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Author Topic: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential  (Read 102582 times)
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Thanks TK for those links.  Grum, hold fire, there is more coming soon.  The whole v dot A electrokinetic potential thing is mired in controversy and might not lead anywhere.  But what isn't in doubt is the Electric field of the earth that can be as high as 300V/m if my memory serves me correctly.  So an electrostatic motor along the lines I have been describing could gain an anomalous amount of energy from that source.  I am writing a paper on it to include the math.  What I realize immediately as I do this is the tiny quantity of commutated charge received by practical sized spheres or semi-spheres based on their self capacitance, at practical high DC voltage drive.  So my thoughts turn to achieving motional force in the earth's E field from much greater charge which means much greater capacity than the self value.  I think this may be possible using semi spheres that are capacitively connected to a conductive disc where that capacitance is many times greater than the self because of that coupling using a narrow gap filled with dielectric.  Maybe that dielectric is simply the glue that attaches the semi-sphere to the disc.  The spherical outer electrode travels through the potential difference supplied to the two fixed electrodes plus the potential difference supplied by the Earth's E field, thus transporting its charge through that combined potential, whereas the opposite charge on the other side of the dielectric is continually at the zero potential of the disc.   Looking at the Innova Tehno electrodes they could well be capacitively connected.  So we have the rotating disc earthed and the HV DC drive symmetrically +/- about earth.  With the Earth being negatively charged its E field points vertically downward, hence out two fixed spheres have the top one positive and the bottom one negative so that the disc rotates though the additively combined field.  We have an electrostatic motor that is OU, it requires mechanical drive to get it going and HV DC supply to keep it going.  We drive it with an electric motor that  doubles as a starting motor and a generator.  We have a small battery for starting that drives the electric motor/generator and at the same time drives the HV DC generator.  Then once it is going the battery is disconnected and replaced with a load, the output from the motor/generator driving both the load and the HV DC generator.

Smudge
I had the idea some years ago to replace the "sectors" on Wimshurst disks with HV doorknob capacitors for the same reasons, but I never actually built such a machine. It would be interesting to try it. And Oleg Jefimenko made electret-rotor motors that are powered nicely by the Earth's E field. His book on electrostatics is required reading for anyone interested in these phenomena.

However, the Innova Tehno machine is clearly a hoax, constructed of a few Red Herrings, just like the Methernitha Testatika. (Remember, the best Red Herrings are real fish, even if they point you in the wrong direction ultimately.) Real ES generators, like Bonetti/Wimshurst/Pidgeon/Dirod, will indeed "motor" when charged and allowed to turn ... but turn in the _opposite direction_ from the way they turn when driven and generating. But you need careful builds in order to see this phenomenon: low bearing friction, drive motors that can be disconnected mechanically or that have very low friction and no magnetic cogging, careful EHV construction that does not allow charge to escape readily, etc.
   

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@TK,

The problem with using the Earth's E field is the screening effect of buildings.  What intrigues me about the Earth's A field is that it doesn't get screened.  I have been doing more research and found a paper that presents the vector math in a different way, putting a new slant on things.  I am writing a paper on this, taking ION's comments on board by presenting the math with simple to understand concepts.  I think this could lead to an OU machine since it offers the source of the anomalous energy being the spinning high temperature Fe plasma that is the Earth's core.  If I am right that spin is slowed down slightly as we draw this anomalous power from our machine.  Not good for the longevity of the Earth's magnetic field over a time span of thousands/hundreds of years!  But maybe in that time frame man could do with the A field what he is trying to do with Carbon emissions, get some sort of feedback to become A field neutral.

Smudge
   

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NO!

The best Red herrings are smoked...... Kippers!

Mmmm.... I like Kippers.  :)


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Joking apart.

The " Door knobs " would increase capacitance ?  Area rather than Mass ?

What about laminated segments ? Several metal plates stacked with dielectric ?

So.... these devices, if properly built can motor ? Has a motor/generator ever been tried ?

I'm game.....

Another dedicated thread perhaps ?

Cheers Graham.


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Purely electric motors are nice because they give the designer a lot of time to react, since the energy stored in capacitances does not leak out as fast as it does from magnetic inductors (non-superconductive ones).

I like electric motors, that are based on dielectric slabs/sheets being pulled into the space between two charged metal plates.


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I like pickled herring.
   

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OK, here we go with the latest revelation.  It appears that the simple expedient of placing or removing charge from say an isolated sphere can summon up a force impulse from the Earth's magnetic vector potential A field.  If that force does work, i.e. the charge moves during the impulse, the energy gained can be put to good use.  The source of that energy is the moving Fe ions within the Earth's molten core.  Those moving ions create the A field and the moving-changing charge radiates an E field  that slows down those ions.  The ions in the core and the moving-changing charge at the surface are coupled by near field radiation to form a closed system.

