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Author Topic: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU  (Read 24432 times)
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img  ion
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #50 on: 2018-01-18, 13:50:45 »
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It's turtles all the way down
What worries me about the circuit is the lack of any safeguards that would prevent full battery power from backing up into the SG should the mosfet fail in a manner that shorts the drain and gate.

The SG probably has about a 10 ohm output impedance so a very low milliampere fuse might protect the SG.

Has Bruce specified a value for the main fuses? Would hate to see your new SG get smoked.


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img  Itsu
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #51 on: 2018-01-18, 14:49:48 »

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No value specified for the fuses other then "quick blow".

Thats the reason i do not use my Rigol FG for this, but have ordered this same El Cheapo FG Bruce uses.



I upgraded again to now 36V and it seems harder to "open" the MOSFETs by manipulating the FG amplitude adjust pot, its set at max (5v) for a meager 20mA current in the main circuit.

Anyway, here the new post i did on overunity.com:





Made again some minor changes while still waiting for the dual ch FG, like using 36V on the MOSFETs and shortening the supply wires as much as possible.

Using 2 current probes to monitor the 36V input current and the WIRE current (between WIRE and floating 12V battery).

First thing i noticed is that the pickup loop does NOT pick up as much energy as earlier, with the amp meter in the supply line showing 7.5mA, no energy is picked up at all!

I had to increase the current through the MOSFETs (by adjusting the gate signal amplitudes) to about 20mA for any reaction on the pickup loop.

Another thing to notice is that the ringing frequency on the 36V input current is now increased from 8.3Mhz to 12.5Mhz.
I think this has to do with the shortend leads between circuit and batteries.

All together i think that the shortend leads and therefor the higher ringing frequency influences the amount of energy (reflected) in(to) the WIRE negatively

Screenshot shows the 2 current probe signals:
purple is current in the 36V supply lead  (value needs to be taken x 10, so 404mA pp)
green is current in the WIRE (at the end near the 12V floating battery)

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PuNvVTiHaA


Hmmmm, changing the 36V "return" lead with a longer wire increases the pickup loop signal again, increasing the length of the 36V supply lead seems to have no influence on it!


Regards Itsu
« Last Edit: 2018-01-18, 15:24:33 by Itsu »
   
img  itzon
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #52 on: 2018-01-19, 00:34:47 »
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Itsu,  thanks for taking the time to make and post the video.

I'm not suprised that increasing the length of the wire on the positive side showed no increase on "the WIRE" due to
"the WIRE" being connected to the neg side of the 36v battery, it should be open circuit to the positve side during
off time of the mosfet and show no increase in the ringing reflection.

The change of wire length from what you had to really short, which I didn't pay that much attention to, I don't think equates to the decrease in propagation time delay of 4Mhz.  That would be a huge change of length for that difference in frequency.  I think this is why bench measurements and testing are extremely important.

Your VU meter may be meeting its frequency limits and not showing what is really going on.   

Edit:  I forgot to add, it may be interesting to add another "the WIRE" to the positive side and connect it to an additional open circuit 12v battery to see if the reflections on that side can be added to the  magnetic field created on the neg side. 
« Last Edit: 2018-01-19, 01:17:53 by itzon »
   
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Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #53 on: 2018-01-19, 06:22:24 »

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Interesting circuit.  It is essentially a push-push pulse generator
such as is used in Radio Frequency Power Amplifiers.  In this case
the two MOSFET switches are driven synchronously with a small
difference in the very narrow gate drive pulse widths.  If, that is,
the two outputs of your Signal Generator are synchronized and
"in phase."

The output of the circuit will certainly excite the "distributed
resonant circuit" represented by the wiring into a damped
oscillation as is shown on the oscilloscope.

Radio Frequency waves tend to want to "propagate" along
whatever path is available to them.  RF energy will very
definitely traverse the wire connected to the separate
battery which will act as a "load" of sorts to be detected
by the pickup loop.

Adjusting the amplitude of the Gate Drive Signal is precisely
how Radio Frequency Power Amplifiers of the past had been
adjusted;  with vacuum tubes the Grid Drive was adjusted.

Because the circuit lacks a well defined "tank" to develop
powerful oscillations it will not be efficient.  But it will
radiate RF energy for a certainty.

Excess energy of any variety?  Nope...

With MOSFETs care must be taken to not forward bias the
internal protective diodes in the Gate to Source connection.
Those internal diodes are very fragile.
 
