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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration  (Read 235723 times)
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img  verpies
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #350 on: 2016-08-11, 11:27:54 »

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Quote from: poynt99 on 2016-08-10, 23:47:42
1.2kW?  :o
That ought to get you around the earth a few times.
No, I'd need 1.21GW for that.
Actually, I was using only 1kW fed into a Litz coil for some nuclear resonance experiments and I hope that much RF never radiated out of the room.
« Last Edit: 2016-08-11, 11:55:50 by verpies »
   
img  K4zep
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #351 on: 2016-08-11, 13:29:24 »
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Quote from: Chet K on 2016-08-11, 08:26:23
Tinsel
Quote

No video from me, my camcorder battery is kaput.
 -------

not good

we have to fix that...

please post a link for a replacement battery

All,

All I'll say is Parasitic capacitances, capacitive reactance in Mosfet between two substrates. The test means nothing.
Take that blob of a MOSFET and replace it was a capacitor of the correct value in series with the LED.  Same effect.  C.C
 

Ben K4ZEP

   
img  ion
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #352 on: 2016-08-11, 16:11:03 »
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It's turtles all the way down
You can't make accurate power measurements with LED brightness.

Sweep it in LTSpice or use this ckt.

You can choose to short the resistor on the leg not being tested for higher accuracy.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Itsu
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #353 on: 2016-08-11, 16:44:28 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2016-08-11, 05:17:47
@Itsu

Could you put together a quick video showing the gate leakage of any N-Ch Power MOSFET in the circuit below ?
No power supply. Just program your FG to 1MHz square wave at 10V amplitude. Use a red LED (observe its polarity).


I followed that little diagram (10V pp  meaning +5V/-5V at 1MHz, red lead to gate) and used severall high power MOSFET's and IGBT's to show how they leak.

MOSFETs used in sequence are:

FQA11N90C
IRFP260N
IRFP4668
IRFP460
47N60C3    (i had to increase the amplitude to 13V pp to see a dimm light in the led)


IGBT's used:

G40N60
G4PH30K

 

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av53ZMeWQ-k


Regards Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #354 on: 2016-08-11, 17:09:30 »

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Quote from: K4zep on 2016-08-11, 13:29:24
All I'll say is Parasitic capacitances, capacitive reactance in Mosfet between two substrates. The test means nothing.
Take that blob of a MOSFET and replace it was a capacitor of the correct value in series with the LED.  Same effect.  C.C
I agree except for, that it "means nothing".

The tests done by Tinsel, Itsu and myself clearly demonstrate, that these  "Parasitic Capacitances" exist in all transistors and are not negligible as they can transfer significant energy from the gate driver to the drain-source circuit.
As the dv/dt increases, the magnitude of this leakage, also increases. 
We tried it with only 10V/μs pulses and in the MIT device some MOSFETs are subjected to 600V/μs pulses, so the gate power leakage in the MIT can be expected to be 602 higher.

All of this does not mean nothing - it means that the energy delivered by the MOSFET gate drivers is not negligible and can contribute Watts to the output circuit, thus it must be accounted for in Graham's MIT device.
« Last Edit: 2016-08-11, 17:34:48 by verpies »
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #355 on: 2016-08-11, 17:52:36 »

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Quote from: ION on 2016-08-11, 16:11:03
You can't make accurate power measurements with LED brightness.
I know.  That test was only qualitative.  It merely demonstrated, that the gate leakage exists and at 10V/μs is significant to light up a LED.

The quantitative leakage test should be done by Graham at the actual dv/dt conditions that occur in his circuit.
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #356 on: 2016-08-11, 21:03:10 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2016-08-11, 17:52:36
I know.  That test was only qualitative.  It merely demonstrated, that the gate leakage exists and at 10V/μs is significant to light up a LED.

The quantitative leakage test should be done by Graham at the actual dv/dt conditions that occur in his circuit.

Yes, I'm sure you do know, I only posted that circuit so that Itsu or other interested persons could get some real numbers, and see the difference between source and drain injection on a two channel scope.

I'll check it in a simulation as time permits. Thanks for bringing it up.

One reason why I say a simple $20 Kill-A-Watt meter on his mains input could have helped to convince (or not) depending on the total input power reading.


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img  muDped
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #357 on: 2016-08-11, 21:23:36 »

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Now you're getting somewhere with this analysis!

Excellent Sleuthing work gentlemen!

Once again, the value of "in depth knowledge" proves
its remarkable importance.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  ion
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #358 on: 2016-08-11, 22:34:53 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Here's an LTSpice file as a starting point for those that want to play with / modify   gate injection tests.

