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Author Topic: Richard Clem motor. (Read 10915 times)

Grumage	Richard Clem motor. « on: 2015-11-21, 19:40:44 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2765	Dear All. As most of you are aware I'm more at home with a Lathe than an Oscilloscope ! I read about the Clem motor many years ago and often wondered how the conical portion could be reproduced. well, I have a plan....... My intermediate Lathe is a Harrison L5 which came with a very useful extra, a taper turning attachment. This allows me to machine a piece of material to a conical shape. It dawned on me that once the taper was created using fine feed I could then go into screwcutting mode and put the spiral groove, possibly 8 of them ( using dial index method ) because the cutting tool would still be influenced by the TT attachment. Having had a wealth of experience with scale IC engines, the smaller they are the more difficult they become to get going I am wondering what size I should make the cone ? Chet suggested I launch this thread so OUR members could add any further, possibly missing info to this subject. Cheers Grum. ------------------------ Richard Clem motor. L5.jpg (96.17 kB, 862x631 - viewed 1974 times.) --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Chet K	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #1 on: 2015-11-21, 21:15:52 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Grum that "intermediate"Lathe is very sexy... can you see my Green tint from there ? [Green with envy].

CITFTA	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #2 on: 2015-11-21, 21:53:19 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 782 Believing in something false doesn't make it true.	Hi Grum, I am glad to see someone attempting this build that has the proper equipment to give it a good try. I have a small CNC lathe but it doesn't have an encoder on the spindle so I can't cut threads. I could program the taper part ok but my lathe only has a 6 inch swing over the bed so my attempt would be probably too small to work properly. I have some ideas of how the fluid path should be to get the Clem engine to work. I base these ideas on several years experience working on industrial machine tools that had a lot of hydraulic systems on them. I also was a volunteer firefighter for over 26 years and the last ten years trained other in how the pumps worked and friction loss and all that good stuff. I have attached a very crude drawing of how I think the fluid path should be. I believe the inlet has to be bigger than the outlet. I also believe there can be no sharp bends in the fluid path. In my drawing I did not show the support cone to make it easier to understand my crude drawing. I did show where the support shaft would be for the cone and the fluid path in relation to that. It is not real clear from my sketch but the fluid path would curve around the cone with it ending so the fluid was being ejected from the edge of the cone and parallel to the edge of the cone and perpendicular to the support shaft. I hope that makes sense. Please feel free to ask for more info or to ignore me completely. Only trying to help. Respectfully, Carroll PS: I really like you lathe too. If I had one like that to go with mine I could really get something done. ------------------------ Richard Clem motor. Clem Motor fluid path 001.jpg (46.24 kB, 1528x760 - viewed 1497 times.) --------------------------- Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.

Grumage	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #3 on: 2015-11-22, 14:51:34 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2765	Dear both. Thanks for your replies, actually that's not my lathe.... Smug mode enabled..... Mine's better!! I have the superior model with both Imperial and Metric screw cutting facility. The loosest spiral I can do is 4 TPI ( 4 turns per inch traveled ) what are thoughts? Carroll, thanks for the sketches but I would find it impossible to make a groove that changes width and depth on my machine, that's where these new fangled machining stations come into their own. Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Grumage	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #4 on: 2015-11-22, 15:57:06 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2765	Footnote. We've been brainstorming, how does using, say a No 5 or 6 Morse taper step up arbour as they have a parallel outside diameter? Find a No 5 or 6 drill chuck arbour for the rotor. Just a thought, comments welcome. Oh, as a reminder for some readers I have attached the patent drawing. Cheers Grum. ------------------------ Richard Clem motor. image.png (337.7 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 1817 times.) --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Mrumage	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #5 on: 2015-11-22, 18:24:56 »
Group: Guest	Grumage's lathe is covered in a load of stuff and milling machine. Fantastic workshop other wise

Grumage	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #6 on: 2015-11-22, 18:54:57 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2765	Quote from: Mrumage on 2015-11-22, 18:24:56 Grumage's lathe is covered in a load of stuff and milling machine. Fantastic workshop other wise --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Grumage	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #7 on: 2015-11-22, 20:17:03 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2765	Another engineering nightmare........ Quote. The conical rotor has two helical channels (criteria 3), in the form of square threads, spaced 180° apart for balance. The channel depth decreases as the rotor diameter increases. Fluid enters the channels at the small end of the rotor. The fluid is induced to rotate with the channel by boundary layer drag. The boundary layer is the thin layer of fluid adhering to the channel surface. Molecular cohesion tends to drag the adjacent fluid with the boundary layer. The fluid is also in contact with the housing wall. The boundary layer drag against this stationary wall slows the rotation of the fluid in the channels. Because the fluid rotates slower than the rotor, it is forced through the channels towards the large end of the rotor. In addition the fluid is forced towards the large end by centrifugal force. Unquote. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

CITFTA	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #8 on: 2015-11-22, 20:49:02 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 782 Believing in something false doesn't make it true.	Hi Grum, I realize machining the fluid channel like I drew would be a nightmare and would really require a 5 axis CNC mill rather than a lathe. My thoughts are that you could machine the cone shape and then braze some tubing to the outside of the cone to make the fluid channel. I am convinced you would need to reduce the size of the tubing as it moves toward the outside of the cone. It may be possible to start with something like 3/4 inch copper tubing and then at regular intervals reduce it in size until near the very end at which point you would probably want to reduce it the final time to maybe 1/8 inch for a nozzle effect. My reasoning for this is because as the fluid moves from the inlet to the outlet we want the fluid to keep increasing in velocity. By reducing the size of the pipe we allow the fluid velocity to increase while maintaining the volume of fluid needed to do that. I hope this makes sense. I also believe the tubing should make several wraps around the cone with the wraps getting closer together as you get to the edge of the cone. This should increase the pressure on the fluid from the increase in centrifugal force on the fluid. I did not show the several wraps in my simple sketch. Just some added thoughts for your consideration. --------------------------- Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.

