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OverUnity Research > Motors > Permanent Magnet Motors > TinMan's magnets doing useful work
2024-11-27, 04:41:50
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Author Topic: TinMan's magnets doing useful work  (Read 9702 times)
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img  Chet K
TinMan's magnets doing useful work « on: 2015-10-11, 14:13:56 »
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img  TinselKoala
Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #1 on: 2015-10-11, 21:32:42 »
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Next, we'll learn how _springs_ can "do useful work".
   
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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #2 on: 2015-10-12, 07:16:50 »
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That would be useful test http://pasteboard.co/1jwo5G82.png

If the same mass of neutral body and magnet cause the same effect on mass on opposite lever end then it's ok with current laws. But on the first end of lever there is magnet attached to the bottom side and in the same polarity (in repulsion mode) as the magnet falling into it inside the tube
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #3 on: 2015-10-12, 15:42:02 »
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@TK

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhLlI8gclZQ----Next, we'll learn how _springs_ can "do useful work".

I would be interested to hear your theory as to why the input current dropped with the magnet in place?.

Tinman established a baseline input current by measuring 520mv across the CSR then installed a magnet and measured a lower input current of 361mv across the CSR. If the voltage is constant then we know the input power has decreased.

Now if your using the old same-same argument then we can treat the flywheel and all it's components as a black box. That is, there is literally nothing which can occur in the black box to decrease the input because nothing has the capacity to do so... but it did?. So No TK, it cannot be just like a spring, same-same, because we know a spring cannot decrease the input... it must be something else, so what do you think it is?.

AC


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img  TinselKoala
Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #4 on: 2015-10-12, 17:12:03 »
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Did the RPM change? Did the duty cycle change? Did the motor torque change? Since I don't have the device in front of me I can't track down the effect myself, but I have to go with the standard physical interpretation until all possible other effects are ruled out. I myself have demonstrated fully electronic circuits that draw less power with load connected, than they do with no load connected. Does this mean that connecting a load adds energy? Or does it mean that the presence of a load simply _wastes less_ of the energy that is being sent to the system in the first place? There are all kinds of possible explanations that don't require re-writing the physics books or booking a trip to Sweden. All of those explanations need to be _ruled out_ by experiment and analysis before extraordinary claims can be considered.

Take the magnets out of a standard DC commutated "can" motor. Connect the motor to a power supply and watch the current. Now replace the magnets, and do the same. Chances are that the current will be much higher in the first case (since the armature isn't turning) and lower in the second case, with the armature turning. Are the magnets therefore "doing useful work"?
   
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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #5 on: 2015-10-13, 00:33:52 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2015-10-12, 17:12:03
  Did the motor torque change? Since I don't have the device in front of me I can't track down the effect myself, but I have to go with the standard physical interpretation until all possible other effects are ruled out. , Or does it mean that the presence of a load simply _wastes less_ of the energy that is being sent to the system in the first place? There are all kinds of possible explanations that don't require re-writing the physics books or booking a trip to Sweden. All of those explanations need to be _ruled out_ by experiment and analysis before extraordinary claims can be considered.

 

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Did the RPM change?

Well i thought that would have been obvious,unless you know a way of decreasing the power requirement of a brushed DC motor without allowing the RPM to increase while maintaining the same voltage supplied to that motor.

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Did the duty cycle change?

Duty cycle ???

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I myself have demonstrated fully electronic circuits that draw less power with load connected than they do with no load connected.

Please show a DC brushed motor being supplies with a fixed voltage decreasing in P/in requirement when a load is added to it.

 
Quote
Does this mean that connecting a load adds energy?

What load?

Quote
Take the magnets out of a standard DC commutated "can" motor. Connect the motor to a power supply and watch the current. Now replace the magnets, and do the same. Chances are that the current will be much higher in the first case (since the armature isn't turning) and lower in the second case, with the armature turning. Are the magnets therefore "doing useful work"?

Feel free to take the magnets out and replace them with what ever you like,but only the magnets will give you the best performing motor-that is P/in for P/out ratio.


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img  Chet K
Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #6 on: 2015-10-13, 01:18:14 »
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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #7 on: 2015-10-13, 11:07:13 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2015-10-12, 17:12:03
I myself have demonstrated fully electronic circuits that draw less power with load connected, than they do with no load connected. Does this mean that connecting a load adds energy?
No

Also, many common power supply circuits, such as the one below, draw the same input power with and without a load connected to the output.
   