The attached paper suggest a simple experiment that could verify the existence of this force impulse.  Perhaps Grumage could perform this experiment using his Van de Graaff generator.  I also attach two other papers referenced.

Smudge

edit, third paper was omitted, now added
« Last Edit: 2017-01-16, 14:16:05 by Smudge »
   

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Here is some required reading http://bado-shanai.net/Map%20of%20Physics/mopElectrotonic.htm

The magnetic vector potential A field is also called the electrotonic field, and it confers hidden linear momentum onto electric charge.  Note the reference to Feynman's Carousel where the sudden removal of that hidden momentum results in Feynman's carousel rotating.  In that case the A field from the coil current forms concentric circles so it imparts hidden angular momentum, and that loss of hidden angular momentum, by conservation laws, causes the thing to rotate.   So my spheres in the uniform A field have hidden linear momentum in their ions and in their mobile conduction electrons, and in the uncharged state these two momentums are equal and opposite.  The removal of some electrons takes away their hidden momentum which "unshields" that quantity of linear momentum hidden in the lattice.  By conservation of momentum the lattice exhibits a linear force and it will move.

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Hi Cyril.

Will these do ?

I have over 130 of them..... please don't ask ??!!   ;)

Kind regards, Graham.


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Hi Cyril.

Will these do ?

I have over 130 of them..... please don't ask ??!!   ;)

Kind regards, Graham.

They seem to be about 6 cm diameter and have a surface thickness of about 1.5 mm.  They look brassy so I calculate a mass of 142 gm.  Their self capacitance is about 1.7pF so if charged to 100 KV I reckon you should see a sudden velocity of about 2 mm/s, which should be observable.  Go for it!

Seem like you are well stocked for the next stage putting some onto a rotating disc :).

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Hi Cyril.

We went for it.... nothing to report....

The connection wires were jumping about but no discernible movement of the sphere was seen.

As a footnote it took nearly 20 minutes of drying on the stove before we got any life from the V d G and unlike on other occasions where 2 " sparks could be drawn from the 8 " dia collector the best achievable was just over 1/2 " !!

Too humid perhaps ?

Kind regards, Graham.

Addendum.

How about an inflated balloon covered with Aluminium foil ?  I re read your Pdf, you suggested a sphere of 100mm diameter. Our spheres are only 50 mm diameter and weigh 55 grams.


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Disappointing but could be the humidity is the problem in keeping the voltage too low.  Roll on Summer!!

On the other hand maybe it will never work  :(, it seemed too good to be true.

Smudge
   
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Chet, here's Fig 6.

Perhaps a large styrofoam ball painted with metallic paint or graphite rubbed evenly onto the surface might deliver high capacitance and low moving mass, making the effect more detectable (if it indeed exists).


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I got my sums wrong by a factor of 10 for Grum's spheres so the effect would have needed a microscope to detect the movement!  Yes it needs very low mass and the balloon or styrofoam ideas are good.  I remember using something called Aquadag to paint an electrode onto glass, there was also something called Oildag.  That was 67 years ago!

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For EHT you could use a smoking candle flame to cover the surface with C4. It's lightweight and may serve the purpose.
A little heavier is the old LP record anti static spray.
Heavier still is those metallic balloons, I've used these on a Tesla coil and it several the purpose.
A few ideas.
   

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Dear All.

As an aside, does anyone know if I can " gee up " the output from my V d G ?

I seem to remember reading about applying a high potential to the bottom brush?

Ideas?

Cheers Graham.


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I have over 130 of them..... please don't ask ??!!   ;)
No explanation needed ...you have brass balls.
   

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As a footnote it took nearly 20 minutes of drying on the stove before we got any life from the V d G and unlike on other occasions where 2 " sparks could be drawn from the 8 " dia collector the best achievable was just over 1/2 " !!

Too humid perhaps ?
Yes, humidity is the problem but not in a way you think.
The humidity aids in depositing and binding conductive air-pollutants to the Van de Graaf belt.  These pollutants cause charges to leak and the belt becoming inefficient.

Wash the belt first with copious amounts of deionized water and then with small amount of a hygroscopic solvent that does not dissolve the belt.  An absolute ethanol comes to mind here. Verify that the solvents are really deionized with an ohmmeter set to MΩ or GΩ scale.  Protect the belt from dust when drying it (dust can be conductive)
   

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Heavier still is those metallic balloons, I've used these on a Tesla coil and it several the purpose.
Mylar balloons are not so heavy - they float in the air with helium inside.
The metallic layer is very conductive but you have to melt away the protective plastic layer to make a galvanic connection to it.
   
