Some "New" Observations

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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations (Read 303996 times)

Centraflow	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #300 on: 2015-09-24, 18:52:38 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Quote from: ION on 2015-09-24, 13:58:51 I'm curious about the physical layout of your coils and the iron wire placement. I see that pairs of coils are in buck mode, from the + sign on them. Does the iron wire go through the center of the coils then double back as in your schematic? Could you explain why the pairs of coils are in buck mode? The iron wire is a toroid a coil of insulated iron wire which serves as the magnetic core and a generating coil for recharge of the input (no direct output to input), this is an unusual twist to looping The L1 to L4 are 4 coils in bucking mode to one another. Not shown on the sch: because it is difficult to draw, is that L1 is opposite to L2 and L3 is opposite to L4 on the toroid. As explained by a member here, this will give the flux a circular rotation around the iron core. The cap C1 (400v) creates a parametric oscillation by powering the coils in the switch off time, so inducing multiple frequencies by heterodyning. C2 and C3 supply the biasing and need to be HV of around 400v or C2 will blow, as I have found one day when that happened using only 100v caps, even at 400v C2 can get warm. It is very important that the diodes D1 and D2 are ultra fast for the frequency band that we are working in, they have to be able to block the return path so as the system pumps itself up, so to say, by the adding of same frequencies generated within the system. This toroid when running will vibrate if the frequency band is low, it will also in time heat up if the iron coil is loosly wound. The output ferrite toroid is to isolate the output, as the primary of that toroid is part of the parametric oscillator and important that it should be within the magnetic field of the main iron toroid (that I can't explain why, but I presume it is the interaction of the magnetic fields). I have re-posted below the spectrum shot, it is important to note the power levels due to same frequency addition, it is like two power supplies of 12v @ 10amps in parallel will give you 12v @ 20amps as an example. Regards Mike ------------------------ Some "New" Observations steap spec elf.png (8.41 kB, 672x299 - viewed 910 times.) --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

ion	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #301 on: 2015-09-24, 21:23:41 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Thank you for the explanation, Mike You certainly seem to have put some thought into this. Worth a try when I find the time. Regards ION --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Centraflow	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #302 on: 2015-09-25, 08:04:38 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Quote from: ION on 2015-09-24, 21:23:41 Thank you for the explanation, Mike You certainly seem to have put some thought into this. Worth a try when I find the time. Regards ION Your welcome, it really is worth a try, cost is very little and the possibilities to play around with it are huge regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

T-1000	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #303 on: 2015-09-25, 10:51:17 »
Sr. Member Posts: 375	Some food for thought: What happends when you have to opposite magnets each next to other and then suddenly change one of magnets magnetic field strength by shorting it out with the coil? Isn't that the "kick" from the next magnet like Otto was describing in his own TPU version? By default both magnets would neutralize summary magnetic field but if one of magnets become not a magnet for the moment, the magnetic field will appear from the second magnet. And would be free for induction..

verpies	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #304 on: 2015-09-25, 15:19:01 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3496	Quote from: T-1000 on 2015-09-25, 10:51:17 What happends when you have to opposite magnets each next to other and then suddenly change one of magnets magnetic field strength by shorting it out with the coil? Nothing if the magnets are not moving relative to each other. The flux or flux density will not be affected. ...and if they are moving relative to each other then placing a shorted coil around one magnet serves to maintain any magnetic flux penetrating the coil before the coil was shorted - that would be the flux of the magnet placed inside that coil. This effectively "hardens" that magnet to any change of flux that the other magnet might attempt to make.

T-1000	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #305 on: 2015-09-25, 16:18:34 »
Sr. Member Posts: 375	I can ftry to rephrase a bit: the \|N---S\|\|N/\/\S\| arrangament where the secondary magnet is the core for a coil. When coil get activated with \|S\/\/\N\| arrangement with same magnetic field strength of the poles of secondary magnet would interlock with the poles of the coil. What will happen on the joint point between two magnets? There can be flat coil placed or the just crossing wire of the coil (like in one of TPU patents - http://pesn.com/2006/07/28/9500292_Magnetic_Power_Inc_Patent_Application/MagneticPowerInc-patentapplication_US_2006_0163971.pdf ).

