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Author Topic: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential  (Read 102650 times)

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For looking into my ideas different metals are not required, so use whatever is most convenient.

Verpies conductor "speed" list in post #11 would allow you to plot a performance value for each conductor listed, if the disk was made out of that pure material, and all other variables remained constant for each test. (apart from Density.. because that is defined as Mass per unit Volume)

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3395.msg59182#msg59182

After you have got a few different results for each different conductor material you could estimate a line of best fit.

See if any of the current frames of reference fit (trusted scientific record), if not a new frame of reference may require a new definition within the system.

If you are defining the pure root structure all current knowledge should fit into the tree..  ;D


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For looking into my ideas different metals are not required, so use whatever is most convenient.
Different metals do not provide much advantage for your rotating disk device, but your device based on the electron drift velocity can benefit from them.

For example the electron drift velocity in Cesium is 10x faster but its resistance is 12.5x higher (1/8%) than Copper.
Calcium metal has only 2 times the resistance of Copper but 3.5 times higher electron drift velocity.
   
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Ran some preliminary tests this morning and will post the pics of the test setup when the camera is charged.

I was able to drive up to 9 amps at 20kHz into the loop using a current step up toroid, tube audio amp and oscillator. I also put about 10kV on the turnaround sections. I used a 1k resistor across the center section and scoped across the resistor. I was able to sweep the frequency within the saturation range of the toroid and amplifier, roughly 1k to 25k

In no case did I see any DC or AC output from the center section outer shields, with or without HV attached to the turnaround sections. There was only a tiny bit of noise (low mV) which did not seem to be affected by changes in E-W alignment.

The Rg8/U with 11AWG inner conductor did not even get warm to the touch with 9 amps continuous at 20kHz.

I will run some further tests as time permits today.  Sorry if this initial null result disappoints. Hopefully something will show up later, or someone else may have better results.

p.s in looking at the pictures, the black box is the HV supply and the white wire was actually clipped onto the far end turnaround.


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There was only a tiny bit of noise (low mV) which did not seem to be affected by changes in E-W alignment.
It was that kind of E-W dependent mV noise that was expected.
   

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It was that kind of E-W dependent mV noise that was expected.

At garage workshop level would detecting specific material values be realistically possible ? If so, a random attempt to observe an anomaly could take a while.. null results appreciated.

If there is a scalar "field" of energy available throughout Earth space, with an energy gradient at highest potential at the Equator, defining what is moving in respect to everything else in the model is important.

This is a general post, I am quite interested in this, and verpies just saved everyone a hell of a lot of time!  O0


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It was that kind of E-W dependent mV noise that was expected.

I will say again that I found no E-W dependent signal or DC level. The "noise" that was present existed with or without the driving signal or HV source, and it seemed to be just ambient EMI.

I looked for any kind of directional peaking of signal but it was not seen.

If the experiment is to prove the earth "A" field exists with this type of test setup, then I believe a noise free environment and better test setup will be needed as my  present test setup and environment is masking potential signal, which I would guess to be in the microvolt or less range.

As a potential power source, the present suggested setup may need a revision , as I was pumping into the toroid 30 to 40 Watts and detecting only mV random noise across the 1K resistor, so uWatt range. Better measurements with some numbers will follow, but my initial impression is that the signal does not correlate to anything more than ambient EMI from lighting etc., with no directional E-W or N-S preference.

I welcome and urge Verpies, Graham, and others to replicate so that we can compare notes in order too see what is being missed. I know Verpies and Graham have suitable equipment for this.


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Good work Ion.  The only thing I can suggest is a much higher value "load" resistor.  The ability to pump current through the load will be limited by the relatively small capacitance coupling values, and maybe a higher load (like 1M !!) would supply more voltage.  With drive at only one end I would have expected to see some direct coupling into the "load" and not just noise.  If you can get some sinewave signal there then you might look for variation with orientation.

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Dear Cyril.

May I draw your attention to my post here?

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3395.msg59181#msg59181

I have a broken " instant heat " soldering gun, I could use it to drive the loop, thoughts?