Itsu,

The Blue trace on your scope shows the predominant
frequency of the ringing while the Green trace shows
that it is sensing several frequencies, some indicating
in the hundreds of Mhz.  It would seem that the pulses
produced by the MOSFETs are very rich in harmonics.
Similar to what would be seen with a spark gap.
« Last Edit: 2018-01-19, 07:24:46 by muDped »


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #54 on: 2018-01-19, 20:32:54 »

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Quote from: itzon on 2018-01-19, 00:34:47
Itsu,  thanks for taking the time to make and post the video.

I'm not suprised that increasing the length of the wire on the positive side showed no increase on "the WIRE" due to
"the WIRE" being connected to the neg side of the 36v battery, it should be open circuit to the positve side during
off time of the mosfet and show no increase in the ringing reflection.

The change of wire length from what you had to really short, which I didn't pay that much attention to, I don't think equates to the decrease in propagation time delay of 4Mhz.  That would be a huge change of length for that difference in frequency.  I think this is why bench measurements and testing are extremely important.

Your VU meter may be meeting its frequency limits and not showing what is really going on.   

Edit:  I forgot to add, it may be interesting to add another "the WIRE" to the positive side and connect it to an additional open circuit 12v battery to see if the reflections on that side can be added to the  magnetic field created on the neg side.


Itzon,

thanks for the comments, i used an 11m wire as the 36V return lead and it show the decrease in ringing frequency from 12.5Mhz to 4.46Mhz, but also the increase in
activity on my pickup loop VU meter untill it pegs the right corner, see this post on overunity.com:
http://overunity.com/2300/bruces-tpu-theory-and-experiments-ver-1-2/msg515609/#msg515609


Then i used the same 11m wire as supply lead and it also shows the same decrease in ringing frequency, but NOT the increase in the pickup loop, so confirming your idea.

I sweeped my pickup coil to see how its frequency response is by using a single turn from my FG and sweeping from 1Khz to 30Mhz (yellow probe across the 8 Ohm resistor)
The result can be seen in the screenshot below, where each division is about 3Mhz (1Khz on the left, 30Mhz on the right).
We see a fairly flat range till 15Mhz (note the influence of the BAT48 schottky diode till there), followed by a sharp resonance peak at 21Mhz.

 
As we will be using the circuit in the lower MHz range, i guess it will do fine for this setup.

Will be thinking to put the WIRE on the positive lead, to see if the effect will be there too then.


Itsu
   
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Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #55 on: 2018-01-19, 21:03:39 »

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Quote from: muDped on 2018-01-19, 06:22:24
Interesting circuit.  It is essentially a push-push pulse generator
such as is used in Radio Frequency Power Amplifiers.  In this case
the two MOSFET switches are driven synchronously with a small
difference in the very narrow gate drive pulse widths.  If, that is,
the two outputs of your Signal Generator are synchronized and
"in phase."

The output of the circuit will certainly excite the "distributed
resonant circuit" represented by the wiring into a damped
oscillation as is shown on the oscilloscope.

Radio Frequency waves tend to want to "propagate" along
whatever path is available to them.  RF energy will very
definitely traverse the wire connected to the separate
battery which will act as a "load" of sorts to be detected
by the pickup loop.

Adjusting the amplitude of the Gate Drive Signal is precisely
how Radio Frequency Power Amplifiers of the past had been
adjusted;  with vacuum tubes the Grid Drive was adjusted.

Because the circuit lacks a well defined "tank" to develop
powerful oscillations it will not be efficient.  But it will
radiate RF energy for a certainty.

Excess energy of any variety?  Nope...

With MOSFETs care must be taken to not forward bias the
internal protective diodes in the Gate to Source connection.
Those internal diodes are very fragile.
 
Itsu,

The Blue trace on your scope shows the predominant
frequency of the ringing while the Green trace shows
that it is sensing several frequencies, some indicating
in the hundreds of Mhz.  It would seem that the pulses
produced by the MOSFETs are very rich in harmonics.
Similar to what would be seen with a spark gap.

MuDped,

thanks for your insights, i did blow up a few MOSFETs already so indeed need to be carefull not to drive them the wrong (positive here) way.

I scanned the WIRE (green trace) with my Spectrum Analyzer, and it reveals the thru spectrum this device generates, see 1st picture with device off,
2th picture is with the device ON.

I couple my Spectrum Analyzer with a single loop to the WIRE loop, so loosely.
We see activity popping up till 150Mhz.