ion	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #306 on: 2015-09-25, 18:34:06 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: T-1000 on 2015-09-25, 16:18:34 I can ftry to rephrase a bit: the \|N---S\|\|N/\/\S\| arrangament where the secondary magnet is the core for a coil. When coil get activated with \|S\/\/\N\| arrangement with same magnetic field strength of the poles of secondary magnet would interlock with the poles of the coil. What will happen on the joint point between two magnets? There can be flat coil placed or the just crossing wire of the coil (like in one of TPU patents - http://pesn.com/2006/07/28/9500292_Magnetic_Power_Inc_Patent_Application/MagneticPowerInc-patentapplication_US_2006_0163971.pdf ). That patent application by Gunderson is certainly novel, but unfortunately does not work as claimed, nor does it have anything to do with the TPU of Steven Mark. This has been circulating around forums for a long time but "no cigar". Several folks built it and got negative results including myself. I built three different devices, trying various core materials. Magnetic Power Inc however likes it because it is good for their PR. and getting investors to cough up. The question that needs to be asked is : Why would Graham Gunderson abandon a device that claimed high COP and now be giving conferences on a device that barely, on occasion produces COP 1.003 and that still not verified by independent testing. I like Graham Gunderson, he has a lot of spunk and charm' but his affiliation with the "Free Energy Circus" and Aaron M...... makes me doubt his integrity. I personally would be ashamed to apply for a patent for a non-working idea, but that's just me. And if it somehow was accepted and I found out later it didn't work, I would withdraw it for sure. My stupidity in the business world or just integrity? More info on Magnetic Power Inc, now Chava group: http://overunity.com/1907/magnetic-power-inc-seems-to-have-died/#.VgaEEn1HB7M Smudge may be able to enlighten us about this device. « Last Edit: 2015-09-26, 12:53:50 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

verpies	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #307 on: 2015-09-25, 19:14:03 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3496	Quote from: T-1000 on 2015-09-25, 16:18:34 the \|N---S\|\|N/\/\S\| arrangament where the secondary magnet is the core for a coil. When coil get activated with \|S\/\/\N\| arrangement with same magnetic field strength of the poles of secondary magnet would interlock with the poles of the coil. What will happen on the joint point between two magnets? There can be flat coil placed or the just crossing wire of the coil (like in one of TPU patents - http://pesn.com/2006/07/28/9500292_Magnetic_Power_Inc_Patent_Application/MagneticPowerInc-patentapplication_US_2006_0163971.pdf ). You lost me. I understand that two magnets are attracting and one magnet is inside a coil and the other is not, but how do they move relative to each other?

ion	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #308 on: 2015-09-26, 13:09:21 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	An explanation of how the TPU works is given here: http://overunity.com/16030/tinmans-coil-shorting-circuit/msg461601/#msg461601 --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Smudge	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #309 on: 2015-09-26, 15:42:45 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1939	Quote from: ION on 2015-09-25, 18:34:06 Smudge may be able to enlighten us about this device. Can't add much to the background here. My experience, and I guess Graham's too, is that when you are paid to do research and invent things the company has some hold over you. When the management demand that you apply for a patent you have to go along with it even though the "invention" is not fully proven. (In my case, well before I got into the OU world, the invention was not even developed beyond the theoretical paper stage!) He had some sophisticated equipment at his disposal and I have no doubt that he did obtain the results he claimed. But whether the patent would allow others to get those results I couldn't say. Often it's what is not written in the patent that is the key. Although I worked with Graham on some things this was mainly using him to do measurements on my ideas, I had no dealings with his own ideas other than providing theoretical back-up. And I have never met him in person as he lives in Spokane in Washington State and I live in the UK. I do know that Graham worked for MPI's successor Chava but that employment ended and he went through some bad times. He is still around though, only recently I got an email from him. Smudge

ion	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #310 on: 2015-09-26, 17:35:36 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Thank you for that background Smudge. Here is what Mr Graham Gunderson says in the patent (last line in 0015): "Because of the novel magnetic interaction, the solid state generator of the present invention is a robust generator, requiring only a small electric force to operate." In patent talk that seems to say a little power input and a lot of power output. Perhaps Mr. Gunderson himself could respond here regarding why he nor Mr Goldes is marketing this device, but rather somehow Graham has forgotten how to make it and is struggling with a (maybe) COP> 1.00x device. At any rate, believers should build it for themselves and prepare to perhaps be disappointed. The upshot: You might stumble on something new by trying. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

evolvingape	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #311 on: 2015-09-26, 21:13:37 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2502 Everyman decries immorality	Quote from: ION on 2015-09-26, 17:35:36 Perhaps Mr. Gunderson himself could respond here regarding why he nor Mr Goldes is marketing this device, but rather somehow Graham has forgotten how to make it and is struggling with a (maybe) COP> 1.00x device. haha! --------------------------- Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs. Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security. Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.

