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Author Topic: TinMan's "Over Faraday HV HHO production"  (Read 39822 times)

Group: Renaissance Man
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Dear Room3327.

YES PLEASE!

Anything associated with HHO production will be of interest.

I have a pet hate.... Fracking..... If we as a group can show a viable method of gas production that could stop this environmentally devastating method, I'm all ears and eyes.

Think about solar, we now have excess energy generated during the day which by using a Sabatier reactor could convert the Hydrogen into Methane and be ready for use at night. Oh and if sea water was used we could extract the dissolved CO2 ...... All very environmentally friendly.  :)

Again, please open source.

Kind regards Graham.


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To All,
Maybe no one knows about the gas separating dry cells that were open sourced about 4 or 5 years ago, I designed (or invented) a gas separating dry cell that works with as much efficiency as a normal dry cell. (not over Faraday) but produces just as much gas as a normal cell and separates it.  Just a couple weeks before I was going to release it open source another experimenter released almost an identical design to mine open source, so I backed out completely, then gas prices plummeted and I shelved all my gas research.  If this is not known to most of you I can start another thread on it and give all the details.

Room
Sorry for delay, have my wifes grand daughter here this weekend and has turned the house upside down ;)

Yes there are gas separating cells, but you have missed the point, you throw away the O2 but it was part of the power consumption (a big part). I am talking of separating and using the O2 to generate power.

If you look at the split of power on the electrodes, the anode (oxygen electrode) gives up 4 electrons to produce that gas and the cathode (hydrogen electrode) gives up 2 electrons, in total 6 electrons. This is in reverse of what you may think when evolved are 2 molecules of H to one of O.

Cathode (reduction): 2 H2O(l) + 2e− → H2(g) + 2 OH−(aq)
Anode (oxidation): 4 OH−(aq) → O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) + 4 e−
Combining either half reaction pair yields the same overall decomposition of water into oxygen and hydrogen:

Overall reaction: 2 H2O(l) → 2 H2(g) + O2(g)

The number of hydrogen molecules produced is thus twice the number of oxygen molecules. Assuming equal temperature and pressure for both gases, the produced hydrogen gas has therefore twice the volume of the produced oxygen gas. The number of electrons pushed through the water is twice the number of generated hydrogen molecules and four times the number of generated oxygen molecules.

So it is important that we can reuse those electrons, not as an oxidiser for burning, but to store it in the anode as a metal oxide and dump the energy into the power input, SMD does this in series with the 33% extra needed to get back to the original power input (theoretical), in practice you need to tune that extra input with the cycling of charge to discharge of your collection store.

Regards

Mike 8)
« Last Edit: 2016-12-03, 18:26:58 by Centraflow »


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Dear Room3327.

YES PLEASE!

Anything associated with HHO production will be of interest.

I have a pet hate.... Fracking..... If we as a group can show a viable method of gas production that could stop this environmentally devastating method, I'm all ears and eyes.

Think about solar, we now have excess energy generated during the day which by using a Sabatier reactor could convert the Hydrogen into Methane and be ready for use at night. Oh and if sea water was used we could extract the dissolved CO2 ...... All very environmentally friendly.  :)

Again, please open source.

Kind regards Graham.

Dear Graham,
 OK I will start a new thread for the 'Gas Separating Electrolysis Dry Cell' I thought everyone new about it, but I should realize by now there is so much information on the internet  no one can keep up with it and things tend to get buried.  I will post pictures and all required information as soon as I can, this week anyway.

Sorry for delay, have my wifes grand daughter here this weekend and has turned the house upside down ;)

Yes there are gas separating cells, but you have missed the point, you throw away the O2 but it was part of the power consumption (a big part). I am talking of separating and using the O2 to generate power.

If you look at the split of power on the electrodes, the anode (oxygen electrode) gives up 4 electrons to produce that gas and the cathode (hydrogen electrode) gives up 2 electrons, in total 6 electrons. This is in reverse of what you may think when evolved are 2 molecules of H to one of O.

