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OverUnity Research > Measurement Techniques and Equipment > Oscilloscopes > Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !!
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Author Topic: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !!  (Read 77239 times)
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img  TinselKoala
Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « on: 2015-06-03, 03:18:04 »
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I'd like to have a place to discuss the Rigol DS1054 scope and its cousins since a few of us have them or other Rigol scopes. So here we go. Questions, answers, features, measurements, help... and BUGS.


First thing.... I really like the scope and use it many hours each day but I just discovered something while testing a portion of the "nanosecond pulser" circuit.

I'm getting a reproducible bug that's pretty darn severe.

The scope freezes up, becomes totally non-responsive (but still displays live waveform) when the Horizontal Zoom mode is engaged, and a Persistence Time other than "min" is selected.

Cycling power restores functionality --- usually.

I discovered this on Firmware 04.02 and now have upgraded to Firmware 04.03 and it still does the same thing.  One channel active, showing a waveform, select the Horiz. zoom mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob, select the Display menu and then any Persistence Time other than Min ... and scope freezes.

If I select a persistence time _before_ selecting the Horiz. zoom mode... the scope freezes, and since I have "Last" set as power-on option, the scope comes up frozen after restarting !! So I have to do the "press repeatedly the 5th left menu button during startup" to get the scope back to responding again (reset to defaults, chinese language).

I don't think other settings matter, I've tried it in Normal and Average acquisition modes, with various timebase and V/div settings, etc. It seems to be some interaction between persistence time selection and the horizontal zoom feature.

Slider, does yours do this too?   Don't worry, you can get it back even if it comes up frozen on startup, by repeatedly pressing the 5th dark grey button on the left side while the scope is starting up. It will come up in factory defaults, with chinese language, but you can change back to English right there.
   
img  Chet K
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #1 on: 2015-06-03, 14:38:08 »
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can I reach out for a Tech [Rigol] to join this discussion ?
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #2 on: 2015-06-03, 16:06:56 »
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Quote from: Chet K on 2015-06-03, 14:38:08
can I reach out for a Tech [Rigol] to join this discussion ?



Certainly, please do. I've reported it on EEVBlog forum here:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/

As you can see in that thread, at least one other person has confirmed it. I've been testing to find the exact conditions and it doesn't seem to happen if the horizontal timebase is set to slow values (like slower than 200 microseconds per division.) But it happens quite reliably when the timebase is at 10 microseconds/div or faster.

Here's my video showing the bug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7gziboPoHI
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #3 on: 2015-06-03, 23:33:25 »
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Another video of the problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSTYrMzNzZw

The people on the EEVBlog forum are not having much luck reproducing this bug, except for one person so far.

But now that I've discovered that it mostly happens when the Memory Depth is set to Auto, and I can avoid it by using full memory depth, it's not so bad, I can deal with it by simply not using Auto depth when I need persistence and zooming at the same time.

Still, it would be nice to track down the reason for this and to find out if it affects other scopes, if it's a production run problem, corrupted software, or just what.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #4 on: 2015-06-05, 00:45:47 »
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So far I've heard from around 7 or 8 people who can reproduce the bug, and about the same number who can't seem to do it. Oh well.... hopefully Rigol is watching somewhere. They really need to do something about this problem, even if it only affects a certain percentage of the units rather than all of them. I still kind of think that the ones who "can't" do it aren't trying hard enough or something. Because I can't really think of a reason why only _some_ scopes would have a problem like this. But at least I know that it isn't just me, so I won't be sending mine back (unless RIgol does a recall or something like that).


Meanwhile, it's still a great scope. You sure can get a lot of information on that little screen!

   
img  Slider2732
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #5 on: 2015-06-05, 21:01:54 »
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
I would expect them to release a Patch. Or simply include it in the next firmware release.
A 4 letter word should be heard in the Rigol office when they become aware of it.

As mentioned on your second vid, mine has the bug. It's completely stock, no changes and if the way you showed in that video is followed exactly, the screen freezes.
Indeed, it does it on Auto, but doesn't at other depths. If that range is needed then at least we now have your videos to clearly remember what to do before measuring.


