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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration  (Read 235725 times)
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #25 on: 2016-07-15, 01:06:03 »

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Quote from: Reiyuki on 2016-07-14, 20:32:47
When current's flowing through a coil, any time you open that circuit you get a big voltage spike.

Is this statement correct ?

Seems to me that in order for current to 'flow' the circuit must be open to begin with.

A static potential could surge if suddenly released from the tank, and conversely it could surge if suddenly prevented from flowing by closing the circuit.

I don't see how you can have a voltage (electrostatic pressure) spike by opening a circuit that is already open..

Unless it is being chopped very rapidly on the output side of the circuit maintaining some back pressure resistance to flow ?


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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #26 on: 2016-07-15, 01:36:02 »
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Rei

Welcome to the forum and thank you for taking the time to attend the conference and also for your diligent gathering of information.

From the photos, I could not tell if the ferrite gaps were adjustable in any manner. I was guessing that the nylon rods and plexiglass holders could possibly allow for some gap or position adjustment.

Any comments on that?

Kind Regards
ION


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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #27 on: 2016-07-15, 02:02:27 »

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Quote from: ION on 2016-07-15, 01:36:02
Rei

Welcome to the forum and thank you for taking the time to attend the conference and also for your diligent gathering of information.

From the photos, I could not tell if the ferrite gaps were adjustable in any manner. I was guessing that the nylon rods and plexiglass holders could possibly allow for some gap or position adjustment.

Any comments on that?

Kind Regards
ION


Between the two ferrites, I believe it was 2ea 5mil mylar sheets, so 10mil spacing.  The ceramic magnets were also gapped in a couple places, and the variable nylon mount screws suggests he thought there was some 'space tuning' involed.

Also reminding that the top(input) was high permeability and the lower (output) was low permeability.      He said the strip of magnets on the top was to presaturate the top ferrite 'at the knee' of the BH curve.


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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #28 on: 2016-07-15, 13:15:49 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I'm a little confused; where does the COP of 1.03 come from when there are claims of Pin=0W and Pout=9W?


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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #29 on: 2016-07-15, 15:23:03 »

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Quote from: poynt99 on 2016-07-15, 13:15:49
I'm a little confused; where does the COP of 1.03 come from when there are claims of Pin=0W and Pout=9W?
That comes from Reiyuki's first post on energetic forum.  A later post from Spokane1 stated that Graham had demonstrated at the previous year's conference a different transformer system that showed the small COP.  He knows Graham, lives in the same town (Spokane) and helped Graham set up his new design at this latest conference, and it is he who said the Pin=0W and Pout=9W.  Then a later post from Reiyuki states output range 5-10 watts with input tuned allowing COP to be undefined or negative.

To help me get to grips with the magnetic system I have sketched the layout see image below.  I think Reiyuki may be wrong with his interpretation of the direction of the sideways magnets.  It makes more sense if they create a crossed field and that is what I show in my image.  My thoughts are then associated with the sideways static magnetization vector being driven to precess as shown in the second image.  Because the top arm of the core is biased at its saturation knee, the AC drive on the primary will result in unidirectional field pulses driven round the rest of the core.  Those pulses drive the precession.  Maybe there is some lag in the response to those pulses, and Graham's circuitry is tuned to capture the resulting delayed magnetization pulses arriving in the bottom low perm core.  Just food for thought.

Smudge 
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #30 on: 2016-07-15, 16:24:22 »

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I have just noticed that the energetic forum thread started on the day of last year's conference (where Graham presented his low COP transformer) then jumps to this year's conference that took place just recently (where Graham presented his new infinity COP device).  Perhaps that explains why we have different COP's mentioned.  It is that new design in which we are interested.

Smudge
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #31 on: 2016-07-15, 16:42:53 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
It would be nice to see a confirmed block diagram of his setup and the measurement points, along with wave forms etc. Does anyone know if they exist?

What frequency is the device operating at?


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #32 on: 2016-07-15, 17:36:08 »

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Quote from: poynt99
It would be nice to see a confirmed block diagram of his setup and the measurement points, along with wave forms etc. Does anyone know if they exist?

What frequency is the device operating at?

 Supposedly, the effect would manifest around 20kcps-50kcps.  At presentation, I believe it was tuned around 50kcps.


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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #33 on: 2016-07-15, 19:14:41 »

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Quote from: poynt99 on 2016-07-15, 16:42:53
It would be nice to see a confirmed block diagram of his setup and the measurement points, along with wave forms etc. Does anyone know if they exist?

