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Author Topic: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential  (Read 102585 times)

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Am I correct in assuming that the repulsive force of electrostatic energy is greater than that of electromagnetic energy?
EM almost does not repel at all.  e.g.: have you ever seen the repulsion of two light beams?

As for the distinction between magnetic and electric repulsions, I can write that two parallel wires spaced 1 meter apart and carrying 1 Amp of current (=1 Coulomb per second) will magnetically repel with a force equivalent to the weight of 20μg (for each 1m length of the wires).
However, two spheres spaced 1 meter apart and charged to 1 Coulomb each will electrically repel with a force equivalent to the weight of 917431 metric tons. ( see this ).

...but, but!  who is to say that 1C/s is even comparable to 1C ?!   A second is such an arbitrary unit!  Ignoring that time factor leads to a nonsensical comparison, such as power to energy ;) 
If we used a picosecond instead, then the magnetic force from 1C/ps current would be larger than the electric force from 1C charge (both at the same 1m spacing).


P.S.
The differences in magnitudes and behaviors of electric and magnetic forces, arise because electric forces are caused by 1D motions and magnetic forces are caused by 2D motions (not to be confused with 1 dimensional motions represented in 2 dimensional reference systems).
When an effect of motion is distributed over multiple dimensions, it manifests less in one dimension than motion not distributed over multiple dimensions.  That's like each of two women getting less effect from your wallet than one woman.

   

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Many thanks Verpies.   O0

Ok....

Initial results..... Looking good, but wrongly executed.....

Clockwise rotation yields 80+ RPM with more rapid acceleration. Anticlockwise rotation yields 60+ RPM with noticeably longer acceleration time.

" Mr Hand " was used to start rotation, this is something that needs addressing.

Yet to try with North input South output.

Kind regards, Graham.


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Further to Verpies answer a few posts back where he took two spheres placed 1m apart and carrying 1 Coulomb each.

If the spheres both move at velocity v at right angles to the line joining them then the magnetic force between them is exactly v/c times the enormous electrostatic force stated by Verpies, where c is the velocity of light.  I think that is a better way to view things.  Of course the electric force is still present, so if we did the measurement we would just measure a single force that is slightly smaller than the static one.  In fact we could write that changed force due to the movement as (1-v/c) times the static one.  That immediately suggests that magnetic and electric forces have a common origin and it's just our teaching that tells us they are different.  That (1-v/c) factor appears a lot in relativity theory so perhaps that is the link.  If you wonder how this can be when electric force formula use the permittivity (e-nought) of space while the magnetic formula use the permeability (mu-nought) of space then realise that (mu-nought)*(enought)=1/c2.

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More results.

With HT applied due North, ground applied due South I get....

66 RPM Clockwise.

71.3 RPM Counter Clockwise. With markedly noticeable acceleration in this direction.

These results come from using my " hand held " opto tachometer bouncing of each sphere then dividing by 16.

Having spoken with Cyril on the telephone last night the only method that will prove positively is with the HV module and the experiment set up outside in the middle of nowhere! Lucky for me..... I live in the middle of nowhere!

That's all for now folks......

Cheers Graham.


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If the spheres both move at velocity v at right angles to the line joining them then the magnetic force between them is exactly v/c times the enormous electrostatic force stated by Verpies, where c is the velocity of light.
Yes, and to dazzle Grum some more, I will write that the same thing will happen if the charged spheres are stationary but the observer is moving at right angles to the line joining them.
   

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Well done Grum.  Yes the electrostatic field applied to the moving spheres can well be modified by nearby objects such as walls and that could explain why you get the different rotation speeds.  We'll have to wait for better weather before you venture outdoors.  Oh well, its only 269 years since Franklin built his motor so what does it matter if we wait a few weeks (or months as it's Welsh weather we are talking about >:-) ).

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Well done Grum.  Yes the electrostatic field applied to the moving spheres can well be modified by nearby objects such as walls and that could explain why you get the different rotation speeds.  We'll have to wait for better weather before you venture outdoors.  Oh well, its only 269 years since Franklin built his motor so what does it matter if we wait a few weeks (or months as it's Welsh weather we are talking about >:-) ).

Smudge

Dear Cyril.

I'm confused....