With regards to your third paper, I have at my disposal over 100 2" diameter hollow Brass balls with a hole through the centre line. Rather than a disc could I create a hub with spokes, said spokes made of " stud bar/allthread " the balls bolted at the ends of each spoke? Or is the disc of metal an important factor?

Not having much metal in the workshop these days but a ridiculous amount of sheet plastic off cuts another alternative could be covering the plastic disc with Aluminium foil and fitting some M 8 Brass dome head nuts with suitable division?

Kind regards, Graham.


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Dear Graham,

I assume the instant heat solder gun operates on 50Hz mains so not really a high enough frequency to drive any significant current through the capacitive coupling.  But you could be OK if you just look for voltage across a high resistance, like the 1M or 10M scope probe itself.  There is no doubt the gun would pump current into the loop.

As regards the spinning disc approach, I have had further thoughts on this expressed in the paper here.  I don't know whether you or anyone else have come across the electro-static (not really static but you know what I mean, using electro-static attraction and repulsion) motor described here where the commutation is carried out using spark gaps as one electrode passes another.  This uses an insulated disc and you say you have lots of plastic around.  If you also have some DC EHT source (which I suspect you have) it could be an interesting exercise making this form of motor.  You could perhaps cut your brass balls in half then glue them to the disc, having first put a bolt though the hole, said bold having been tapered down to a point.  Even if the earth's field thing doesn't work the electro-static motor will/should.

Smudge
   

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A quick search on electrostatic motors reveals many designs using Coulomb forces but none of them use spark gap commutation.  Now either my brain has done something silly in working out what charge the isolated electrode gets via the spark as it passes the fixed one, or this simple idea has remained hidden in plain sight for centuries.  Maybe not very practical due to tip erosion, but even that could be overcome with appropriate design.

Smudge
   

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Dear Cyril.

Many thanks for the new paper.  O0

With regard to the soldering gun I was thinking on the lines of a variable frequency input from a power amplifier not specifically at 50 Hz.

I wonder if TinselKoala has dabbled in this area? Electrostatic, that is.

Kind regards, Graham.


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I have dabbled a little myself.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-AqL-8RGNc

Could I use that disc with some woodscrews poking through as a " Quick and dirty " experiment ?

Oh, and here's my laboratory grade Van de Graaff generator in action !!   ;)

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiqEtigpJaI

Kind regards, Graham.


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Hi Graham,

IMO the wood screw is not large enough.  I think you need a reasonably large body that can carry a reasonable amount of charge at a reasonable voltage.  The larger a body the greater its self capacitance.  IMO the screw would have too small a self capacitance, but try it anyway.  I like your Van de Graaff, that should do it perfectly.  If that machine you were debunking actually actually sparked across to the electrode maybe it would work.  You need sharp points on the disc electrodes almost mating with sharp points on the fixed ones.  Maybe a modification of that would suffice.

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How about these ?

Brass M 8 domehead nuts.


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A quick search on electrostatic motors reveals many designs using Coulomb forces but none of them use spark gap commutation.  Now either my brain has done something silly in working out what charge the isolated electrode gets via the spark as it passes the fixed one, or this simple idea has remained hidden in plain sight for centuries.  Maybe not very practical due to tip erosion, but even that could be overcome with appropriate design.

Smudge

The spark-gap commutated Enhanced Franklin ES motor (powered by the TKDirod) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqf3bUL4YqE
   
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Dear Cyril.

Many thanks for the new paper.  O0

With regard to the soldering gun I was thinking on the lines of a variable frequency input from a power amplifier not specifically at 50 Hz.

I wonder if TinselKoala has dabbled in this area? Electrostatic, that is.

Kind regards, Graham.

Indeed I have.