Grumpy	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #312 on: 2015-09-27, 03:50:05 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: ION on 2015-09-26, 13:09:21 An explanation of how the TPU works is given here: http://overunity.com/16030/tinmans-coil-shorting-circuit/msg461601/#msg461601 implying the use of forces without back-torque? I liked spherics' explanation better.

TinMan	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #313 on: 2015-09-27, 11:46:28 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Grumpy on 2015-09-27, 03:50:05 implying the use of forces without back-torque? I liked spherics' explanation better. Exactly And this is how the RT works-no back torque when power is drawn from the stator coil. many have replicated this effect,but !! no one!! has been able to explain as to why. Am i the only one that can explain the effect taking place here? Will the guru's step up to the plate,and have a stab at it?. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

T-1000	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #314 on: 2015-09-28, 15:49:50 »
Sr. Member Posts: 375	Quote from: verpies on 2015-09-25, 19:14:03 You lost me. I understand that two magnets are attracting and one magnet is inside a coil and the other is not, but how do they move relative to each other? They won't move but the magnetic field will move due changed magnetic field density on the magnet with a coil. And the wire between the magnets will get induction from that. In the patent application I wanted to point onto picture as possible arrangement as it seem to me very similar to the situation described.

Smudge	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #315 on: 2015-09-28, 16:34:14 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1939	Quote from: ION on 2015-09-26, 17:35:36 Thank you for that background Smudge. Here is what Mr Graham Gunderson says in the patent (last line in 0015): "Because of the novel magnetic interaction, the solid state generator of the present invention is a robust generator, requiring only a small electric force to operate." In patent talk that seems to say a little power input and a lot of power output. Perhaps Mr. Gunderson himself could respond here regarding why he nor Mr Goldes is marketing this device, but rather somehow Graham has forgotten how to make it and is struggling with a (maybe) COP> 1.00x device. At any rate, believers should build it for themselves and prepare to perhaps be disappointed. The upshot: You might stumble on something new by trying. Just for interest I have been doing some FEMM modelling on this arrangement. First off I used linear materials with no saturation (because they solve faster in FEMM) and found that all the various fields simply add linearly and there is no coupling between the drive coil and the meandering wire passing through the core. However when I used practical materials that saturate then there is coupling, so the device is using saturation effects. The presence of the magnets stuck to the core is creating regions just below each magnet that is near saturation and that causes the axial flux to meander as it finds the least reluctance path. And the meandering flux couples well to the meandering wire. So my guess is that Graham was unwittingly using this effect, and his explanation for moving magnetic lines doing flux cutting is incorrect. Whether or not the scheme is OU is a much bigger job to answer in FEMM as it requires many (snap-shot) solutions and each solution uses many iterations to get to an answer (because of the non-linear material). I would have to leave my computer running for days. It may be noted that with the wire surrounded by core material the field from any induced current will create circular flux around the hole, and the thing will then act like a transformer with a magnetically screened secondary. There have been attempts at creating this type of transformer where the A field that drives current in the secondary penetrates the screen, so you get secondary voltage, but the magnetic field from the secondary current can't get back to the primary because of the magnetic screen. Effectively the secondary is buried within its own core material separate from the primary core. AFAIK these have not been successful, but that may be due to the high secondary inductance due to the screen. I would think that could be countered by using a series capacitor in the secondary to resonate with that high inductance, but whether anyone has tried that I don't know. As regards getting Graham to respond here I can invite him to join OUR, but I would not like to see him getting the stick aimed at Mr Goldes. The ownership of the patent is with MPI and its successor, you should be asking them why it has not been proceeded with. Smudge

verpies	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #316 on: 2015-09-28, 17:39:01 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3496	Quote from: Smudge on 2015-09-28, 16:34:14 As regards getting Graham to respond here I can invite him to join OUR, but I would not like to see him getting the stick aimed at Mr Goldes. The ownership of the patent is with MPI and its successor, you should be asking them why it has not been proceeded with. Show him this embodiment of his device enclosed in a potcore. ------------------------ Some "New" Observations Gunderson.png (128.12 kB, 789x505 - viewed 1032 times.) Some "New" Observations PotCore.png (13.4 kB, 311x306 - viewed 955 times.)