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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #8 on: 2015-10-13, 11:58:43 »

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I think we should all be aware that the presence of magnets in Brad's device will create both a cyclic torque waveform and cyclic force waveforms (sideways and endways) on the axle.  And with Brad admitting that his mechanical system is not perfect it is quite possible that those force waveforms change the loading on the bearings such that, with the right adjustments, the magnetic forces reduce the overall friction loading.  I.e. the magnetic forces could tend to cancel out the friction coming from a bent shaft.

Having said that, and having created a FEMM simulation that shows there to be no anomalous energy gain, I would offer the following explanation for why there could really be a gain.  Brad is using conductive ferrous sheet for his screen, and is using conductive magnets.  And it is well known that conduction electrons have spin that can contribute to induced or permanent magnetization.   This is something that is never taken into account when dealing with magnets attracting or repelling each other or attracting ferrous material.  The electrons can move under the influence of (a) magnetic gradients and (b) motional E=vXB induction so that the magnet and/or the ferrous screen will have a magnetization distribution that is not covered by classical theory.  Brad's thingy could be using this effect to good use, as could all the other self-running PM motors that current science will not recognize as being possible.

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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #9 on: 2015-10-13, 12:12:59 »

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Here is a small paper suggesting why it might work.

Smudge
   
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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #10 on: 2015-10-13, 15:21:39 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2015-10-13, 11:07:13
No

Also, many common power supply circuits, such as the one below, draw the same input power with and without a load connected to the output.


And this has what to do with my setup?.
Of course,i give you the same opportunity as i did TK, to show a DC brushed motor that is being supplied with a steady DC current, reduce it's current draw while maintaining a set voltage input to that motor without reducing the load on that motor.


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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #11 on: 2015-10-13, 15:35:31 »

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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #12 on: 2015-10-13, 18:40:49 »

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Quote from: TinMan on 2015-10-13, 15:21:39
And this has what to do with my setup?.
Your motor is not this circuit.

It only demonstrates that ( POUT_2 -  POUT_1 ) / ( PIN_2 -  PIN_1 ) <> POUT_2 /  PIN_2
   
img  Chet K
Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #13 on: 2015-10-14, 13:32:47 »
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Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #14 on: 2015-10-14, 15:18:37 »
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I just seen Gum vids yesterday and left a comment in one of them:

"Here is some idea for playground and the mechanical feat to be realized ;)
Remember 90 degree arrangement of magnets in other setup? You could try arrange moving magnetic forces to 90 degrees between rotating disk and magnet on the leg here as well then see what happens. Say, on push mode, detach leg while magnet on disk is approaching and fire leg when magnet is in line. So the magnetic forces would push away magnet on disk from leg when it is in correct position and timing without resistance when coming to the line.
The leg has to be moving in parabolic way. In circle it won't do any good.
"

When there is physical movement plus magnetic forces the magnets should kick in only on specific point of time to create disk rotation and without counter-action. Like capacitor suddenly discharging over coil provided the capacitor was charged without consuming energy from primary source.
I brought my comment here for wider discussion... ;)

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img  wattsup
Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #15 on: 2015-10-16, 04:55:42 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-10-13, 12:12:59
Here is a small paper suggesting why it might work.

Smudge

Hope you don't mind but I modded your drawing with an alternative. hehehe

Just a different way to play.

wattsup


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img  wattsup
Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #16 on: 2015-10-26, 02:41:03 »
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Huh, check this out. Double duty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfs6fwNA9r0

wattsup


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img  ion
Re: TinMan's magnets doing useful work « Reply #17 on: 2015-10-26, 10:27:49 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: wattsup on 2015-10-26, 02:41:03
Huh, check this out. Double duty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfs6fwNA9r0

wattsup


Very clever design, well executed. Uploaded Dec 2010, this seems to predate Tinmans device, so we must ask did he get his idea here, or like most ideas, they seem to spring up simultaneously on the planet. At some level unknown to us, our minds are all connected.

Are there even earlier versions of this? I once pointed out that magnetic shielding in attempts to build a self running magnet motor go way back, but require exhaustive patent searches.

A good reason why trying to hold back information doesn't work, once we think of it, it is "out there".

"There is nothing hidden anywhere, its all there to be sought" Procol Harum, from the album "Shine On Brightly" the song "In Held Twas In I", @10:50, Brooker, Fisher, Reid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmGaDL-mcs4
« Last Edit: 2015-10-26, 19:33:14 by ION »


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