Measuring mini Van de Graaff machine voltage using laboratory ES voltmeter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eogpGHFgV6E

Van de Graaff oil jet demo 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2lTeGH-lws

Construction and operation of a small VDG machine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3pgtYQo7VU  (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xcxk0WKo9o  (part 2)

TKDirod:  (capable of over 60 kV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxEpSX2Hd54

TKIDirod, corona motor, NE2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpemKuf6X_c

MagLev ES motor w/ Arduino tachometer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVfw-TeJ9r4

TKBonetti Machine: (capable of over 300 kV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fWasxYQZZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYGFqkXjwZc

Quantum Gravity Nullification (from alt.snakeoil):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-aP7sk48jw


Even at relatively "low" HV, such as over 600 v, any sharp points or roughness or irregularities will spray charge (ionizing air gas molecules) and will limit voltage buildup. To get actual EHV you need to pay careful attention to smoothness. Also, conductive paths formed by moisture and dust on non-conducting surfaces will kill your charge. Black plastics are often colored black with carbon-black.... and are sufficiently conductive to kill charge buildup. Wood -- good if it is _completely_ dry, better if it is wax-impregnated. Delrin (white) = excellent material. Acrylic (perspex, plexiglass) is great. Polycarbonate (Lexan) also good but generally too flexible for, eg, Bonetti disks. Bead chain with large beads makes excellent conductors ("wires") for EHV.  And you would be surprised at how strong ES attraction-repulsion can be. Many many times stronger than gravity.


   

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Thanks TK for those links.  Grum, hold fire, there is more coming soon.  The whole v dot A electrokinetic potential thing is mired in controversy and might not lead anywhere.  But what isn't in doubt is the Electric field of the earth that can be as high as 300V/m if my memory serves me correctly.  So an electrostatic motor along the lines I have been describing could gain an anomalous amount of energy from that source.  I am writing a paper on it to include the math.  What I realize immediately as I do this is the tiny quantity of commutated charge received by practical sized spheres or semi-spheres based on their self capacitance, at practical high DC voltage drive.  So my thoughts turn to achieving motional force in the earth's E field from much greater charge which means much greater capacity than the self value.  I think this may be possible using semi spheres that are capacitively connected to a conductive disc where that capacitance is many times greater than the self because of that coupling using a narrow gap filled with dielectric.  Maybe that dielectric is simply the glue that attaches the semi-sphere to the disc.  The spherical outer electrode travels through the potential difference supplied to the two fixed electrodes plus the potential difference supplied by the Earth's E field, thus transporting its charge through that combined potential, whereas the opposite charge on the other side of the dielectric is continually at the zero potential of the disc.   Looking at the Innova Tehno electrodes they could well be capacitively connected.  So we have the rotating disc earthed and the HV DC drive symmetrically +/- about earth.  With the Earth being negatively charged its E field points vertically downward, hence out two fixed spheres have the top one positive and the bottom one negative so that the disc rotates though the additively combined field.  We have an electrostatic motor that is OU, it requires mechanical drive to get it going and HV DC supply to keep it going.  We drive it with an electric motor that  doubles as a starting motor and a generator.  We have a small battery for starting that drives the electric motor/generator and at the same time drives the HV DC generator.  Then once it is going the battery is disconnected and replaced with a load, the output from the motor/generator driving both the load and the HV DC generator.

Smudge 
   
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TK is that your hand getting so close to the Bonetti wheel adjustments? You have courage!

Attached is a pic of the cover of my High Voltage bible. I'm sure there are also other good reads out there, but this is my favorite. Recommendation: don't let a copy escape you.

I tend to favor the simple design of Felici or Sames machines, but have never built one so kudos to you on the Bonetti.

Smudge:

While I appreciate the rigorous math treatments, perhaps others such as myself are more visual or intuitive and going a little deeper with practical explanations would be easier for us that struggle with the math.