I thought that it WAS the difference in RPM we were looking for ? ( Direction dependent )

Kind regards, Graham.


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I thought that it WAS the difference in RPM we were looking for ? ( Direction dependent )
I think he meant it to be "direction dependent" relative to the equator, not relative to your walls.
   

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I thought that it WAS the difference in RPM we were looking for ? ( Direction dependent )
Yes it is but we can't claim to have definitely found the Earth's A field effect if the same effect can be created by distortion of the electrostatic field.  We have to rule out the latter and that means doing the experiment within a vast space where there are no nearby walls.  While I sincerely hope that your latest finding really is the effect that I am looking for, the fact that it also showed up in the earlier run where the stator had a different orientation clearly demonstrates that your room is not the ideal laboratory.  So I wait impatiently for the results from the next phase.  If in the "wrong" orientation it can be shown that both rotation directions are equal while in the "right" orientation they are unequal then we are on much stronger ground.

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Dear Cyril.

The dim light bulb now shines brightly!!    O0

There's a member who's watching quietly suggesting that my spheres having a hole at either end might also " skew " the results.

I've just looked on eBay, there's a seller offering 5cm 304 SS hollow spheres at £0.99 each, with an extra 5% off if more than 3 are purchased. Free postage to boot!

What's the thoughts? It will mean me having to hone another 0.5 mm out of each socket but that's no big deal.

Consensus?

Kind regards, Graham.


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Dear Graham,

What's the weight of those SS spheres?  If they are substantially lighter than your brass ones then I would say go for it.  The change in acceleration between CW and CCW will be more noticeable, and you won't have to wait so long for the wheel to reach max revs.

Regards

Cyril
   

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Dear Cyril.

The deed is done....

Knowing the Chinese they will probably be made from the lightest gauge possible! I went to order 16, the dialogue box said enter a lower number. I entered 8 thinking it was a maximum postal thing. went to order another 8 only to find they had 7 left..... I have had to order 8 from a different supplier.... Gad zooks sometimes eBay can be quite frustrating !!

Now, yet another slow boat sets it's lonely sail..... Could be mid April.   :(

Kind regards, Graham.


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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Red-LED-4-Digital-Tachometer-RPM-Speed-Meter-NPN-Hall-Proximity-Switch-Sensor-/162017018134?hash=item25b8f78116:g:Iy8AAOSwxp9W88Xv
Where would you put the magnet the thing senses?  With a detection range of 10mm max you couldn't put it on the wheel near the spheres, it would have to be inboard near the bearing.  Then you have the wiring to the sensor head that would have to be routed so that it didn't affect the measurement or get clobbered by the high voltage.  No, the best route is for an optical pick off that will work at a reasonable range.  With some clever lens attachment it should be possible to get you hand held tachometer working at a longer range where you can have it fixed to a stand.
Smudge
   
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@@ Sorry posted at same time as Cyril ,and now I see additional equipment mentioned ...


@ Grum
Like waiting for the secret decoder ring in the mail..... :-[

here is a brief "partial "summary of experimenting criteria .

@ Dry bearings no oil [years of scientific Gyroscope experience.. dry clean bearings are best [this machine is not running forever or under extreme loads [Yet  ^-^ Acetone or other for clean up

@ yes light weight spheres , smooth of equal dimension [as much as possible on OUR budget

@ Well grounded  faraday cage  "Chicken wire" OK, a nice 10ft box was mentioned [having a bottom on cage not too important {?} ,height as best can be done .

@ position wooden {?} table in middle of grounded faraday room with van der graff underneath [no bias to one side or other and no people in room
try to have viewing port ??

@ all leads should be of equal length so as to not bias operation  [within reason

@ mentioned keeping personal distance and using "sticks" for adjustments [will ask for clarity on "sticks ?
 @@ note touching can make archs which will leave carbon traces { very bad] any archs will deposit carbon traces .