verpies	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #317 on: 2015-09-28, 17:41:41 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3496	Quote from: Smudge on 2015-09-28, 16:34:14 Just for interest I have been doing some FEMM modelling on this arrangement. First off I used linear materials with no saturation (because they solve faster in FEMM) and found that all the various fields simply add linearly and there is no coupling between the drive coil and the meandering wire passing through the core. Doesn't the flux cut the meandering wire?

Room3327	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #318 on: 2015-09-28, 18:09:42 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 568	Quote from: verpies on 2015-09-28, 17:41:41 Doesn't the flux cut the meandering wire? This is the problem I found with the Gunderson generator, the flux stays inside the core and bypasses the meandering wire, it does not flow through the holes (air) and induce the meandering wire. A magnetic flux prefers iron 7000 to 1 over air, I thought maybe doing this with an air core may work some what, but haven't had time to try it yet. --------------------------- "Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material" Nicola Tesla "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." Edmund Burke

verpies	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #319 on: 2015-09-28, 20:38:16 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3496	Quote from: Room3327 on 2015-09-28, 18:09:42 This is the problem I found with the Gunderson generator, the flux stays inside the core and bypasses the meandering wire, it does not flow through the holes (air) That the flux stays in the core and avoids the air hole is obvious ...but does it stay only on one side of the hole ?

Room3327	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #320 on: 2015-09-28, 22:19:23 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 568	Quote from: verpies on 2015-09-28, 20:38:16 That the flux stays in the core and avoids the air hole is obvious ...but does it stay only on one side of the hole ? I think what you are saying is, 'is there a flux free zone around the hole somewhere, like a flux shadow'. No not that I could find, the flux seems to spread around the hole and comeback together on the opposite side from what I could tell. It seems to just avoid the hole, which is just what you don't want happening, in this device. --------------------------- "Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material" Nicola Tesla "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." Edmund Burke

Smudge	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #321 on: 2015-09-29, 09:44:33 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1939	Quote from: Room3327 on 2015-09-28, 22:19:23 I think what you are saying is, 'is there a flux free zone around the hole somewhere, like a flux shadow'. No not that I could find, the flux seems to spread around the hole and comeback together on the opposite side from what I could tell. It seems to just avoid the hole, which is just what you don't want happening, in this device. If you have meandering flux that passes between the meandering wires then you get classical transformer induction that doesn't involve flux cutting. So the lack of flux within the holes is of no consequence. It is the changing vector potential in the holes that then drives the electrons in the wire. My FEMM simulations show that you do get meandering axial flux but it can't be observed from the flux plots because they show total flux. It can be inferred using the flux linkage parameter that FEMM obtains. That flux linkage includes the fixed magnet fluxes so you have to apply two values of drive current then take the difference in flux linkage to get the coupling effect. I have also plotted the flux transverse to the center line (without the holes present) for two different values of drive current, like plus 10 and minus 10. These show a complex cyclic pattern for the flux across the core from the series of magnets but you can clearly see the changes occuring for the two drive currents. And those changes couple to the meandering wire if it is in the right place. Move the whole sequence of holes and the coupling disappears. In the superimposed images below, the black and grey lines indicate the two values of drive current. The hole positions would be as indicated by the red lines and you can clearly see the alternating change of transverse field synchronized with the hole spacing. The coupling only occurs with non-linear material, so if your magnets were not strong enough you would get no effect. Also there could be an optimum magnet separation related to the core thickness (thickness dimension from upper magnet to lower magnet). Smudge ------------------------ Some "New" Observations Transverse field.jpg (134.41 kB, 616x316 - viewed 944 times.)

