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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Steven Mark's TPU > Some "New" Observations
2024-11-24, 15:57:43
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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations  (Read 303982 times)
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img  partzman
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #450 on: 2017-04-29, 23:13:04 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-29, 21:57:01
Right, lowering the sweep time from 10s all the way to 1ms does not show anything special (well, there are lots of noisy signals)
I used the copper tube and a fluorescent lamp both with sine wave and square wave signals.

I will do some further testing with faster sweep times and different settings tomorrow.


Itsu

A suggestion that has been mentioned by ION and I would agree is to terminate the line with a load equal to it's characteristic impedance rather than an open connection.  This way no reflections will impede the forward wave movement which then may create a certain amount of DC to be seen in the collector.  IIRC, Thoneman stated that when the energy conversion is taking place, it doesn't really matter what the termination is as nearly all the energy in the line is transferred to the collector however, he does state that the line should be properly terminated.

Regards,
Pm 
   
img  Vasik041
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #451 on: 2017-04-30, 07:12:40 »
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Some considerations which could help (or may be not  :))

Speed of sound in copper is 4600m/sec. Somewhere it was mentioned that TPU operates near 5KHz frequency.
5khz equal to 0.2ms period and so length of collector should be 4600 * 0.2ms = 0.92 m (or multiple of that)
If one use different length frequency can be calculated like 4600/length of collector

If we trying create acoustic shock wave we need sweep starting from some frequency (speed) below 5khz and ending with some higher
e.g. starting 4.5khz and ending with 5.5khz
Sweep should not be too slow and not too fast. I think 50-500hz  is reasonable (corresponds to 100 - 10 field revolutions)

If we assume that "kick" is mechanical effect caused by strong magnetic field in windings interacting with Earth magnetic field may be step down transformers can be used on the amplifiers outputs. E.g. if amplifier provides 10a peak current with 10:1 transformer we can get 100a in windings
and that might be that two transformers seen in the middle of large TPU (pure speculation)

 :)
« Last Edit: 2017-04-30, 08:25:42 by Vasik041 »
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #452 on: 2017-04-30, 08:35:14 »
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Quote
Such arrangement will create a Lorentz Fan

Quote
When charges are pumped unidirectionally, their movement constitutes a direct current.

Yes, I understand that but it does not match with TPU coils arrangements... at leas at first sight :-\
   
img  verpies
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #453 on: 2017-04-30, 09:54:57 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2017-04-30, 07:12:40
Speed of sound in copper is 4600m/sec.
...but in a thin copper rod (or pipe) the extensional speed of sound is around 3800m/sec.

Quote from: Vasik041 on 2017-04-30, 08:35:14
... at least at first sight :-\
At first sight - no.
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #454 on: 2017-04-30, 20:53:50 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2017-04-29, 23:13:04
A suggestion that has been mentioned by ION and I would agree is to terminate the line with a load equal to it's characteristic impedance rather than an open connection.  This way no reflections will impede the forward wave movement which then may create a certain amount of DC to be seen in the collector.  IIRC, Thoneman stated that when the energy conversion is taking place, it doesn't really matter what the termination is as nearly all the energy in the line is transferred to the collector however, he does state that the line should be properly terminated.

Regards,
Pm

i terminated the TL coil with a 77 Ohm (potmeter) resistor which was measured to be the char. impedance and redid the sweepings with a copper tube inside.

A led as load on this copper tube only lights up when there is a scope probe hooked up to the led as well, pointing to some kind of (ground)loop.
Strongest led signal is when sweeping between 21 and 23MHz (with a scope probe across it).

I think i need a stronger signal to input into the TL coil.


Itsu
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #455 on: 2017-04-30, 22:18:15 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-30, 20:53:50
i terminated the TL coil with a 77 Ohm (potmeter) resistor which was measured to be the char. impedance and redid the sweepings with a copper tube inside.

A led as load on this copper tube only lights up when there is a scope probe hooked up to the led as well, pointing to some kind of (ground)loop.
Strongest led signal is when sweeping between 21 and 23MHz (with a scope probe across it).

I think i need a stronger signal to input into the TL coil.


Itsu

Itsu,

When I ran my tests with my Tline several weeks ago, for the collector I used a length of litz cable made out of 1200 34AWG wires with tabs soldered to the ends.  I then used a length of 12 ga stranded wire with tabs for the outside jumper that bolts to the collector.  I then measured the current thru the jumper to check for any current flow and I found that the position of the collector inside the line and the jumper outside varied the results.  I also determined that the resistance of the collector and outside jumper had to be as low as possible to get the effect seen in the scope pix below.  Also you will see that my line termination is at the input.