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Smudge, thanks for jogging my memory regarding AcquaDAG. It has been many decades since I used the stuff, mainly to touch up scratches on the outer coating of a serviced CRT, and which formed the ground of a large capacitor formed by the same stuff used as an inner coating on the CRT.

Quote
Aquadag is a trade name for a water-based colloidal graphite coating commonly used in cathode ray tubes (CRTs). It is manufactured by Acheson Industries, a subsidiary of ICI. The name is a shortened form of "Aqueous Deflocculated Acheson Graphite", but has become a generic term for conductive graphite coatings used in vacuum tubes. Other related products include Oildag, Electrodag and Molydag. The product names are often printed with DAG in upper case (e.g. AquaDAG). It is used as an electrically conductive coating on insulating surfaces, and as a lubricant.

So I guess this could be made by mixing graphite and water, with something added to keep the graphite in suspension. Candle soot could be tried as szaxx recommended.

Quote
Aquadag consists of a dispersion of colloidal graphite in distilled water.[1][2] It is provided in concentrated paste form and is usually diluted with distilled water to a desired consistency before application. It can be applied by brushing, swabbing, spraying, or dipping, after which the surface is dried, leaving a layer of pure graphite.

After drying the coating is electrically conductive. Its resistance and other electrical properties vary with degree of dilution and application method. When diluted 1:1 and applied by brush its resistance is:

    Air-dried ~800 ohms per square
    Heated to 200 °C ~500 ohms per square
    Heated to 300 °C ~20–30 ohms per square

Quotes from Wiipedia

Thanks for the memories!

Graham

Yes, I have seen a small electrostatic supply of a few kV to aid charging the low side of the belt on these machinesmainly in construction projects and on large machines, but I have practically no firsthand experience using this method. This is usually called the "controllable spray voltage". Not sure if they are supplied on smaller machines. Are you certain that your machine does not already have one? Check in with TK on this one.


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No explanation needed ...you have brass balls.

Not wishing to brag !!    ;)

I'm fairly adept at the " Art " of metal spinning, this one however was done at a local firm.

As an aside, attached is a photo of the UK's largest V d G..... Built fairly locally to me.... On the site where Lewis Carrol sat and wrote Alice through the looking glass.

Interestingly there has been many a " Tale " of cars swapping places mysteriously on the car park when they were operational, spooky eh?

Cheers Graham.


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Update.

After a thorough overnight drying on the stove and taking Verpies advice, cleaning the belt with an alcohol swab. I'm now seeing 40mm sparks.

Trying the experiment with the 5" sphere we found several leakage spots along the suspension so were only getting 1/4" sparks at the sphere proper.

Solutions, anyone ?

Cheers Graham.


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Ok, I'll keep posting my advice on EHV static machines. Here are some thoughts based on what I'm reading here in the last few posts.

1. _ANY_ sharp points, thin wires, excessive roughness etc on voltage-charged parts will prevent buildup of EHV because such areas result in high field concentrations and will spray off corona -- often invisibly. Smoothness is critical. Even voltages as low as 600V can produce invisible corona discharge from sharp edges or points.

2. Moist air is not actually bad in itself; I've done electrostatic demonstrations in 100 percent RH with rainstorms outside. But moist air leads to invisible moisture adsorbed onto surfaces, particularly dusty surfaces, and this moisture will be conductive at EHV and will short out your machines, preventing charge buildup.

3. Once a conductive path forms, then allowing the machine to discharge along that conductive path, especially on plastic surfaces, causes an invisible carbon trail to form on the surface, which of course remains conductive enough to prevent charge buildup.

4. On VDG machines, the top spherical capacity has a sharp edge where the support column enters. To prevent this sharp edge from killing your charge buildup by corona spray, manufacturers of VDG machines use a "re-entrant" geometry, where this edge is forced up into the sphere itself, where the "faraday bucket" effect will cause the edge to be at a low relative potential and hence not be spraying corona. The only places a VDG machine should have sharp points are the "brushes" (which really aren't brushes because they really should not actually contact the belt.) Don't neglect the bottom enclosure part either; this can be connected to a good Earth ground like a cold water pipe (metal of course!), but if "floating" it too should have geometry and smoothness like the top.