Itsu
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #56 on: 2018-01-22, 02:30:44 »
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I'm still unclear as to just what this device is supposed to do, or what new and unique principle it is supposed to demonstrate.

(Other than how not to drive a p-channel mosfet...)

 ???




Itsu, the slight difference in frequency between the two channels will also give a phase shift indication on the oscilloscope. So you may be seeing the result of this effect, plus the actual 1 degree phase shift set in the FG itself.


   
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Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #57 on: 2018-01-22, 05:27:39 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018-01-22, 02:30:44
I'm still unclear as to just what this device is supposed to do, or what new and unique principle it is supposed to demonstrate.

(Other than how not to drive a p-channel mosfet...)

 ???




Itsu, the slight difference in frequency between the two channels will also give a phase shift indication on the oscilloscope. So you may be seeing the result of this effect, plus the actual 1 degree phase shift set in the FG itself.

From what I understand the driver circuit is suppose to cause the 'wire'/'coil' to produce a magnetic field by 1 ended injection from the driver circuit. One ended with the other end connected to the lone battery terminal.

Mags
   
img  Itsu
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #58 on: 2018-01-22, 12:15:23 »

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TK,  Mags,

yes TK, thats my local town FM radio station at 105.4Mhz thats creeping in here on my scope signals and Spectrum Analyzer etc.



I do not fully understand what Bruce is trying to do here, even though i am in PM contact with him, but he and i are on different levels of understanding
about this stuff, thats for sure.

It looks to me that the RF generated by the both switching MOSFETs is finding its way out through the wires (antenna), but Bruce mentions that we can/should find
electrons coming OFF of the WIRE somehow.


This effect is being mentioned:   DeBroglie Hypothesis   which was new to me.

I am trying my best to wrap my head around all of this, but its uncharted territory for me.

Itsu
   
img  ion
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #59 on: 2018-01-22, 14:21:44 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: Magluvin on 2018-01-22, 05:27:39
From what I understand the driver circuit is suppose to cause the 'wire'/'coil' to produce a magnetic field by 1 ended injection from the driver circuit. One ended with the other end connected to the lone battery terminal.

Mags

If you draw out the complete circuit that includes the lone battery's capacitance through the air back to the source of power, then it is not a one wire circuit, but has a completed path through said capacitance.

In this regard the circuit is a series resonant L-C

You could then replace the lone battery with a conductive object of the same conductive surface area and most likely the circuit will behave the same.

You could also try a completely dead lone battery and connect a wire between the two terminals and note the same effect.

The lone battery is a diversion, like what magicians use.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Smudge
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #60 on: 2018-01-22, 16:05:18 »

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Quote from: ION on 2018-01-22, 14:21:44
If you draw out the complete circuit that includes the lone battery's capacitance through the air back to the source of power, then it is not a one wire circuit, but has a completed path through said capacitance.
And even if remote from the source of power the battery still has self capacitance (to remote earth or ground).  You can get some idea of that capacitance value by comparing the size of the battery to a conductive sphere.  The self capacitance of a sphere in pF is roughly equal to its radius in cm.

Self capacitance is a difficult thing for an electronic engineer to comprehend, how can you have a one terminal capacitor?  Well just think of the other terminal being connected to a zero potential sink.

Smudge
   
img  Hoppy
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #61 on: 2018-01-22, 17:56:31 »
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Quote from: ION on 2018-01-22, 14:21:44
If you draw out the complete circuit that includes the lone battery's capacitance through the air back to the source of power, then it is not a one wire circuit, but has a completed path through said capacitance.

In this regard the circuit is a series resonant L-C

You could then replace the lone battery with a conductive object of the same conductive surface area and most likely the circuit will behave the same.

You could also try a completely dead lone battery and connect a wire between the two terminals and note the same effect.

The lone battery is a diversion, like what magicians use.

I too have been in communication with Bruce and suggested much the same as you.
   
img  muDped
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #62 on: 2018-01-22, 18:57:22 »

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Quote from: Itsu
It looks to me that the RF generated by the both switching MOSFETs is finding
its way out through the wires (antenna), but Bruce mentions that we can/should
find electrons coming OFF of the WIRE somehow.

This sounds like an adaptation of the Tesla Coil.

The coils in the wire attached to the battery are intended to function
similar to the Tesla Coil?  Would "electrons coming off the wire" be
evident by a spark perhaps?  Or corona discharge if the "wire" is
un-terminated?

That is a possibility.