I used an Ixys IXDD609PI driver operating at 20 vdc to generate the pulses seen on CH1.  I've also attached a schematic below which requires a little study to understand the current flows but basically, with normal induction the current flow would be the opposite than that seen in the test results IMO.  Does this mean this test shows results that Thoneman predicts?  I dunno!

I would agree that the Tline needs much higher drive levels than what we are applying.  How much higher........?

Pm
   
img  ion
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #456 on: 2017-04-30, 23:46:36 »
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I know partzman tried this with AC on the tube, and had null results.

Here is the DC version if anyone is interested or has time.

You could probably light the filament with a decent size NiCd battery of 1.2 Volts(see edit) instead of mains step down transformer.

Start with a high value current limit resistor 100k going down in value until you can get ignition in the tube to hold.

You will definitely need some type of spark igniter to strike the arc in the tube.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Checked this out this morning and the gas tube ignition works very well. I used an F20T12CW lamp with 120 Volts DC  on the Anode, current limited by a 12K resistor. I did need about 6 Volts DC  to get a visible glow in the filament, but it will work at lower filament voltage once the arc is struck in the tube.

When the arc is struck, the DC voltage across the tube drops to about 70 volts and current is about 3 to 5 mA depending on filament voltage.

When I get time I will work up a table of Anode current vs Anode voltage vs filament voltage, etc. For this particular tube.

I am told that big older flat screen TV's have some very nice long, thin fluorescent tubes.

To strike the arc in the tube, I used a higher voltage power supply 300 to 500VDC with a 0.01 uF 1kV capacitor shunted with a 1 megohm resistor touched briefly to the Anode. The momentary charging current for the capacitor is sufficient to ignite the tube. You could use one of those piezo igniters and that would probably also work.

When I get the big transmitter up and running, I will slip the tube into the TLine and see what gives.

Just be careful, the longer the tube, the higher the Anode voltage and current, the closer you are to producing XRays at the Anode end. I think this is probably only true for highly evacuated tubes,but it would not hurt to put some CRT phosphor at the anode end outside the glass and if it glows you are getting XRay production. Gas tubes will have a lot of ions that will absorb the high speed electrons, so it is questionable how fast the electrons can actually go. Thonemann did use Xenon gas in his patent / experiment.

Be Safe
Regards

An interesting video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Jg4ooFErE

and here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Bco8KRpmU



« Last Edit: 2017-05-01, 19:06:42 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #457 on: 2017-05-02, 02:08:21 »
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Attached is a simpler version of the fluorescent tube drive for use in the Thonemann patent. (see prior post for earlier version)

The good news is I found that a small inductor in the Anode circuit and a switch dispenses with the need for a filament supply. So this is the cold cathode version. Works much like those push to start lamps except requires a much briefer push, so attached is the simplified schematic.

The bad news is I spent some time trying to operate the Thonemann patent "in reverse" i.e. where a current in the tube is supposed to excite the transmission line into resonance.

I found no such happening and am beginning to doubt the patents veracity in it's present form. I ran currents from 3mA to 50mA with nothing happening (no sign of resonance) in the line.

There is one other test I will run when I fire up the RF amplifier and pump high power into the TLine.

So no  success on this project thus far.

Regards


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #458 on: 2017-05-11, 12:43:54 »

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OK did not know where to post this, but I think this is about right.

Have not had much time lately as have been very busy with one thing or the other, but have been watching the forum which has been showing some interesting things, well I think this is interesting in my pdf below.

I think this is as close as I have seen to SM's  TPU, the basic design is quite solid and works to a level which can be built on, even the possibility of not connecting L3 to  L2/C1  (PM thread!) and not tried.

Well enjoy, you will have to play with the frequency, between 3khz and 15khz should find the right spot (5-6khz was SM)

Regards

Mike 8)


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #459 on: 2017-05-11, 19:22:02 »
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Mike

Very interesting circuits, especially the second schematic. I think this is definitely worth building and I have a nice large ferrite for the job that I already put the foils on.

You've got some interesting ideas in these designs.

Thanks much for sharing this good stuff.  O0

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-05-11, 22:03:09 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #460 on: 2017-05-12, 08:47:46 »

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Quote from: ION on 2017-05-11, 19:22:02
Mike

Very interesting circuits, especially the second schematic. I think this is definitely worth building and I have a nice large ferrite for the job that I already put the foils on.

You've got some interesting ideas in these designs.