Recently I have been downloading and plodding through whatever I could find on the Magnetic Vector Potential and this was the simplest explanation I could find:

Quote
1.   A (uniform) magnetic field B in the z-direction corresponds to a vector potential A that rotates about the z-axis with magnitude A = B0•r’/2 (with r’ the displacement from the z-axis, not from the origin—obviously!). So that gives you the A inside of a solenoid. The magnitude is A = (1/2)•n•I•r’/ε0c2, so A is proportional with r’.
2.   Outside of the solenoid, A‘s magnitude (i.e. A) is inversely proportional to the distance r’, and it’s given by the formula: A = (1/2)•n•I•a2/ε0c2•r’. That’s, of course, consistent with the magnetic field diminishing with distance there. But remember: contrary to what you’ve been taught or what you often read, it is not zero. It’s only near zero if r’ >> a.

Is this correct? Is there a simpler way to describe it?


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Here is another article for Smudge
   

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Smudge:

While I appreciate the rigorous math treatments, perhaps others such as myself are more visual or intuitive and going a little deeper with practical explanations would be easier for us that struggle with the math.

Recently I have been downloading and plodding through whatever I could find on the Magnetic Vector Potential and this was the simplest explanation I could find:

Is this correct? Is there a simpler way to describe it?
Well that tells you the magnitude of the A field and the geometry of the field lines (concentric circles) within and outside a core, but it doesn't tell you exactly what the A field is.   There is a vector identity called the Curl, which expresses a form of spatial non-uniformity.   It expresses how a vector changes magnitude with distance as as you move away at right angle to it. which often (but not always) results in the vector curling round  to form closed loops.  Quite often vector identities result in the formation of another vector, perhaps the best known being vector multiplication which we do when we use Fleming's RH and LH rules using our fingers and thumb as the vectors.  You could also do the same thing with the Curl function using say the first finger to point along the vector, the thumb to represent magnitude of spatial change at right angles to the vector, and the second finger to represent the resulting Curl vector.  A magnetic B field (Webers/m2) is defined as the Curl of the A vector, i.e. B = Curl(A).

The A vector actually comes from moving charges.  A moving point charge Q radiates an A field that everywhere points along the velocity direction and has a magnitude that reduces with distance r from the charge and is given by A=munought*Q*v/(4*pi*r).  (Over long distances you also have to take account of the propagation time because the radiation travels at light velocity).  Thus taking a radial space increment away from and at right angles to the velocity (thumb), first finger along the velocity also A field direction, then the Curl points along the second finger direction which results in the B field forming concentric circles.

Smudge
   

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The whole v dot A electrokinetic potential thing is mired in controversy
So what?
The AB Effect proves that there is sth happening in the center of a toroid so even where the E and B fields are zero, potentials still exist and they cause real effects...there are just no gradients.

   

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So what?
The AB Effect proves that there is sth happening in the center of a toroid so even where the E and B fields are zero, potentials still exist and they cause real effects...there are just no gradients.
Well there you have the controversy.  You say there are no gradients, yet various authors have argued that there are gradients.  And then there is the argument when dealing with grad(v dot A) as to whether you neglect some velocity terms, or as Culwick says "if  grad operates only on A, not v".  It is down to experiments to determine who is correct, and since the presence or absence of the grad terms determine whether we get OU or not, then such experiments are of interest to this forum.

Smudge 
   

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Well there you have the controversy.  You say there are no gradients, yet various authors have argued that there are gradients.  And then there is the argument when dealing with grad(v dot A) as to whether you neglect some velocity terms, or as Culwick says "if  grad operates only on A, not v".  It is down to experiments to determine who is correct, and since the presence or absence of the grad terms determine whether we get OU or not, then such experiments are of interest to this forum.

Smudge

Nice accurate summation of the situation!

I am one of those authors arguing for a frame of reference definition of the same mass in the same space at the same time, in order to create a temporary gradient imbalance, this being critical to achieving COP>1 performance.. or not.

Of course this is in a different 'field'..  ;D

If the definition of mass occupying a space volume is critical to gradient creation, the resultant static scalar potential energy to vector mass kinetic energy switch must be used externally to the originating system, or be re-absorbed internally within the system during the working cycle.

This position forces me to argue that 'work done' is a third frame of reference, occupying a different space to the other two (which occupy the same space at the same time and are dependent on specific definition).