What frequency is the device operating at?
The only waveforms I've seen were in a link posted earlier in this thread, copy attached.  From the cursor positions it looks like 20 uS covers one sine wave input cycle plus one half cycle of dead time.  That's a rep rate of 50KHz but the sine wave is 75KHz.

Smudge
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #34 on: 2016-07-15, 19:53:13 »

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Having used saturating cores to get fast pulses in radar modulators, and being aware of saturation as a pulse sharpener, it strikes me that he could be using saturation to get a fast magnetic impulse.  That would fit with his "magnetic implosion" for describing the transformer.  Then that fast impulse applied to the cross-field area could "kick" it into precessional oscillation.  Just another thought.

Smudge
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #35 on: 2016-07-15, 20:22:08 »

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Just looked at some images and Reiyuki is correct with his interpretation of the sideways magnets.  There is not a crossed field since the field both sides points into the core.  I would guess that the core between those side magnets is saturated near the surface but not at the center.  There could be interesting things happening there with propagation of magnetic impulses through this central channel.

Smudge 
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #36 on: 2016-07-15, 21:12:17 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Thanks Reiyuki and smudge.

50kHz should make power measurements relatively easy.  :)


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #37 on: 2016-07-15, 21:23:11 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
FYI,

I added all the pics (available so far) to the first post.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #38 on: 2016-07-17, 00:28:34 »
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Quote from: Reiyuki on 2016-07-15, 17:36:08
Supposedly, the effect would manifest around 20kcps-50kcps.  At presentation, I believe it was tuned around 50kcps.

During the presentation, do you recall if Graham was taking the input power measurements at the DC source or were they taken farther downstream in the input switching circuitry?

pm
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #39 on: 2016-07-17, 00:56:43 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2016-07-17, 00:28:34
During the presentation, do you recall if Graham was taking the input power measurements at the DC source or were they taken farther downstream in the input switching circuitry?

pm

Poynt had the same questions :).   Input was measured just before the primaries, output was measured just after the secondary, on the output capacitor bank and the load.
Two methods were used, one was with a 4 channel scope, differential volt probes, precision hall current sensors, and the scope's internal math.  The other was a pair of precision load meters, and during the presentation they were within a fraction of a watt from each other.


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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #40 on: 2016-07-17, 16:00:38 »
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Quote from: Reiyuki on 2016-07-17, 00:56:43
Poynt had the same questions :).   Input was measured just before the primaries, output was measured just after the secondary, on the output capacitor bank and the load.
Two methods were used, one was with a 4 channel scope, differential volt probes, precision hall current sensors, and the scope's internal math.  The other was a pair of precision load meters, and during the presentation they were within a fraction of a watt from each other.

OK thanks Reiyuki!

Another question that stems from my somewhat color blindness, I've attached a waveform copy with what I think are the correct ID's for each trace but I'm not sure. Would you confirm or correct this please?

Thanks again,
pm
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #41 on: 2016-07-17, 17:22:04 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2016-07-17, 16:00:38
Another question that stems from my somewhat color blindness, I've attached a waveform copy with what I think are the correct ID's for each trace but I'm not sure. Would you confirm or correct this please?

That's correct.


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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #42 on: 2016-07-18, 15:13:01 »

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Here is my analysis of the waveforms supplied by Reiyuki.  Enjoy!

Smudge
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #43 on: 2016-07-18, 16:44:17 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2016-07-18, 15:13:01
Here is my analysis of the waveforms supplied by Reiyuki.  Enjoy!

Smudge

Thanks for the great analysis! The input H bridge would make it easy to freeze the primary current.

The output current during the no load connection is definitely strange and at first glance appears to possibly be a resonant current but where could this be measured or sensed? Or is this waveform possibly output voltage?

pm
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #44 on: 2016-07-18, 19:59:50 »

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Yes I wondered whether it was output voltage, that would make more sense.  Interestingly, because during that load period the core is saturated up top somewhere, the output could be decoupled from the input.

Smudge
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #45 on: 2016-07-19, 02:33:04 »

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I'm firing up a Google drive folder so we can better coordinate notes/analysis/datasheets/schematics/etc.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B0_1dJJ_ezEmUDlsNDZUYWlrbE0


Anyone just PM or email me if they want write access to contribute/organize.