Thanks much for sharing this good stuff.  O0

Regards

Thanks ION

Not much time ATM and I have seen just lately a lot being talked about which comes into play with the STEAP way of working. Even the PM thread with a possible OU or not could come into play if one of the coils is open ended  (not tested and may not work at such low frequency).

well I leave it with you, I may get it out again if time permits

Regards

Mike 8)

Just seen the EF problem with Chet, who is Allen Burgess?? has he other handles? don't know what he posted as Chet removed it, is he on this forum under another name?


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #461 on: 2017-05-12, 09:21:56 »
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Mike
No he is not, he has been moderated at Stefan's for similar behavior
and now he makes a mess over there.

I am actually trying to understand what he is doing there?

will get it sorted soon

thanks for sharing your work.
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #462 on: 2017-05-12, 11:09:13 »
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Hi Mike

Your device deserves it's own thread possibly in the SM section or on your bench for focused discussion, either way ok lest it get buried here. This thread has gotten a bit cluttered mostly my fault by allowing the Thonemann patent intruding here. I would hate to see your good work get buried.

Regards


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #463 on: 2017-08-26, 22:06:37 »
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I decided to post this info here as it is a "new" observation to me :).

These tests were run on my previously assembled 7" TPU using a 3 turn collector L2 made with 80-15x34 litz wires for a total of 1200 34 ga copper wires in the bundle.  I was/am looking for any NMR activity with this collector and any opinions on the test results below are most certainly welcome.

The dc bias for the collector comes from the earth's magnetic field which I believe to be in a vertical orientation at my location.  A so called "control" coil L1 with 296 turns is wound completely over the collector and used for both the pulsed drive flux as well as for capturing any relaxation pulse when the spins realign.  IMO opinion, this is not the best arrangement for the relaxation recovery but it seems to work.  A zip cord winding L3 is wound over this assembly but not used.

The L1 coil is also a transmission line with a delay that is dependent on whether L2 is grounded or not.  Grounding L2 increases the effective capacitance of the L1 Tline which increases the Tdelay.

A schematic of the test is attached and shows the orientation of the bias and control coil fluxes.  A 7 Mhz single sine pulse shifted 250 degrees and offset from ground is used to provide a smooth positive only going pulse to drive the control coil.

In the scope shots, CH1(yel) is the input pulse, CH4(grn) is the input current, and CHM(red) is the FFT of the CH1 waveform.

PCC1 displays the pulsed waveforms with the FFT cursor A dipped at ~6.1Mhz.  During this test no other connections are made to L2 or L3.

PCC2 shows the time between the current peaks to be ~165ns (6.06Mhz) which is the Tline delay of L1 in this test.

PCC3 now displays the waveforms with one end of L2 grounded thus increasing the the capacitance from L1 to ground.  The FFT now shows two dips at ~3.3Mhz and ~6.1Mhz.

PCC4 shows the time interval between the 1st and 2nd current peaks to be ~165ns (6.06Mhz and PCC5 indicates the interval between the 1st and 3rd current peaks to be ~312ns (3.2Mhz). 

My interpretation of these tests is that the spin relaxation pulse occurs at ~165ns after the applied flux to L1.  In the first PCC1,2 test, the natural Tline delay of L1 with the parasitic circuit capacitance is nearly if not exactly equal to the relaxation delay.

In the second PCC3,4,5 test, the increased capacitance of Tline L1 with the grounding of L2 results in an increased delay of ~312ns but the apparent relaxation delay of ~165ns remains unaffected.

Thots?

Pm       
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #464 on: 2017-08-26, 23:04:33 »

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My voltage return pulse is at 500ns. Voltage leads the current by 90 degrees and vice versa in a capacitive circuit.
I mention this because I posted voltage response and you have a posted a capacitive response. So your voltage artifact should appear at 220ns.
This points out the variance of the build for any given configuration(stating the obvious here).
Put a low resistor to ground next time to slow things down. Just curious.

But my suspicions are that the Earth field is not sufficient to produce any controlling artifact on the L3 outer winding and that the pulsing of the inner run causes a resistive impact.
Your key note states that all inductive measurements are taken with large current input. This can override any artifact. There might be other hidden parameters to your windings that effect the process. By using Litz we can lower the current requirements. By using FE wire we can control the absorbtive media. By using square wave we can have a greater impact on the collective parameters of the build.

In the latest build I performed found 12 volts across the media creates huge voltages. As you use sine waves you can create a natural resonance that doesnt coincide with the effects of using a switch. The media is dependant on the sine wave whereas with a square wave 'We' get out of the way to see the Earth interact with the media. This latency is what we are experiencing on our current builds.