@ Comment on working outside ? Very Difficult  to achieve quality environment [particles etc

@ results need repeatability to rule out all unknown or unseen contributions from local environment

**sure there is more I forgot , will add as advised ....................

 
   
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
Just had a chat with Chet, or a chet with Chat and he asked me post the model number of my digital tachometer.
It's a DT-2234C
Red laser based, the range of sensing can be several inches away and so negate electrostatic effects.
It's one of those where you put a piece of silver foil on a rotor. The usual trick, to avoid using their own supplied small amount of tape, is to loop/paint black around the rotor edge and stick a small piece of tinfoil over that on the rotor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Laser-Photo-Tachometer-Non-Contact-RPM-Tach-Meter-Speed-Gauge-DT-2234C-/322094945843?hash=item4afe5ad633:g:mPIAAOSwiYFXKApP
$10.62 Free Shipping

Mine has been running for years with no issues. You can save the readings (up to 3) and it runs on a 9V PP3, have had the same one in this all that time.

 


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Dear Cyril.

Can this experiment be run in a different way?

I could substitute the central bearing with a suitably machined plastic gear that is fitted to a 12 VDC motor. Then drive the disc.

What would we need ? Can the experiment be done this way, or is the electrostatic interaction a fundamental key?

Kind regards, Graham.


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Dear Graham,

The spheres gaining and then losing charge is the fundamental key, not the electrostatic attraction or repulsion.  It is that gain or loss of charge at the point where the sphere is travelling along the A vector that conjures up a force impulse pointing along or against the A vector.  It is that force impulse that is anomalous and either aids or hinders the electrostatic motor action.

Your present set-up has two charged spheres as the stator and these produce the electrostatic field that is part of the electrostatic motor.  Those stator spheres are analogous to the N and S poles of a simple magnetic motor while the moving spheres are like the armature and also the commutator.  It would be nice if the stator spheres were not there to create the electrostatic field and the motor would just run on the A field interaction.  That would still need something to feed charge onto the moving spheres, like a sharp point mounted on an insulated pillar or even a tiny sphere, and the same on the other side to take charge off.  You would still need the same high voltage to get the charge onto the rotor spheres.  However the small stator electrodes would not then produce such a large electrostatic field and its motor action would be much reduced.  The A field interaction might not be sufficient to drive the motor, and that is where your suggestion could be put to use.  You could drive the disc via your 12 VDC motor and note its power draw under different orientations to see whether there really is something anomalous aiding or hindering the drive.

I have put forward the idea that a much larger charge might be obtained at a much lower voltage by using cell technology where charge is released by a chemical reaction, and that could be what the Innova Croatian device uses.  If we get to that stage the electrostatic motor action might disappear, then we have the A field reaction as a strong anomalous driving force where your DC motor becomes a generator that delivers anomalous energy to an external load.

Regards

Cyril
   
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I have put forward the idea that a much larger charge might be obtained at a much lower voltage by using cell technology where charge is released by a chemical reaction

Regards

Cyril

And could that cell technology which causes a chemical reaction be the white substance that has leaked out of jars which I believe to be behind the gold lids on the rotor?

Regards

Luc
   

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And could that cell technology which causes a chemical reaction be the white substance that has leaked out of jars which I believe to be behind the gold lids on the rotor?
Yes of course it could.  The interesting thing about the magnetic vector potential, the A field, is that it penetrates, it doesn't get shielded.  So you can have charge inside a cell that is hidden behind a metallic shell and it can still react with the Earth's A field.  It can still produce a force.  The only down side to this speculation is that although there will be a relatively enormous amount of charge in the form of say positive ions in the electrolyte, the chemical reaction leaves behind that same amount of opposite polarity charge as free electrons in the electrode.  (It is this production of free electrons that allows the cell to produce an electric current).  So the two cancel out wrt force.  Only if the free electrons in the electrode are suddenly removed do we have that large quantity of charge left isolated in the electrolyte, and I posit that is what happens.  Of course we are not talking about a complete battery cell here that consists of two half cells having different electrode materials, we are talking about just a half cell with only one electrode.

Smudge 
   
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Of course we are not talking about a complete battery cell here that consists of two half cells having different electrode materials, we are talking about just a half cell with only one electrode.

Smudge

Yes. one electrode we see on the rotor but maybe the other is not recognizable or visible?

Luc
   

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The interesting thing about the magnetic vector potential, the A field, is that it penetrates, it doesn't get shielded.