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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #46 on: 2016-07-19, 13:56:47 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2016-07-18, 19:59:50
Yes I wondered whether it was output voltage, that would make more sense.  Interestingly, because during that load period the core is saturated up top somewhere, the output could be decoupled from the input.

Smudge

That is an interesting thought!  Also assuming that the upper core half is saturated during the apparent current clamped time, what is causing the current to increase during that same time period? This would seem to indicate that energy is supplied to the primary from a supply source or ....? If the output action is the cause of the increase, then theoretically once started, there would be no outside power needed on the primary!?!

I think the core assembly itself is possible to simulate using gyrator-capacitance modeling where capacitors are used to model the flux paths. This would allow the modeling of cores with different ur's, gaps, leakage inductances, and saturation characteristics with non-linear capacitances. What isn't clear is how one would model the PM's that face the core!

pm
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #47 on: 2016-07-19, 15:59:06 »

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Looking at Reiyuki's Unofficial (probably incorrect) diagram (his words) I see that he refers to the output being interrupted for between 50nS and 1uS.  That throws a different light on the output current waveform, see image below.  I now have the view that the load is connected for most of the time, with only a small interrupt.  It is interesting that the negative portions of the load current are roughly following the negative portions of the input current.  During the interrupt period the load current drops, then there is a recovery period during which the input voltage is at zero.  Perhaps the zero level for that current waveform is near its lower level, making most of the waveform positive????.  In any case the combination of load interrupt, input voltage dwell and core saturation is causing the input current to be reactive and therefore not draw power.  Can't see why this should be but the brain cells are still working on this.

Smudge
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #48 on: 2016-07-19, 19:26:54 »
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Reiyuki,

Thanks for posting the info on the google drive and I have a question regarding the raw photo "notes4.jpg".  I assume this is taken from your notes while questioning Graham on the synchronous rectification and it raises a question for me.  As shown, the Cree mosfet substrate diode would be the conducting element for current flow to the output with the gate drive being off.  I am trying to tie in how this might relate to Smudge's recent post on the near continuous output current with the short interruption period so do you think this is a relatively accurate generalized output circuit description?

pm
   
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Re: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration « Reply #49 on: 2016-07-19, 21:11:14 »
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Quote from: Chet K on 2016-07-12, 11:10:22
Graham seems to make an amazing impression on the people he meets , and he is Open sourcing his work too !!
Our world needs more men Like this !


Quote from: TinMan on 2016-07-12, 15:06:26


Oh well,maybe Graham will share a bit here on this forum,and give us some means of replicating his transformer.


Brad

Good day all:
For those who do not read at EnergicForum I post this from today:

Quote from: Spokane1;290549
Fellow Researchers:

I have had the pleasure to be in contact with Graham Gunderson and if I recall his words correctly he wishes to pass on these comments.

1. He encourages researchers to explore and reproduce his work to date, however he plans several improvement and modifications to the device that was presented at the conference. So, it will be a moving target. To him there was no point in drafting schematics when he plans to change every thing. (The working technology is less than a month old)

2. He will eventually post on his web site some written material when he gets around to it.

3. He doesn't want to answer a lot of technical questions or teach people advanced electronics (and what he is doing is advanced in some areas). This is a continuing work in progress and not a finished product. He would rather be undisturbed for a few months.

4. He doesn't plan to do another demonstration until he can "Close the Loop"

5. He doesn't know why this system works since its performance was way above any of his expectations. He was hoping for a COP of 1.05. He does have some interesting measurement observations which I shall share later.

6. He would like to move into small manufacturing by selling his circuit boards and other subsystems for general OU work, along with white papers and plans. Maybe some assembled modules. He would also like to advance his technical interests in music.

7. For those of you with the Big Bucks (Probably nobody here) the technology is for sale in this infant form for someone who has the means to take a big gamble.

Sticker price $2 million US Lump sum (this is so he can end up with $1 million after taxes)

This includes 90% of the rights to the provisional patent, copies of all lab notes and written material, data sheets, catalog cuts, etc. The operating prototype as it was shown at the convention w/ possible improvements. And 40 hours of training.  This quote is good for 30 days  (until Aug. 19, 2016)

Offer does not include the instrumentation.

The price will increase as successful replications, improvements, performance enhancements, university demonstrations, and inflation dictates.


This could turn in to one great adventure.

Mark McKay, PE

take care, peace
lost_bro
   
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