---------------------------
ʎɐqǝ from pɹɐoqʎǝʞ a ʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #6 on: 2015-06-05, 23:33:39 »
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Feeling better all the time about the purchase of my new Siglent scope.  Everything seems to work as specified.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #7 on: 2015-06-06, 00:51:32 »
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Yes, the Siglent looks nice. It looks like it has fully functional remote control software too. The Rigol remote software "UltraScope" basically sux.
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #8 on: 2015-06-06, 02:55:35 »
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Getting EasyScopeX working is a bit of pain because you have to jump through some hoops to get the National Instruments VISA drivers loaded.  But once that is done, taking screen shots without using a USB stick is really nice.  It does do remote control and data capture too.  But all of this assumes you have a Windows OS.  The USBTMC spec is probably supported in Linux, but I haven't poked around enough to learn the details.

It's only two channel and the sampling rate is half of yours.  Screen is the same size but the resolution is less.

The good thing is I can take measurements now, something that was extremely difficult to do with my analog scope.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #9 on: 2015-06-06, 19:56:44 »
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Quote from: Slider2732 on 2015-06-05, 21:01:54
I would expect them to release a Patch. Or simply include it in the next firmware release.
A 4 letter word should be heard in the Rigol office when they become aware of it.

As mentioned on your second vid, mine has the bug. It's completely stock, no changes and if the way you showed in that video is followed exactly, the screen freezes.
Indeed, it does it on Auto, but doesn't at other depths. If that range is needed then at least we now have your videos to clearly remember what to do before measuring.


Heh... wait till you see the next video. The "Bug" has an interesting interaction with another "bug". This second bug is this: The scope is supposed to remember its last setup (when this is set in Utility>System>Power Set = Last) when it is shut down. But if you have 4 channels active, and "6M" set in Mem Depth, and you turn the scope off, then back on again... the Mem Depth sets itself to "Auto". It doesn't seem to do this if only one channel is active and Mem Depth is 24M--- in that case it boots up with the same setting like it should. Not so with 4 channels active.

So, let's say you are buzzing along with 4 channels going, you have some persistence set, and you think you are safe because you have 6M set in Mem Depth. You enter the Horizontal Zoom mode and all is peachy, it all works fine. Then you shut down to go to lunch or something, and when you come back you turn the scope back on. Clickety clack, flashy lites all normal ... but Bam! The scope boots up and is already FROZEN!! And there is now nothing you can do about it but use the "5th Left Menu Button" reset back to factory defaults..... losing your entire setup if you haven't got it saved.

It does this because with 4 channels active, the scope doesn't remember you had Mem Depth set to 6M points, and automagically resets Mem Depth to Auto.... so now all the conditions for the FreezeBug are in place and the scope boots up frozen. But it shows a live waveform... you just can't do anything about it.

Imagine how you'd feel at that point, if you didn't understand how to use the "5th Left Menu Button" reset, since it's not officially documented.  You'd think you had a totally bricked scope.  This "feature" elevates the severity and importance of the Freeze Bug. I've sent a note to Rigol Tech Support and I'm raising hell about it on the EEVblog forum, as more and more users report being able to reproduce the bug.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #10 on: 2015-06-06, 22:00:41 »
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bTWmY37qMs


How do you like them apples? It's possible to shut the scope down while running normally, and have it _start up_ completely frozen ! By setting a perfectly reasonable combination of settings !  

Insert huge facepalm image here!


I haven't yet heard if others can reproduce this full setup but I imagine that anyone who has "the bug" in the first place can wind up doing this one too.
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #11 on: 2015-06-06, 22:20:25 »
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My lord that thing is slow to boot and load setup files.   :o
   
img  Slider2732
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #12 on: 2015-06-07, 03:15:43 »
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
Clickety clack  ;D
That is indeed exactly the sound of the scope at boot up  O0

Just a wondering, are such relays good for a million clickety clacks and likely to last for a decade of daily use ?
It seems somewhat intensive while using various features.  
Otherwise, i'm delighted with it, being unlikely to use 4 channels often. But bugs are bugs and this sort of thing is free R+D to the manufacturer.