I lack the skill just yet to do really good power studies so I'll leave that to Poynt and partzman and any other interested parties.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  ion
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #359 on: 2016-08-11, 22:45:07 »
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Quote from: muDped on 2016-08-11, 21:23:36
Now you're getting somewhere with this analysis!

Excellent Sleuthing work gentlemen!

Once again, the value of "in depth knowledge" proves
its remarkable importance.

Agreed, muDped, in depth knowledge is a wonderful thing as is the common sense that does not choose ignore the "500 lb gorilla"* in the room.

(*lack of mains input power measurement)
« Last Edit: 2016-08-11, 23:43:50 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Spokane 1
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #360 on: 2016-08-11, 23:54:30 »
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Dear All,

Here is my take on one conceptual schematic for the Synchronous Diode sub-circuit. Please review and make constructive comments from this vast in depth knowledge base.

Spokane1
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #361 on: 2016-08-12, 00:11:27 »
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Quote from: ION on 2016-08-11, 22:45:07
Agreed, muDped, in depth knowledge is a wonderful thing as is the common sense that does not choose ignore the "500 lb gorilla"* in the room.

(*lack of mains input power measurement)

I think we all understand that a measurement of total mains input power would show much more than the measly 10 Watts or so output at the bulb.

And also, most of us probably understand that the claim made by the publishers of the video that this device gives a "measured out at 570% more output than the input he paid for" is just typical exaggerated marketing hype, since most people would think that "the input he (or someone) paid for" means just that: the mains power usage that shows up on the electric bill.

Whether or not someone may think it is legitimate only to consider as "input" the direct input at the primary of the transformer, the marketing claims made to sell the video are unsupported by any evidence.... and some of us know why that is.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #362 on: 2016-08-12, 01:56:01 »
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It would be interesting to see the various input power measurements taken at different points and a final in to out figure based on an entire device that can run from a bank of batteries or similar.

If Graham is so clever then he must be aware of these power measurement nuances to look out for, which to me would indicate intentional deception, regardless of weather he actually spoke a claim of OU in clear terms the claim would still appear to be made by him in a roundabout way.

If it is shown to be well under OU with accepted accurate measurement protocols then I would say the behaviour of the people involved in the sales around the device- Video's ect, would be bordering on criminal. Without the OU hype I doubt they would sell much associated merchandise.

It fair dinkum looks like another con to me.

..
   
img  verpies
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #363 on: 2016-08-12, 05:06:24 »

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Quote from: Farmhand on 2016-08-12, 01:56:01
If Graham is so clever then he must be aware of these power measurement nuances to look out for, which to me would indicate intentional deception,
Indeed, he is well versed in these techniques but he might have trivialized the energy leaked by the MOSFET gates and did not even bother to measure it.
I've learned enough about his character over the years that I would not accuse him easily of intentional deception.  I'd rather lean toward TK's tag line:  "The easiest person to fool is yourself".

Quote from: Farmhand on 2016-08-12, 01:56:01
I would say the behavior of the people involved in the sales around the device- Video's ect, would be bordering on criminal. Without the OU hype I doubt they would sell much associated merchandise.
Note that these people are not the same as Graham G.  Vultures are abundant.

Quote from: Farmhand on 2016-08-12, 01:56:01
It fair dinkum looks like another con to me.
In my opinion the jury is still out.
There is no reason to be that hard on Graham G..
   
img  verpies
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #364 on: 2016-08-12, 05:24:34 »

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Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2016-08-11, 23:54:30
Here is my take on one conceptual schematic for the Synchronous Diode sub-circuit. Please review and make constructive comments from this vast in depth knowledge base.
Shouldn't the winding powering the ±5V regulators be center-tapped or have a different diode arrangement ?

Anyway, measuring the DC energy flow out of the outputs of these 12V and ±5V regulators to the gate driver would be more fair than measuring it at their inputs (or before the isolation transformer) because it would not include their losses, which are inherently high for such regulators.

It would be nice to do power measurement directly at the MOSFET gate terminals, but doing so would be very hard to do, due to the potentials involved, lack of stable ground and high crest factor waveforms appearing there.
This is probably the reason why Graham has not done these measurements.  They are hard to do after the isolation transformer and before the transformer, these measurements would be very unfair because of low-efficiency of the entire DC-DC converter including linear regulators downstream.