---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #63 on: 2018-01-23, 14:58:33 »

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Thanks guys,

indeed a one wire circuit always has some capacitince back to ground/source, especially noticable at higher frequencies and i have
measured currents in the 12Mhz range.

MuDped,  there are no sparks coming of from the WIRE, nor a corona is seen when un-terminated, the potential is just way to low (12V)

I still have no idea how to check for "electrons coming OFF of the WIRE".


Itsu
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #64 on: 2018-01-23, 16:08:26 »
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Quote
I still have no idea how to check for "electrons coming OFF of the WIRE".

Don't feel bad.... neither does Bruce.      :'(
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #65 on: 2018-01-23, 23:48:47 »
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Since Bruce "disappeared" my comment on his thread on OU, I'll repeat it here:

"Congratulations! You've invented the Transmission Line!"   

Don't you just love censorship? By its very nature, it hides what people know to be the truth.
   
img  ion
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #66 on: 2018-01-24, 17:34:27 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Bruce completely dodged with nonsensical answers a list of questions I presented to him on OU.com (as Vortex1 my handle there)

http://overunity.com/2300/bruces-tpu-theory-and-experiments-ver-1-2/msg515721/#msg515721

done!


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #67 on: 2018-01-25, 02:42:18 »
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Did you expect something different? He's one of the "great pretenders" who acts like he has the Secret to Overunity but who in reality doesn't even know what he doesn't know.
That is, his knowledge and ability in electronics are rudimentary at best, and at worst are so outright wrong that he actually corrupts innocent minds with his BS.
   
img  ion
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #68 on: 2018-01-25, 02:55:20 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018-01-25, 02:42:18
Did you expect something different? He's one of the "great pretenders" who acts like he has the Secret to Overunity but who in reality doesn't even know what he doesn't know.
That is, his knowledge and ability in electronics are rudimentary at best, and at worst are so outright wrong that he actually corrupts innocent minds with his BS.

No. I didn't expect anything different. My post was mainly to show those innocent minds that there is a method in science which Bruce does not adhere to, content as he is with his role of snake oil salesman.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Chet K
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #69 on: 2018-02-14, 16:53:57 »
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Bruce is narrowing his focus [the gain mechanism ??]

http://overunity.com/2300/bruces-tpu-theory-and-experiments-ver-1-2/msg516550/#new

EDIT
below photo comment
 yes hard to miss, but he is not that kinda guy...

And I don't think its Freudian either...

Just one of those things.



« Last Edit: 2018-02-14, 18:40:22 by Chet K »
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #70 on: 2018-02-14, 18:13:11 »
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D'ya think?

What's the power dissipated in a 2200 ohm resistor with 180 mV across it?

(Gotta love that last photo from ariovaldo...   O0   )
   
img  Chet K
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #71 on: 2018-02-16, 22:12:48 »
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and here is a more recent reveal from Bruce
http://overunity.com/2300/bruces-tpu-theory-and-experiments-ver-1-2/msg516550/#new

Bruce
Quote
Please see the instructions below as I show you one more way to magnetically (Is it?) take power from these electrons....


Thank you,
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #72 on: 2018-02-17, 04:56:04 »
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See? There's a commonality in all these electrical attempts at OU. A flow of energy is established between an oscillatory transmitter and a more-or-less well-tuned receiver, and the hope is that somehow "electrons" or other energetic stuff will be dragged along with the established flow to increase the output of the receiver system so that it exceeds the input flow powering the transmitter. Various means are being tried, but in the long run they pretty much all boil down to .... radio. Which has a name for the wire that's only connected on one end and which picks up power: the antenna. Tesla and Marconi, between them, pretty much patented all of this high technology around a century ago. And receiving systems are getting pretty good these days. But so far nobody has been successful in getting more out than they put in. Although sometimes the input source(s) may be quite well hidden from "prying eyes".
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #73 on: 2018-02-17, 20:15:03 »
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Oh, amazing posts from Bruce TPU.

And his "student" ariovaldo has succeeded in lighting up an LED and making a voltmeter show a fraction of the input voltage, from a capacitively coupled circuit.

It's so easy you will laugh!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x2YfA9LU5s
   
img  muDped
Re: Christmas 2016 Gift From Bruce TPU « Reply #74 on: 2018-02-17, 21:23:49 »

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Quote from: Tinsel Koala
...But so far nobody has been successful in getting more out than they put in...

Except for, perhaps, Daniel Pomerleau.



---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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