewed 465 times.) --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Chet K	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #236 on: 2017-03-30, 17:47:23 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Well we're not exactly Steeped in franklin motor videos over here.... quite the contrary... they're as rare as hens teeth.... wouldn't mind seeing it run...... unless its a nuisance to do ??

Itsu	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #237 on: 2017-03-30, 18:18:55 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Right, me to, as i said before: Can't wait to see all spheres installed and spinning up. Itsu

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #238 on: 2017-03-30, 18:53:36 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Ok, Ok....... Here you are then..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkMnY2SsxPk « Last Edit: 2017-03-30, 20:13:08 by Grumage » --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Itsu	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #239 on: 2017-03-30, 19:51:04 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Graham, it runs great, its a beauty. Glad you decided to make a video of it, thanks. Itsu

Peterae	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #240 on: 2017-03-30, 20:32:25 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Hi Grum Very nice indeed, you could try a bit of reflective material on the top face of the perspex disc and shine your laser taco downwards.

Itsu	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #241 on: 2017-03-30, 21:23:04 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	When using this microwave oven diode in smudge suspended half cell test, i noticed in the data sheet of this HVR-1x-3 diode it has a max. forward voltage drop of 11V. I found this very high as normal silicon diodes have a 0.6V forward voltage drop, but i understand this is a feature of these HV diodes. As i just ran across a youtube video on how to use a scope as a V-I curve tracer ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWY-pakm_OM ) i wanted to try out this myself. I use my scope in XY display mode and used my current probe for the current (you could also use a csr). Below is a screenshot of the curve trace of this HV diode which shows that my diode has a forward voltage drop of about 7V. Further below is a curve trace of a normal 1N4148 signal diode which shows a forward voltage drop of 0.6V. Could come in handy to test unknown (HV) diodes. Regards Itsu ------------------------ Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential HV diode curve trace.png (16.23 kB, 640x600 - viewed 481 times.) Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential 1n4148 diode curve trace.png (15.14 kB, 640x600 - viewed 472 times.)

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #242 on: 2017-03-31, 13:25:48 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Many thanks for the compliments guys. For some strange reason I seem to have lost the typing cursor, any ideas on what I might have done? It's working at OU.Com. Ok as the motor is virtually complete, just waiting for the HVM's now. Who would like to build the accelerometer? I was thinking about counting pulses over a timed interval. One for TK. How good a shield would CoAx be with 20 Kv on the inner conductor? I have some really heavy duty stuff from my CB radio days. Cheers Graham. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

ion	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #243 on: 2017-03-31, 16:24:31 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Grum, nice work on your projects Itsu HV diodes used to be made of a stack of pellets of ordinary >1000PIV diodes. I don't know if that is still the case with newer technology. I have an old large Tek and a Heathkit curve tracer, but my favorite is the simple homemade curve tracer using a high voltage (1500V) low current transformer, a Variac and some current limiting resistors. I like this for testing the breakdown or avalanche of HV transistors and diodes in a non-destructive way, --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #244 on: 2017-03-31, 16:32:05 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Update. HVM's arrived whilst on the school run, the motor runs but not as fast as with the VdG. They are specified at 20,000 VDC. I have no means of measuring such a high voltage, we'll just have to take their word for it! Cheers Graham. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

TinselKoala	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #245 on: 2017-03-31, 17:09:21 »
Group: Guest	Quote How good a shield would CoAx be with 20 Kv on the inner conductor? I have some really heavy duty stuff from my CB radio days. Like RG-8? I dunno, could give it a try. Quote They are specified at 20,000 VDC. I have no means of measuring such a high voltage, we'll just have to take their word for it! Well, you could use your extra spheres to make a sphere gap and get pretty close that way. Or use another of the techniques described here: http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/hvmeasurements/ But you have to be careful with those modules. I don't know about the one you have but some of the cheap Chinese ones will try to raise their voltage if "open-circuited" on the output, to the point where the internal insulation may break down. For tachometry... you should be able to detect each spark from stator sphere to rotor sphere with your scope. Clip a piece, like six inches square, of aluminum foil to the scope probe and hang it a few feet away from the motor, of course being very careful not to let your HV spark to the foil! This should allow the detection of the collapsing E field as each spark happens. Then with a little math you can derive the rotor speed from the frequency of the spark detections.

Smudge	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #246 on: 2017-04-01, 11:16:00 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Grumage on 2017-03-30, 18:53:36 Ok, Ok....... Here you are then..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkMnY2SsxPk Hi Graham, As you are near to doing the wanted experiment here is my take on the preferential rotation directions. If you can demonstrate that all four situations give the wanted result then I think it can be concluded that there is indeed an influence from the Earth's magnetism. However I would not be surprised if the experiments are not conclusive in that there could be an inbuilt bias for a preferential direction that is greater than the field influence. We'll see. Smudge ------------------------ Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential Preferential rotation directions.jpg (97.84 kB, 509x433 - viewed 504 times.)

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #247 on: 2017-04-01, 18:07:43 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Hi Cyril. A step closer !! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koJ0qHNWlBM Cheers Graham. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Smudge	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #248 on: 2017-04-01, 18:58:43 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Hi Graham, Looking good! If you have any toroidal cores you could run the earthy connection (positive?) through the core and have some toroidal turns on the core. That will then be a step-up transformer with a 1 turn primary. You should be able to see the individual current pulses on a 'scope and can of course use their timings as a measure of rotation speed times 16. Smudge

Grumage	Re: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential « Reply #249 on: 2017-04-02, 11:31:29 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Dear All. I was hoping that perhaps another member of the forum could " knock up " the electronics to see this experiment through. A small " Hall effect " transistor into a timer/counter affair would be great. I'm totally unfamiliar with these newer gizmos, like Slider has been demonstrating recently. The " 555 alike " with simple LED/LCD display would be great. As I see it a controlled/consistent start mechanism and count the number of revolutions over a given time would prove Cyril's theory one way or the other. Oh, I forgot to ask. Is/does the HT layout appear adequate to remove doubt about its influence on the rotor? Kind regards, Graham. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

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