So to get the best performance from your machines:

1. They must be _clean_ and _dry_. No dust must be present, and you can dry them effectively with an ordinary blow-dryer, carefully directing warm air over all surfaces inside and out. Careful not to melt parts! This will work even in high humidity but may need to be repeated when the parts have again adsorbed moisture from the air. I don't think I'd recommend putting the whole thing on a stove to dry it. Of course if you have a temperature-controlled drying oven big enough to contain the whole machine... that's a different story. But just use a blow-dryer; the warm airflow helps to evaporate moisture at the same time it warms the surfaces, and you can direct the airflow easily, like down the inside of the column, etc.

2. If you have invisible carbon trails caused by unintended sparking across surfaces, you may even need to replace the part, or abrade the surface followed by re-smoothing in order to get rid of the trail.

3. Thin wires, whether insulated or not, are not good for conducting your EHV charge to your load objects. Remember, at voltages of tens or hundreds of kV, the only effective insulation is distance. (Ordinary insulating materials are practically useless. Glass and smooth ceramic surfaces, like standoffs, etc. are the first things to accumulate and adsorb moisture from the air and will rapidly become conductive in humid environments.)  Use bead-chain with large balls for your flexible "wires" to make connections from the machine to the load. Their resistance is negligible at EHV, and their effective diameter, being much larger than thin wire, reduces corona loss due to small curvature radius of the thin wire. Bead chain is also very flexible even in larger sizes.

4. If you use alcohol to clean parts, be especially careful not to get it on acrylic plastic parts. It will cause crazing, cracking, premature structural failure, and the cracks can even become low-resistance pathways for unintended discharge. Yes, on VDG machines the belt must be kept clean, as it will become conductive itself due to dirt and carbon deposits and will limit or kill charge buildup.  Sparking along the belt is a common fault that will of course prevent charge buildup on the top capacity.

5. If your VDG top capacity does not have the re-entrant geometry at the hole, you can still help prevent or limit discharge by the use of "field shapers" around the column, as I illustrate in my VDG tutorials:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3pgtYQo7VU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xcxk0WKo9o

As to the issue of boosting VDG machines by spraying charge onto the belt from a conventional HV supply, yes, that works. Also increasing the capacitance of the "belt" works, see the Pelletron for how this is done.

In several of my demonstrations linked earlier you can see me using ping-pong balls that have been spray-painted with a nickel-containing conductive paint (grey). This stuff is readily available in electronic supply houses as MG Chemicals "Super Shield" :
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/emi-and-rfi-shielding/other-coating-systems/super-shield-nickel-841

I would not expect this to work on styrofoam balls without prior surface sealing, though; it will probably dissolve the styrofoam. The surface of styrofoam balls available at, eg, craft stores is too rough to be usable anyway. And things like Mylar balloons, with very thin metallic coatings, are also not really suitable because every spark will vaporize a pinpoint of the coating where the spark originates/terminates.

There are several companies that supply re-entrant, spun aluminum spheres for VDG machines. You can also improvise: I was using Chinese steel bowls from a restaurant supply house in Toronto, and I even found a bunch of chrome-plated steel baby-moon hubcaps at Active Surplus that were excellent performers (although not nearly as good as spheres with re-entrant holes.) I used hole saws and the lathe to cut the column holes in the bowls and hubcaps, followed by sanding with emery cloth to make the cut edges rounded and smooth.

If your load is not allowing charge to accumulate and voltage to build, use a small spark-gap to keep the load disconnected until the machine has built up enough charge to jump the gap and thus connect the load. You can see me using this technique in some of my videos. (Dirod + neon bank, for example: there is a little spark gap built into one end of the neon bank.)

   

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Dear TinselKoala.

Many thanks for your detailed and informative post.  O0

Our stove is water jacketed so it never gets to temperatures that would cause any damage, cozy warm.

The top sphere does indeed have the " re entrant " geometry you have written about.

So.... how should I proceed? It became obvious, in the dark that there were many leakages along the thin wire, how about the wire used to convey the energy from a Piezo igniter?

For Cyril.

The 5" dia Brass sphere weighs just over half a Kilo, too heavy?

I was hoping that if a rhythm could be established we might see a cumulative effect and start to see a swing?

Is the sphere shape important ? What about an empty Beer/Soda can?

Kind regards, Graham.



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TK
This bead wire I see you using in your Vids , can you offer up a source/vendor ?
I looked around and only see cheap "bling" in my searches.
can we use "bling chain" [My "T" Type ?}

Also The Nickel spray is a gem of an idea
link again here
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/emi-and-rfi-shielding/other-coating-systems/super-shield-nickel-841

we have another project which needs Nickel coating and it will be interesting to see  just how effective this product is in that application.

contacting vendors in My area and elsewhere ATM for price quotes.



   
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http://www.ballchain.com/chain_sizes.html

I used to get it from a hardware store in Alameda CA where they kept the larger sizes in stock for some reason. 
   
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