Let me correct my use of the 'Earth' here. We are talking about the independent atomic structure of the media we are using.


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #465 on: 2017-08-27, 15:22:43 »
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GK,

Thanks for your response.  I do have some comments below-

Quote from: giantkiller on 2017-08-26, 23:04:33
My voltage return pulse is at 500ns. Voltage leads the current by 90 degrees and vice versa in a capacitive circuit.
I mention this because I posted voltage response and you have a posted a capacitive response. So your voltage artifact should appear at 220ns.
This points out the variance of the build for any given configuration(stating the obvious here).
Put a low resistor to ground next time to slow things down. Just curious.

I'm not quite understanding you here.  I think the tests show a reflected current pulse in L1 (a shorted transmission line) and the corresponding voltage changes to the 50 ohm input impedance of the generator plus, a possible FID or free induction decay from the copper collector but I could be completely off base here!

Quote
But my suspicions are that the Earth field is not sufficient to produce any controlling artifact on the L3 outer winding and that the pulsing of the inner run causes a resistive impact.

I need to measure the ambient earth flux field in my area and correct the NMR resonant frequency for a reality check.  L3 was not used in these tests.  What I'm looking for are any low level events or artifacts that might support a positive energy feedback with gain.

Quote
Your key note states that all inductive measurements are taken with large current input. This can override any artifact. There might be other hidden parameters to your windings that effect the process. By using Litz we can lower the current requirements. By using FE wire we can control the absorbtive media. By using square wave we can have a greater impact on the collective parameters of the build.

Yes I agree.  The large signal measurements were only used to profile the inductive assembly and were not applied during the testing.

Quote
In the latest build I performed found 12 volts across the media creates huge voltages. As you use sine waves you can create a natural resonance that doesnt coincide with the effects of using a switch. The media is dependant on the sine wave whereas with a square wave 'We' get out of the way to see the Earth interact with the media. This latency is what we are experiencing on our current builds.

Let me correct my use of the 'Earth' here. We are talking about the independent atomic structure of the media we are using.

OK, I understand.  Yes, I chose to use a sine wave source to eliminate any effects from all the harmonics a square wave would produce as I am primarily looking for evidence of spin decay.  I have used a square wave source as it is an easy way to increase the signal amplitude. 

I have replicated your tests using a straight length of iron wire with various litz windings.  When pulsed from a low voltage supply, I too see a rather high voltage from the field collapse and the delayed hump.  Is this from the spin decay of the iron or ....?  I need to post my results on that thread to see what you think.

Regards,
Pm     
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #466 on: 2017-08-28, 15:18:20 »
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After more consideration, my tests in post #481 do not indicate any spin decay at ~6Mhz as I'd previously thought.  With the earth's field bias of ~1e-4T, the FID frequency would be magnitudes lower and I see no evidence of that so, the ~6Mhz frequency is most likely the self resonance of L1.

Pm
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #467 on: 2017-08-28, 19:43:36 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2017-08-28, 15:18:20
After more consideration, my tests in post #481 do not indicate any spin decay at ~6Mhz as I'd previously thought.  With the earth's field bias of ~1e-4T, the FID frequency would be magnitudes lower and I see no evidence of that so, the ~6Mhz frequency is most likely the self resonance of L1.

Pm

After more testing of the assembly in post #481 using a Rigol spectrum analyzer with higher resolution at the lower frequencies, the attached trace plot does show a small peak at 2.966kHz after averaging.  This was created with the generator source running continuous at an arbitrary 7.6MHz and sampling the current in L1.  This is more in line with what could be expected with the gyromagnetic ratio for copper at the low bias flux level of the earth's magnetic field IMO.  If this is true and the TPU does operate via an NMR means, then hows does one utilize this relatively low energy level to create the high output?

I plan to do testing with high frequency pulses applied with a repetition rate at or near ~3kHz and monitor the effects.

Pm
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #468 on: 2017-08-28, 20:07:21 »

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If this is true and the TPU does operate via an NMR means, then hows does one utilize this relatively low energy level to create the high output?
I have always felt that the TPU is nothing more than an iron based Michel Meyer device, there was a rumour in the early days that SM travelled to Europe to speak with the inventor of the original tec the TPU was based on, although i cannot remember the source of this rumour and is just that, Meyer was in France, we already have proven Iron is special with regards to NMR it is the only element we know of that has a stable NMR frequency at different intensities of magnetic field, this alone makes the Meyer device possible because of the AC method of power extraction.