Magnetic potential

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_potential

The term magnetic potential can be used for either of two quantities in classical electromagnetism: the magnetic vector potential, A, (often simply called the vector potential) and the magnetic scalar potential, ψ. Both quantities can be used in certain circumstances to calculate the magnetic field.

The more frequently used magnetic vector potential, A, is defined such that the curl of A is the magnetic field B. Together with the electric potential, the magnetic vector potential can be used to specify the electric field, E as well. Therefore, many equations of electromagnetism can be written either in terms of the E and B, or in terms of the magnetic vector potential and electric potential. In more advanced theories such as quantum mechanics, most equations use the potentials and not the E and B fields.

The magnetic scalar potential ψ is sometimes used to specify the magnetic H-field in cases when there are no free currents, in a manner analogous to using the electric potential to determine the electric field in electrostatics. One important use of ψ is to determine the magnetic field due to permanent magnets when their magnetization is known. With some care the scalar potential can be extended to include free currents as well.

Historically, Lord Kelvin first introduced the concept of magnetic vector potential in 1851. He also showed the formula relating magnetic vector potential and magnetic field.

Wave–particle duality

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E2%80%93particle_duality

Wave–particle duality is the concept that every elementary particle or quantic entity may be partly described in terms not only of particles, but also of waves. It expresses the inability of the classical concepts "particle" or "wave" to fully describe the behavior of quantum-scale objects. As Albert Einstein wrote: "It seems as though we must use sometimes the one theory and sometimes the other, while at times we may use either. We are faced with a new kind of difficulty. We have two contradictory pictures of reality; separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do."[1]

Through the work of Max Planck, Einstein, Louis de Broglie, Arthur Compton, Niels Bohr and many others, current scientific theory holds that all particles also have a wave nature (and vice versa).[2] This phenomenon has been verified not only for elementary particles, but also for compound particles like atoms and even molecules. For macroscopic particles, because of their extremely short wavelengths, wave properties usually cannot be detected.[3]

Although the use of the wave-particle duality has worked well in physics, the meaning or interpretation has not been satisfactorily resolved; see Interpretations of quantum mechanics.

Niels Bohr regarded the "duality paradox" as a fundamental or metaphysical fact of nature. A given kind of quantum object will exhibit sometimes wave, sometimes particle, character, in respectively different physical settings. He saw such duality as one aspect of the concept of complementarity.[4] Bohr regarded renunciation of the cause-effect relation, or complementarity, of the space-time picture, as essential to the quantum mechanical account.[5]

Werner Heisenberg considered the question further. He saw the duality as present for all quantic entities, but not quite in the usual quantum mechanical account considered by Bohr. He saw it in what is called second quantization, which generates an entirely new concept of fields which exist in ordinary space-time, causality still being visualizable. Classical field values (e.g. the electric and magnetic field strengths of Maxwell) are replaced by an entirely new kind of field value, as considered in quantum field theory. Turning the reasoning around, ordinary quantum mechanics can be deduced as a specialized consequence of quantum field theory.


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And.... for the second week running....

"TWIT OF THE WEEK"

Is collected by me!

The HVM arrived this morning, hurriedly attached and the motor ran quite well. This " bright spark " decided to ground the Negative! Now it's pitiful....

The motor still runs but with nowhere near the verve, I have ordered a couple of replacement units, and another slow boat sets it's lonely sail for the UK.

Cheers Graham.

Addendum.

It seems the Black wire is the " HOT " one, not the Red one, as I naturally assumed it would be !!

With only 20 Kv the motor takes an age to speed up, BUT does seem to accelerate faster in Clockwise rotation with HOT facing North. Is this the correct direction for your hypothesis?
« Last Edit: 2017-03-04, 18:47:25 by Grumage »


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Dear All.

First batch of 8 x 50 mm diameter spheres arrived today, they're a little lighter in weight @ 22 grams each whereas the Brass ones weigh 55 grams.

I'm going to make another lighter rotor as the new spheres are nearly 2 mm larger in diameter and I will use my trusty dividing head to accurately position the sockets.

That's all for now folks......

Cheers Graham.


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I'm interested in these spheres.

Are they really stainless steel? (some SS alloys are ferromagnetic)

Do they have a seam or hole? Are they highly polished? Are they chrome plated? Have you drilled one yet... I would like to know the wall thickness.

   
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