Cathode (reduction): 2 H2O(l) + 2e− → H2(g) + 2 OH−(aq)
Anode (oxidation): 4 OH−(aq) → O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) + 4 e−
Combining either half reaction pair yields the same overall decomposition of water into oxygen and hydrogen:

Overall reaction: 2 H2O(l) → 2 H2(g) + O2(g)

The number of hydrogen molecules produced is thus twice the number of oxygen molecules. Assuming equal temperature and pressure for both gases, the produced hydrogen gas has therefore twice the volume of the produced oxygen gas. The number of electrons pushed through the water is twice the number of generated hydrogen molecules and four times the number of generated oxygen molecules.

So it is important that we can reuse those electrons, not as an oxidizer for burning, but to store it in the anode as a metal oxide and dump the energy into the power input, SMD does this in series with the 33% extra needed to get back to the original power input (theoretical), in practice you need to tune that extra input with the cycling of charge to discharge of your collection store.

Regards

Mike 8)

Dear Mike,
I don't think I have missed any point,  I said you could vent the O, not that you had too.  This dry cell keeps the 2 gases separate and prevents any recombination back into water, that seems to be one of the big problems you are having.  With the gas separate you can do anything you want to with it, like combining it back together when burning or adding something like CO2 to one of the gasses and I'm sure many other things can be done.  One thing is new cars, when fed HHO the extra O  causes problems with the computer, it see's too much O and try's to compensate for it by adding more fuel.  If you only give it the H the computer understands and cuts back on the fuel instead of adding more.  I can see many uses for this cell, like producing oxygen from water for breathing etc. So thanks for the good information but I try not to miss any points.

Cheers Room


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Quote
author=wattsup link=topic=3371.msg58539#msg58539 date=1480775142]
@PhysicsProf

Those riser tubes would have to be perforated so the conductivity could be felt between both anode and cathode.


No need to perforate the riser tubes!  See attached and note the red arrows added for clarification - the bottom of each tube is OPEN and underwater; this feature allows conductivity (of ions etc.) to permit operation of the cell, while still separating the H2 and O2. 

Further, the ratio of H2:02 by volume of gas evolved, is 2:1 for a normally operating cell.  I would suggest using a non-reactive metal for the O2 side, to prevent oxidation of the metal anode.


   

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Well due to a bad situation,i did not get into the workshop today.

Had a bit of an emergency down at the boat,with the boat next to the bosses catching fire.

By the time the fire brigade got there,it was all to late.


Brad


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Hi Brad.

It's ironic really...... All that water and yet the boat is lost to fire.

Good to read no one was injured, that's what matters !!

Kind regards, Graham.


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Further, the ratio of H2:02 by volume of gas evolved, is 2:1 for a normally operating cell.  I would suggest using a non-reactive metal for the O2 side, to prevent oxidation of the metal anode.

The ratio of 2:1 is true, the volume of gas evolved is not. In order to be true the gas volume of Hydrogen and Oxygen at room temperature and atmospheric pressure must be of the same ratio, and they are not:

http://www.airproducts.com/products/Gases/gas-facts/conversion-formulas/weight-and-volume-equivalents/hydrogen.aspx

http://www.airproducts.com/products/Gases/gas-facts/conversion-formulas/weight-and-volume-equivalents/oxygen.aspx


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Here is an excellent pdf on electrolysis, why are nearly all the scientists Chinese? well at least these are in your neck of the woods, Australia O0

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Ok,so after a couple of busy weeks,i mannaged to get into the workshop today,and complete the test bed.
Also have a base line of performance for the cell,using a steady and pulsed DC current,at low voltages.

No difference in output or MMW was noted using either pulsed or straight/continuous current at 50Hz
Voltage and current was measured by both DMMs and scope.
Some test result examples.
Remember,the voltage is across the cell,and not each neutral plate set.

14.45v @ 3.1amps= MMW of 5.58
15.4v @ 5.84amps= MMW of 5.38
15.6v @ 7.1amps= MMW of 5.24

Gas temperature remains at 26*C for all tests.

Interesting to note that the efficiency drops as the current value rises.

Video up within the next few days,as still have a bit of tidying up to do.


Brad


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Quote from: TinMan
Interesting to note that the efficiency drops as the current value rises.

Excellent observation TinMan!  It does indeed.

Which raises the question: "If current is decreased will efficiency
increase even more?"

Do you recall when electrolyzers were a really "hot topic"
several years back and those who were "in the know"
would recommend a maximum current of approx. 100mA.
per square inch of plate area?


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Excellent observation TinMan!  It does indeed.