This 'work done' in my model can be stored by transformation into electricity (available for use externally to the system), which is not a fundamental state of matter.

And you would be surprised at how strong ES attraction-repulsion can be. Many many times stronger than gravity.


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Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   

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Of interest now is what does the v dot A electrokinetic potential do to the equal but opposite charges Q in a charged capacitor that is moving at velocity v.  If Q*potential represents some energy residing with the charge, how does that energy manifest itself?  If the charges are wiggling about at Fermi velocity do their Fermi velocities change?  What about the effect of the A field on those Fermi velocities?  Do we get greater Fermi velocity in one direction compared to the other?  If the capacitor plates are parallel to the A field do we get a forced migration of charge along the plates so that positive charge goes one way and negative charge the other?  Since only electrons can move. the positive ions being fixed in the lattice, do we get this migration on only the negative plate?  If so does this separation of charges represent an effective change in capacitor value?  Does the Innova Tehnu machine charge capacitance on the revolving disc at one value of capacitance then discharge it at another value?  Or does that migration of negative charge provide the sideways displacement needed to break an otherwise symmetrical torque waveform, leading to a net positive boost torque.  Food for thought there.

Smudge
   
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TK is that your hand getting so close to the Bonetti wheel adjustments? You have courage!

Attached is a pic of the cover of my High Voltage bible. I'm sure there are also other good reads out there, but this is my favorite. Recommendation: don't let a copy escape you.

I tend to favor the simple design of Felici or Sames machines, but have never built one so kudos to you on the Bonetti.

(snip)

Somewhat OT but for the benefit of those seeking EHV from electrostatic machines:

Yes, my fingers are imparting the initial slight charge by friction to the disks to get the machine started. There are other ways but this is the simplest way I have discovered. One must know just where to touch, though! I think a beta-particle radioactive source placed in the right spot would also work great for starting the "influence" or induction process.
For anyone interested in EVH generation I can strongly recommend the TK-Bonetti design as being superior to other designs such as Pidgeon. I've made a couple of improvements in design so that the machine is capable of more voltage and current output per unit volume than just about any other design.
In the attached photo, note the position of the neutral structures and the output combs, as well as the distributed corona. While it may look like the corona is coming from the combs onto the disks, it is actually the other way around: the disks are turning in the direction such that the corona comes off the _disks_ and onto the neutral and output combs. Also, in the area at top and bottom of the disk pair, a very interesting phenomenon occurs _between_ the two disks (barely visible in this photo at the top of the machine). A strange sparkling scintillation happens between the disks in this area between the neutral combs on opposite sides of the disk pair, not corona but something else. The disks are also repelled and attracted to each other in various places around the machine. This makes it difficult to use polycarbonate plastic for the disks, as it is too flexible and the thin disks warp crazily under both electrostatic and aerodynamic loads when in operation. They warp and will crash into each other! So use acrylic plastic which is stiffer.
Another thing that is important is that the motors used to drive the disks be "non-cogging" or rather freely turning when not powered. This will allow you to see what happens when you turn the motors off and allow the machine to coast to a stop in a charged state. Very interesting! But don't let your motor shafts and disk hubs be of any conductive material -- the center of the machine is a bad place for anything conductive as the HV will short out across the centers of the disks if it can.
The modifications that make the most difference (other than general cleanup and elimination of sharp edges) are the variable positioning of the neutral structures and the output combs. Most builds that you will see of the basic Bonetti design (and in fact all Wimshurst and other rotating disk machines I've seen) actually have the neutral structures and output combs fixed in non-optimum positions; for better performance they need to be made so that they can be moved independently, as in my design. The machine pictured in the attached photo has disks that are approx. 300 mm in diameter and it easily produces 270 mm sparks in rapid sequence between large spherical terminals. Look that up in your spark-gap voltage tables!
I enhance the capacitance of my machines by putting a stack of HV doorknob capacitors with barium or strontium titanate dielectric across the output prime conductors. Water-filled Leyden jars work well but are so -- last century! And also wet and sloshy.
   
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