2 bugs.
A double facepalm


---------------------------
ʎɐqǝ from pɹɐoqʎǝʞ a ʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #13 on: 2015-06-09, 14:09:21 »
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Just in the last few hours, somebody has been trolling my videos and leaving anonymous cowardly thumbs-downs on them. The Rigol bug videos and demonstrations had no thumbs-downs last night, and by this morning, the latest demonstration of the bug, which I uploaded less than 24 hours ago and have only linked on the EEVblog forum, has been hit with _5_ thumbs down votes. My PLL demo video has gotten _11_ such votes, again many of them since yesterday. Never do these negative voters have the courage to leave a comment stating what they find so objectionable about my demonstrations.

I find this hilarious. I have my own personal trolls, who actually _subscribe_ to my channel so that they can be informed whenever I upload a video, so that they can leave their cowardly chicken-droppings on them. How incredibly impotent they are! And how afraid and inarticulate. Instead of offering constructive criticism in comments, which I welcome, they can only deface. 

This last set is rather telling, though. Less than 24 hours up, only linked from one forum, a clear demonstration of a fatal flaw in the "world's best selling oscilloscope"... and 5 thumbs downs.
Here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3qLx1PYXyw

Bring it on, cowardly trolls!
   
img  Chet K
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #14 on: 2015-06-09, 15:33:52 »
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Hmm
Still going full tilt here ...finally got back home [almost two weeks]  I will MAKE the time to Call Rigol today.





Chet K

« Last Edit: 2015-06-09, 16:02:48 by Chet K »
   
img  Chet K
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #15 on: 2015-06-09, 16:07:59 »
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OK
called and Emailed Our friend Jason C at Rigol  [has helped us before]

waiting to hear back.

Chet K
   
img  Smudge
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #16 on: 2015-06-09, 16:32:55 »

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@TK,

Perhaps the thumbs down are meant for Rigol and not against you? 

Smudge
   
img  Chet K
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #17 on: 2015-06-09, 16:35:32 »
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here is a quick response from Jason C

Quote



There is a known issue with activating the Sweep Delay function. We are working on it at this time.




Have you been able to reset the scope?




What is the serial number and firmware revision?




J
end quote

I sent him the info on Marks STOCK unaltered scope.
will be forwarding Tinsels Vids Now.

More Later
Chet K

MORE from Jason
Hi Chet,



Here is the alternate factory reset instructions. They should be able to get you up-and-running again.




http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf

...............................
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #18 on: 2015-06-09, 17:04:09 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-06-09, 16:32:55
@TK,

Perhaps the thumbs down are meant for Rigol and not against you? 

Smudge
Perhaps, but that doesn't account for the systematic TDs appearing suddenly on _all_ my recent videos, some having nothing to do with Rigol at all, and even on the Rigol demos where I am demonstrating useful features of the scope with no reference to bugs at all.
I have a few dedicated trolls. I even know who some of them are, but since I don't know the YT accounts they use to leave the TDs I can't block them from my channel.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #19 on: 2015-06-09, 17:23:47 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Chet K on 2015-06-09, 16:35:32
here is a quick response from Jason C

Quote
There is a known issue with activating the Sweep Delay function. We are working on it at this time.
Have you been able to reset the scope?
What is the serial number and firmware revision?
J
end quote

I sent him the info on Marks STOCK unaltered scope.
will be forwarding Tinsels Vids Now.

More Later
Chet K

MORE from Jason
Hi Chet,
Here is the alternate factory reset instructions. They should be able to get you up-and-running again.
http://beyondmeasure.rigoltech.com/acton/attachment/1579/f-02f4/1/-/-/-/-/file.pdf
...............................


I sent a notice to Rigol Tech Support several days ago with links to the first group of videos. And included in those videos is the demonstration of the "alternate factory reset" method. I did get a response from Jason.

Here's what I sent to Rigol Tech Support on Saturday morning:

Quote
Are you aware of this problem? It seems to affect about half of the DS1054Z scopes that have tested for it (over 25 as I write this, with at least 13 affected). The problem occurs in scopes running firmware versions 04.03, as well as those using 04.02.
The scope "locks up" and does not respond to any user input (buttons, knobs, SCPI commands over LAN) and requires a power-cycle reboot. To reproduce the condition reliably, start with CH1 probe connected to Calibrator for a signal (although any signal or even no signal will also work). Set Horizontal timebase to 1 us/div or faster. Set Memory Depth to AUTO. Set Display Persistence Time to 100 ms, or any value other than "min". Enter Horizontal Zoom (Delayed) mode by pressing the Horizontal Scale knob or by using the menu item button. Scope locks up at this point. Or do the steps in different sequence, like have Mem Depth set at some value other than Auto, enter Horizontal Zoom then select "Auto" Mem Depth... scope locks up. The scope continues to show a live waveform but is completely unresponsive to any knobs or button presses. In this state, it also does not recognize attempts to connect over the LAN using Telnet. If the LAN connection is already established before the scope freezes, it stops responding to SCPI commands (connection is dropped).
The only way to restore function is to power-cycle the scope. Sometimes even power-cycling results in continued lockup and then the scope needs to be reset using the "5th Left Menu Button" reset technique which results in the scope coming up in Chinese (but operational.)
Please check the EEVBlog thread here:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/
And my videos demonstrating the bug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7gziboPoHI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSTYrMzNzZw
Thank you for your attention to this matter. A perfectly legitimate combination of user settings should never cause an instrument to lock up completely requiring a hard reboot, and the fact that the "bug" appears in approximately half the units tested, using 04.02 and 04.03 firmwares equally, is very strange.

And here's the response I got:
Quote
Hello (TK)
My name is Jason Chonko and I am an Applications Engineer at Rigol Technologies USA. Thank you for writing in.

We are aware of the problems with the MSO and are investigating the issue further.

Can I get the following information from your instrument?

- Serial number?
- Purchase date and vendor?
- Shipping address and phone number?

I am going to write up a bug for your account. When it is fixed, you will be emailed the solution.

Sincerely,
Jason

And then I sent the following:

Quote
Hello Jason, thanks for your email.

The problem is happening on DS1054Z scopes. I haven't heard any reports of the full problem happening on MSO models.

By now, as you can see on the EEVblog forum, we have identified at least 17 units, out of 35 tested, that show the bug.
(There is a "poll" at the top of the EEVBlog thread that is keeping track of the reports. I have also had comments from several
others, not EEVblog members, who have the bug, so really it affects more than half the units tested.)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/msg689219/#new

Since my original report I have found that it is possible to have the scope start up _already frozen_ after being shut
down in fully functional state, due to a second bug: the scope does not remember the Mem Depth setting and starts up
with Mem Depth set to AUTO, no matter how it was set when shut down. So one of the four conditions for freeze-up is set
for you automatically. This has also been confirmed in other people's scopes. Also, when loading a Setup file, the scope
usually resets Mem Depth to Auto, no matter what setting it had when the file was saved.

This second bug (start up with Mem Depth AUTO) _does_  occur with at least one MSO model that
has been tested, although that particular scope did not freeze up when the owner tested for it.

Here is a video demonstration of the "Start-up in Locked State" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bTWmY37qMs
 
As to purchase date... you may recall that my first scope had a bad glitch on CH4 and so it was returned to TEquipment for
replacement. That scope was originally ordered on February 9, 2015, IIRC,  and was finally delivered to me on April 9. It was returned
to TEquipment and they sent me a replacement which arrived here on April 19. Oddly, the "new" scope had a much earlier
serial number than the first one.

The serial number of the scope I have now is
DS1ZA170300673
It was purchased from TEquipment.net
The shipping address is

(my name and address here)

I can't be contacted here by phone, please use email.

Thanks for your attention to this matter. There must be many many units out there that have this bug, as the sample
of 35 units tested shows 17 of them (at least) that have it.  It might be nice if someone from Rigol actually posted something
on the EEVBlog forum thread to notify the affected owners that the problem is being investigated.

Sincerely--
(TK)

So  maybe Jason hasn't watched the videos, or perhaps he's not connecting Chet's message with mine. Since it is pretty clear that we know all about the "alternate factory reset" procedure already.

There are now 37 reports of testing on the EEVblog forum, with 18 owners reporting that they CAN reproduce the freezing and 19 saying that they CAN'T. This count does not include several "CANs" that I  know about from non-EEV forum members, and has at least one "CAN'T" from someone with a MSO1074Z-S scope... a different model than is actually being discussed. So really, more than half the scopes tested DO suffer from the bug.

And there still hasn't been any posting from a Rigol representative on the EEVblog forum thread talking about this widespread issue.