If you are in contact with Graham, ask him to measure the DC current coming out of these linear regulators with a calibrated isolated current probe or even a floating ammeter.
In case of a digital ammeter, I would be afraid that when the secondary of the MI Transformer is open-circuited, the entire secondary side of the DC-DC converter violently swings in less than microsecond by many hundreds of Volts ...and interferes with the operation of a digital electronics inside the meter, which becomes a transmitting antenna during that period.

...and please send Graham the link to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av53ZMeWQ-k
« Last Edit: 2016-08-12, 05:55:50 by verpies »
   
img  muDped
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #365 on: 2016-08-12, 07:33:21 »

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Quote from: Verpies
In my opinion the jury is still out.
There is no reason to be that hard on Graham G..

In the interest of Full Disclosure and Transparency it would
be interesting to discover what sort of remuneration each of
the participants in the operation will receive.

The "con" may be the work of others who enticed Graham to
participate as a demonstrator in that phase of the operation.
In other words, his work may be exploited for gain by clever
organizers.  It would not be the first time.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Smudge
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #366 on: 2016-08-12, 16:34:46 »

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Having just now viewed the video there is something that no one has commented upon, and that is the part where he shows the transformer output voltage as a negative plateau over most of the cycle followed by a sharp positive spike.  He then integrates this to get the flux waveform as a sawtooth.  That flux is different to the primary flux obtained by integrating the primary voltage.  So it appears that there is flux leakage playing a major role in this.  More later when I have analyzed this new information.

Smudge 
   
img  ion
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #367 on: 2016-08-12, 16:46:56 »
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Quote from: muDped on 2016-08-12, 07:33:21
In the interest of Full Disclosure and Transparency it would
be interesting to discover what sort of remuneration each of
the participants in the operation will receive.

The "con" may be the work of others who enticed Graham to
participate as a demonstrator in that phase of the operation.
In other words, his work may be exploited for gain by clever
organizers.  It would not be the first time.

To be enticed once to join the ranks of such men can be excused, however a long association that goes back to 2007 or earlier with A and P raises an eyebrow or two. Then there are the non-working patents assigned to Chava aka Mark G., another questionable character in the drama.

Of course there are those that know all this and continue to "soldier on" with the MIT. They know things that I am not privy to concerning GG and his character so I will trust their knowledge.

Therefore my attitude is wait and see, contribute where I can, get inside GG's head by reading all that I can find that he has written or spoken in videos. Body language can be very revealing.

For all I know at this point GG may be an honest guy with high ideals that has just been enticed and used by the wolves. Maybe a little or a lot naive to the fact that there is much trickery in the business world.

His heart seems to be in the right place. In the video he says something to the effect (56:22 to 57:11) "You gotta give it away, otherwise you are a schmuck", but admits to almost changing his mind about doing the conference.

He seems to strongly believe in total open source, yet has changed his position after the conference. Understood, since he had mixed feelings about doing the conference in the first place.
« Last Edit: 2016-08-12, 17:24:02 by ION »


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Spokane 1
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #368 on: 2016-08-12, 16:49:01 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2016-08-12, 05:24:34
Shouldn't the winding powering the ±5V regulators be center-tapped or have a different diode arrangement ?


Dear verpies,

I agree with you. A center tapped secondary would make the reverse engineering effort simpler.  The problem is that I can't see a center tap connection on that torrid transformer. Perhaps Graham is using some king of forward converter topology that I am not familiar with.

Do you have any ideas that would match with the components shown?

Spokane1
   
img  ion
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #369 on: 2016-08-12, 17:29:46 »
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Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2016-08-12, 16:49:01
Dear verpies,

I agree with you. A center tapped secondary would make the reverse engineering effort simpler.  The problem is that I can't see a center tap connection on that torrid transformer. Perhaps Graham is using some king of forward converter topology that I am not familiar with.

Do you have any ideas that would match with the components shown?

Spokane1

Typically the -5 volt supply is a light current draw bias supply so can be derived without a center tapped transformer by using the forward pulse. I have done this with success in the past.

If it has not already been mentioned, it appears the series Zener to the optoisolator on the -5 supply is reversed.

Since the enable input to the gating chip IXDD614PI wants to be high to allow pulses to the FET driving the transformer, it appears the circuit is configured to shut down should there be a excess voltage on one of the power supply outputs.

Good work on the schematic.



---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Spokane 1
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #370 on: 2016-08-12, 17:30:03 »
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Quote from: ION on 2016-08-12, 16:46:56

His heart seems to be in the right place. In the video he says something to the effect "I want to share this with the world, and if I didn't I'd be a schmuck and I don't want to be a schmuck".

He seems to strongly believe in total open source, yet has changed his position after the conference. Puzzling.