Chet K	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #9 on: 2015-11-23, 13:35:14 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Grum There is one fellow in Particular that was a member here , he was quite familiar with The Clem Motor I believe he was/is also involved at Keelynet [or similar ??] DX--- something is his handle ? Jerry D .. Can't find any DX in the member list Now ? I'll ask around . thx Chet UPDATE Found a contact , will report Back

CITFTA	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #10 on: 2015-11-23, 13:57:19 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 782 Believing in something false doesn't make it true.	Grum, Here is an interesting article describing the reason for reducing the size of the channels as they approach the edge of the cone. There is also an interesting idea for how to do that with a lathe that has a taper attachment. My only concern would be that most taper attachments don't allow as much angle as might be needed. I suppose a good machinist could modify a taper attachment to accomplish the correct angles. I am not meaning to be a pest, just trying to share some ideas. Here is the link: http://www.keelynet.com/energy/clemcone.htm Carroll PS: I have seen some tapers cut by sliding the tailstock off to one side. Maybe a combination of that with the taper attachment might get you enough angle. --------------------------- Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.

Grumage	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #11 on: 2015-11-23, 14:09:35 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2765	Quote from: CITFTA on 2015-11-22, 20:49:02 Hi Grum, I realize machining the fluid channel like I drew would be a nightmare and would really require a 5 axis CNC mill rather than a lathe. My thoughts are that you could machine the cone shape and then braze some tubing to the outside of the cone to make the fluid channel. I am convinced you would need to reduce the size of the tubing as it moves toward the outside of the cone. It may be possible to start with something like 3/4 inch copper tubing and then at regular intervals reduce it in size until near the very end at which point you would probably want to reduce it the final time to maybe 1/8 inch for a nozzle effect. My reasoning for this is because as the fluid moves from the inlet to the outlet we want the fluid to keep increasing in velocity. By reducing the size of the pipe we allow the fluid velocity to increase while maintaining the volume of fluid needed to do that. I hope this makes sense. I also believe the tubing should make several wraps around the cone with the wraps getting closer together as you get to the edge of the cone. This should increase the pressure on the fluid from the increase in centrifugal force on the fluid. I did not show the several wraps in my simple sketch. Just some added thoughts for your consideration. Dear Carroll. Thanks for your thoughts but I wonder if part of this relies upon the fluid interaction between the two parts? Having slept on it my nightmare is simply solved..... Just set the cutting angle to a degree or so less than that of the cone....... I should be able to machine a groove that gets shallower towards the larger end. Dear Chet. Looking forward to hearing from you. Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Chet K	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #12 on: 2015-11-23, 14:21:05 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Grum It would be good to get Jerry Decker involved here ,I have started searching for the Old asphalt pump in your drawing [from Keelynet patent which Carroll also linked to. Thx Chet

Grumage	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #13 on: 2015-11-23, 17:54:59 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2765	Quote from: Chet K on 2015-11-23, 14:21:05 Grum It would be good to get Jerry Decker involved here ,I have started searching for the Old asphalt pump in your drawing [from Keelynet patent which Carroll also linked to. Thx Chet Hi Chet. Here's the link but I think you have already seen this? http://rexresearch.com/clemengn/clemeng.htm I wonder if any members, or guests for that matter have come across the Asphalt pump in question? Scrapyard ?? Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Peterae	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #14 on: 2015-11-23, 18:25:14 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Jerry was a member here, but i just looked and it looks like his account lapsed and got deleted.

Chet K	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #15 on: 2015-11-24, 13:46:13 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Well I did hear back from Jerry A short reply stating " long time, no clem news and no results...sorry." Good luck !

Grumage	Re: Richard Clem motor. « Reply #16 on: 2015-11-24, 19:03:42 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2765	Quote from: Chet K on 2015-11-24, 13:46:13 Well I did hear back from Jerry A short reply stating " long time, no clem news and no results...sorry." Good luck ! Hi Chet. Short and sweet !! I've been doing some more reading today from the link that Carroll provided, it would seem that the cone pump never got into production according to the Son of the patentee. It would, however, be natural to assume that a prototype had been built to prove the concept? Did it get put into the machine that Richard Clem used? I've been in contact with my friend Geoff at the Anson Engine museum who has recently been donated a " Ton " of engineering equipment from the now defunct Mirrlees Diesel factory near Manchester. He thinks there might be some large Morse taper stuff we can play with. After all has anyone got a machine that can accept MT 6 ?? It's B****Y huge !! Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

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