AND.... the issue has more to do with the Persistence setting, I think, than the Horizontal Delayed timebase setting as such. For example setting any Persistence time other than "min" also brings the Math FFT display to a dead halt. And the second "bug" where the Mem Depth resets to "Auto" when power cycling or loading a stored setup, is also a big factor in allowing the scope to start up already frozen.



   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #20 on: 2015-06-09, 17:34:39 »
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Also, there are other problems. For example the FFT has errors that seem to depend on the Acquisition Mode and the Memory Depth, with only the "High Precision" and "120K" settings seeming to return an accurate result. Other settings result in aliasing, and the "anti-aliasing" function has no effect on this particular type of aliasing. So far, everyone who has tested their scopes for this flaw has been able to reproduce it.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #21 on: 2015-06-09, 17:45:43 »
Group: Guest
It's also interesting to note that the "Alternate Reset" instructions in the link are for the DS2000 and higher models. They have seven dark grey buttons, rather than six like the DS1054Z. So if you are counting from the top, you'll be using the wrong button if you follow those instructions. Regardless, it's the second dark grey button from the _bottom_  that does the trick for all the scopes.

   
img  Chet K
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #22 on: 2015-06-10, 15:46:30 »
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Tinsel
I have been asked a question by Jason C
"is the problem interfering with your research at this time ?"
or once you reset it can you go about your business ...

I am certain this will be remedied ,I don't really think they are sure about how prevalent this problem is
Nor its extent.



« Last Edit: 2015-06-10, 16:37:52 by Chet K »
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #23 on: 2015-06-10, 16:40:52 »
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Hmm... I wonder why he didn't ask me, directly. It sounds like Rigol are getting a little snippy there. 

The answer is No, not exactly, since I've discovered the conditions for the main freeze-up problem and the way to get around it, _all on my own_.  (See, I can be snippy too.)

But the more I use the scope the more bugs I find and document.  If their answer to the problem is "Well, just don't use those settings then..." that's a problem in itself. And the clear fact that it occurs on a bit more than half the scopes tested would appear to indicate some systemic problem at Rigol itself that needs to be fixed.

Some people apparently have DS1054Z scopes that do not lock up, so their owners don't have to be extra careful not to create the conditions for lockup. Other owners, like me, have to put up with slowdowns and lockups if we inadvertently try to use the perfectly ordinary and legitimate settings that produce the Bug. So we need to understand it in order to avoid it. The first time my scope locked up on me I was frantic, I thought I had bricked the scope somehow and spent several hours in a panic state, pressing buttons and cycling power until I finally accidentally hit upon the "alternate factory reset" thing myself. The reset procedure isn't even mentioned in the user manual anywhere that I can find!

Overall my experience with this scope has been positive, and I still defend it in forum posts and in my YT video comments. But the facts that we know the problem exists, we know its conditions for happening and we know the ways to avoid it are all due to my work and forum conversations on EEVblog. Maybe the direction of my "research" has shifted somewhat, from looking at the behaviour of circuits on my bench, into looking at and documenting the unfortunate BUGS in this nice scope, in the hope that Rigol will be able to fix their product and their systemic problems, and make it even better -- that is, make it actually work as it was designed and intended to do.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Rigol DS1054Z -- Features, Usage, and... BUGS !! « Reply #24 on: 2015-06-10, 16:47:56 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Chet K on 2015-06-10, 15:46:30
Tinsel
I have been asked a question by Jason C
"is the problem interfering with your research at this time ?"
or once you reset it can you go about your business ...

I am certain this will be remedied ,I don't really think they are sure about how prevalent this problem is
Nor its extent.




At the top of the thread at EEVBlog there is a "poll" that is keeping track of the reports from people who are testing their scopes to see if they can reproduce the "Bug". Right now, that poll shows that 40 scopes have been tested by EEVblog forum members, with 21 reporting that they CAN reproduce it and 19 reporting that they can't. In addition I have had some other reports from non-members, on my YT videos, from people who have reproduced the freezing, and the "start-up locked" condition as well. So they at Rigol may not be sure how prevalent the problem is, but if a random sample of 40 units has half of them or more, showing the problem, then any statistician or even any reasonable person would say that it is indeed prevalent, and in fact common, among the scopes that are out there "in the wild".
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1054z-freeze-up-bug/
   
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