It is also the only method with which we know the energy is huge and exists without violating any principles, we know that if uncontrolled power is fed back into the Meyer device it could suffer critical meltdown, we know that if the iron gets too hot when running that there will be a point where the NMR frequency will change, we know we have to precisely tune to the magic frequency for conversion and this is the hard bit as it needs to be exact, too many things similar to what we know about the TPU, we know that if we run above the curie point that the skin depth is cancelled and therefore allows all of the iron to participate.
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #469 on: 2017-08-28, 21:08:44 »

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I'm talking about the Meyer/Mace device, we know he had problems patenting his work and resorted to Czech to patent his later device.

I started a thread but gave up as my RF knowledge just was not up to scratch to get to a stage that the effect could be verified.

Thread is here.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3107.msg49672#msg49672
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #470 on: 2017-08-29, 01:52:07 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2017-08-28, 21:08:44
I'm talking about the Meyer/Mace device, we know he had problems patenting his work and resorted to Czech to patent his later device.

I started a thread but gave up as my RF knowledge just was not up to scratch to get to a stage that the effect could be verified.

Thread is here.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3107.msg49672#msg49672

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the heads up as I had followed that thread before but re-read it again for a refresher.  I'm not sure if I will continue in this direction as there has been so much effort by so many with seemingly null results :-\

Pm 
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #471 on: 2017-08-29, 21:00:54 »

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That is fair enough partzman, there is a lot of noise in that thread i am sorry for the time it must have taken to read it again, i believe the device does not need to be high power as stated in that thread, his first device was low power using a xtal oscillator, i am pretty positive it is the way to go though from my bifilar pulsing experiments that showed an 80Watt anomalous pulse using iron wire as the core in which i used 2 white noise sources to try and stumble on the frequency which it did randomly, this is what lead me to the Meyer device.
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #472 on: 2019-01-11, 17:11:54 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2017-04-29, 05:19:24
Might be interesting reading for those who interested in TPU replication

I am bumping this thread because after reading some of the concepts of Vasik's paper concerning the work of Michael (Mimo) I think it would benefit from some discussion. I am in the process of giving the paper a careful read, picking out some points of interest. Discussion welcome.

paper here: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=302.msg61310#msg61310

I am particularly interested in the point that there does not seem to be any electrical connection to the "collector" and that at least one end of the collector needs to be ground and polished flat.

Also the idea that the toroid cores produce a magnetic beam that exits the cores and enhances the effect in the collector.

To Vasik: apologies for not paying more attention to the paper, at the time many of us were focused on the Thoneman patent.
              Has anyone translated the .asm files to English?

Maybe this investigation deserves it's own thread?

P.S. Happy Birthday to Mike  :), who might take interest in  the hand drawn schematic, as it resembles some of his work!
« Last Edit: 2019-01-11, 18:05:31 by ion »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #473 on: 2019-01-11, 19:32:55 »
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Quote from: ion on 2019-01-11, 17:11:54
To Vasik: apologies for not paying more attention to the paper, at the time many of us were focused on the Thoneman patent.
              Has anyone translated the .asm files to English?

Hi ION,

Please do not worry. No need to apologize. I shared tons of information and it mostly ignored. Probably it just waiting for a better time and person who really interested in the subject.
I will translate comments in .asm files soon.

Regards,
-V.

Edit: I have attached archive with .asm files with translated comments to original message.
« Last Edit: 2019-01-11, 20:15:24 by Vasik041 »
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #474 on: 2019-01-11, 23:35:31 »
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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2019-01-11, 19:32:55
Hi ION,

Please do not worry. No need to apologize. I shared tons of information and it mostly ignored. Probably it just waiting for a better time and person who really interested in the subject.
I will translate comments in .asm files soon.

Regards,
-V.

Edit: I have attached archive with .asm files with translated comments to original message.

Dear Vasik

Thank you for translating the .asm files...makes them much easier to decipher. Regarding all the good stuff you post, I always download and try to read it all, but don't always comment right away.

Now for a few questions:

I don't see any electrical connections to the "collector". Specific instruction are to file the ends flat, but no mention of connections. Do you have any idea where the power was to be taken, as the implication is that the "phonons" are racing around the collector and being accelerated by the drive windings. He seems to imply that the collector is merely the catalyst that creates the ultrasonic shock wave.

Also several people seem to have submitted pictures of their builds. Have you had any contact with the other individuals or any further info on the device and how Michael came to his conclusions of how it might work?

Regards


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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