Which raises the question: "If current is decreased will efficiency
increase even more?"


Do you recall when electrolyzers were a really "hot topic"
several years back and those who were "in the know"
would recommend a maximum current of approx. 100mA.
per square inch of plate area?

That is my claim-decrease current,and increase voltage, for better efficiency.

Even 100mA is far two much- per square inch of plate area.
We need to be down close to 10mA per square inch.


Brad


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  I'm looking forward to your video, TinMan - thanks for keeping us up to date on your progress - Wow!
   

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That is my claim-decrease current,and increase voltage, for better efficiency.

Even 100mA is far two much- per square inch of plate area.
We need to be down close to 10mA per square inch.


Brad

Video not done yet-cant seem to get 20 minutes to my self ATM.
Very busy at work,and also family xmas stuff going on as well.

I also have some big new's,that is going to slow things down for a while.
We (my wife and myself) are moving into a new home. This is happening between the 6th and 10th of January.
But i have so much stuff here,that the cleanup starts now.

We have been looking for a place like this for a long time now,and today we received the good new's--the house is ours.
When you look at the pics,you will see why we are moving--note the size of one (yes, one of)the workshops--there are three in total,along with a small building off to the side,that will make an excellent lab.

I will do as much as time permit's,on the project ,before the shift.
Once we make the shift,there will be a delay in getting the internet/phone back up and running---very slow to get phones connected here in WA.

So,my apologies for any delays in the project,but this opportunity was to good to miss.


Brad


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Wow Brad,  looking great.

You even got your own Zen corner for meditation when things get chaotic.


Congrats,   Itsu
   

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Wow Brad,  looking great.

You even got your own Zen corner for meditation when things get chaotic.


Congrats,   Itsu

Zen corner?. You mean the pizza oven ?

I have needed this big workshop for some time now,and now i can get things done.

Once the HHO system is complete,it will be getting installed into a small car.
I have already bought the vehicle it is to be installed into,and it's awaiting the fit out.

This project will be going all the way to the road.

I have also ordered the fuel consumption analyzer from my work place  O0


Brad


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looks like Palace grounds !!

and the shop a dream come true !

 O0
   

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Zen corner?. You mean the pizza oven ?

 ;D  the pizza oven is heavenly too,   no, i meant the place at the pool.

Itsu
   

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 ;D  the pizza oven is heavenly too,   no, i meant the place at the pool.

Itsu

Ah yes-the pool.  O0

Just to the left(out of picture frame),is a below ground spa as well--all heated.

Our daughter has already decided that she is having her wedding there--and we havnt even moved in yet lol.

The block size is 1 acre--so enough room to store lots of junk.  O0


Brad


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  Congratulations, TinMan!  wow, what a place!
   
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First up-the standard 12 volt automotive battery is a wet cell design-not a dry cell.
The automotive battery is a flooded cell battery,where all of the plate surfaces are covered in an electrolyte-even though each of the 6 cells in the battery are liquid isolated from each other. So you basically have 6 of 2 plate wet cells in series.

Second-the automotive battery is designed to store the energy given within the cell material,and not dissipate the energy into the production of HHO gas-although some hydrogen gas is
   

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Hi guy's.
Sorry it's been so long since my last post,but i have been flat out since xmas.

BTW-a late Merry Xmas to all-and happy new year.

As most of you know,we were doing a big shift to a new home.
Just finished moving the last of our stuff today--been at it for 5 days straight now.
Most everything is still in boxes ATM,and as you can see in the pic below,i have a lot of un-packing and sorting to do before the new workshop is up and running.

Anyway,i will be back at it as soon as i can,and will continue on where we left off with the HV HHO setup.

We have no phone or internet ATM,but should be up in a couple of weeks--slow here in Oz with new connections.
ATM i am using my mobile phone as a modem,but only for short post's,as it cost to much in way of data ,using the mobile as an internet connection.

@ Chet
I will PM you my new phone number as soon as i get it.


Brad


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thread seems dormant for a long time . Anyway Brad you recall a video I posted regarding santilli ? This is from the same source. This seems the appropriate place for it even if it lies mouldering some one researching the topic might have use . I've taken it off DVD trascribed and uploaded so for your consideration

https://vimeo.com/254500375

Hope the moving went well 
 kind regards Duncan


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