Allcanadian	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #322 on: 2015-09-29, 18:27:49 »
Hero Member Posts: 2735	@Smudge I would agree and there are many variables to consider. One is symmetry and if a current carrying wire produces a magnetic field circling the wire then a circling magnetic field may induce a current in a wire without supposedly "cutting" the conductor.. Another is field interaction and it may be that the PM's are simply to hold the core near saturation and the saturation and geometry prevent the output field from translating back to the input. The thing to remember here is that we know "normal" does not work therefore if it does work it must be something else. Find that "something else" and you have your solution. Again... we know normal does not work so stop doing it... try something else. AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

Room3327	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #323 on: 2015-09-29, 18:42:56 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 568	Quote from: Smudge on 2015-09-29, 09:44:33 If you have meandering flux that passes between the meandering wires then you get classical transformer induction that doesn't involve flux cutting. So the lack of flux within the holes is of no consequence. It is the changing vector potential in the holes that then drives the electrons in the wire. My FEMM simulations show that you do get meandering axial flux but it can't be observed from the flux plots because they show total flux. It can be inferred using the flux linkage parameter that FEMM obtains. That flux linkage includes the fixed magnet fluxes so you have to apply two values of drive current then take the difference in flux linkage to get the coupling effect. I have also plotted the flux transverse to the center line (without the holes present) for two different values of drive current, like plus 10 and minus 10. These show a complex cyclic pattern for the flux across the core from the series of magnets but you can clearly see the changes occurring for the two drive currents. And those changes couple to the meandering wire if it is in the right place. Move the whole sequence of holes and the coupling disappears. In the superimposed images below, the black and grey lines indicate the two values of drive current. The hole positions would be as indicated by the red lines and you can clearly see the alternating change of transverse field synchronized with the hole spacing. The coupling only occurs with nonlinear material, so if your magnets were not strong enough you would get no effect. Also there could be an optimum magnet separation related to the core thickness (thickness dimension from upper magnet to lower magnet). Smudge Hi Smudge, Good post, I obviously am not in your league with the Femm analysis and all, I just built this from the patent and tried it. I used neo magnets (very strong) on a five inch powdered iron core, three quarters of an inch thick, I drilled 8 evenly spaced quarter inch holes through the center of the thickness for the meandering wire. I never saw any kind of output from that winding no matter what I tried, although I'm sure I didn't try everything that I could of, after figuring out there was no flux action in the holes I gave up. The meandering wire is at a 90 degree angle to the coils which makes transformer coupling to it very low, and I never saw much on the oscilloscope. The meandering winding was 20 ga. 16 turns, the input winding was 22 ga. about 130 turns which I later added another 100 turns to. I really wanted it to work and was unable to make it happen, maybe we can still do it? Room --------------------------- "Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material" Nicola Tesla "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." Edmund Burke

Smudge	Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #324 on: 2015-09-29, 19:11:33 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1939	Quote from: Room3327 on 2015-09-29, 18:42:56 Hi Smudge, Good post, I obviously am not in your league with the Femm analysis and all, I just built this from the patent and tried it. I used neo magnets (very strong) on a five inch powdered iron core, three quarters of an inch thick, I drilled 8 evenly spaced quarter inch holes through the center of the thickness for the meandering wire. I never saw any kind of output from that winding no matter what I tried, although I'm sure I didn't try everything that I could of, after figuring out there was no flux action in the holes I gave up. The meandering wire is at a 90 degree angle to the coils which makes transformer coupling to it very low, and I never saw much on the oscilloscope. The meandering winding was 20 ga. 16 turns, the input winding was 22 ga. about 130 turns which I later added another 100 turns to. I really wanted it to work and was unable to make it happen, maybe we can still do it? Room IMO you won't get powdered iron cores to saturate even with strong neo's. So no surprise that you got a null result. The patent mentions every possible type of core, but that is not Graham speaking, that is the patent attorney making the patent as wide as possible. I don't know what core Graham used, but I do know he had some uncut metglas cores. (The C cores are made by tape winding a toroidal core, then cutting it in half. He managed to get large uncut cores for his experiments.) He also had a collection of ferrite cores. If you go the metglas route they are really tough things to drill holes in, you kneed a diamond tipped drill bit. Smudge

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