Dear ION,

I find that sudden change in attitude (only one day after the conference) puzzling as well.  Your observation brings up a situation that I haven't considered before. Maybe someone had put the collar on him between the time the conference ended and when I called him the Monday evening after.

I'm sure all the reasons that he gave me were "The reasons that sound good - then there is the real reason".   If he had made the big breakthrough 3 weeks before the conference then he would have had lots of time to consider the degree of his intended disclosure. All the issues that he brought up about the landlord, family finances, and potential profit would have been the same before the conference as they were a day after.

At the conference, even after his presentation the next day he was freely sharing technical details with those who asked (mostly Reiyuki), then no less than 24 hours later he has this big turnaround. I'm starting to smell a rat - thanks to your comment.

All it would take would be one veiled threat via a phone call that mentioned his family and he would clam up in a heart beat. 

When I came over to his house a week later to drop off the Litz wire. He was glad to talk about his circuit, but I didn't have the understanding to really know what to ask.  He was going to take a call from his son and stepped  outside. I asked him if I could take some photos in his absence, he said OK. So for about 5 minutes I took as many close ups as I could. He came back and seemed nervous as if he was having to seriously reconsider what he had just offered. I quit taking photos as soon as he returned. I would have taken a hundred more.

He had been working on his circuit and did talk about certain improvements that he was planning to make. It was obvious that he was scanning different frequencies and making adjustments to the various pulse widths using signal generators.

Yes, I agree with you. Something is not right in this picture.  He spent several minutes making a public declaration about his intent to make all this stuff Open Source. He even had previously purchased a particular Internet site to place all this material on.

What would cause a person to make such a sudden turn around?

Spokane1
   
img  ion
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #371 on: 2016-08-12, 18:01:25 »
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Spokane1 said:

Quote
What would cause a person to make such a sudden turn around?

Maybe he was reminded of the fine print in his contract with A and P, that they would own the rights to publish and also benefit from any subsequent disclosure information. (the collar you spoke of).

Genius technical types with high ideals rarely read fine print, tending to trust everyone is like them. They are often to busy with their work and a head full of ideas. Enter the jackals.

Just a guess, I seriously doubt MIB's are involved, as everything is still "for sale".

As for his open source website, I doubt anything new will be put there soon as that may violate his contract.
Maybe just some old stuff approved by A and P in order to "grease the skids".

I see another "advanced handbook" coming out soon.

GG is caught between a rock and a hard place, I don't envy him, especially if he really has the high ideals we see in the video.





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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Spokane 1
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #372 on: 2016-08-12, 19:35:00 »
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Quote from: ION on 2016-08-12, 18:01:25
Spokane1 said:

Just a guess, I seriously doubt MIB's are involved, as everything is still "for sale".


Dear ION,

I agree with you. If the real MIB were involved then by the time I got there a week later everything in his shop would be gone and possibly his person to boot.

If someone did exert this kind of control it appears that it is in their best interests to have him continue as before - unfunded.

If A+P were claiming some kind of exclusive publishing rights, which is possible, then it would be no big deal - at least to me - to have said so.

What is different in this story is that Graham avoided discussing the actual performance measures of his machine before the conference presentation. He wanted to make it a surprise (which it was). The unknown parties (if they exist) would have had to act pretty quick. That suggests that whomever (if they exist) were probably in the audience.

Putting a price tag on his work was more my idea than his. We both know that nobody is going to purchase such an infant technology at this stage.  This was an attempt to reduce all the "joint venture" proposals that crop up with this kind of disclosure.

Spokane1
   
img  ion
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #373 on: 2016-08-12, 20:19:44 »
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Dear Spokan1

Thanks for the extra insight and all your hard work on this project. If you have not already offered the photos you took at his home will you be doing that, or are those photos confidential?

I have attached a slightly revised version of your drawing with the Zener diodes on the minus five supply that I think should be reversed circled in red.

AS time permits I will work up a schematic of how the minus five should be derived. There are two methods, forward pulse and charge pump. I doubt that it is the charge pump method as that would require two diodes and two capacitors, whereas the forward pulse method uses one diode, one capacitor.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  ion
Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #374 on: 2016-08-12, 21:12:03 »
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Dear Spokane1

Attached are two methods to generate a negative supply. Each has merits and drawbacks. Just roughed in (not optimized) and tested in LTSpice.

Regulators not shown for simplicity, but utilize the raw outputs. You should pick the one that best seems to match the photos.

Graham could have eliminated a lot of extra complexity by closing the loop and dispensing with the regulators, but I guess he had his reasons.



---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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