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Author Topic: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices.  (Read 196334 times)
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img  gotoluc
Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #300 on: 2015-07-25, 09:20:49 »
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Hi everyone,

nice job on the resonance Grum!...  I'm glad TK is still testing. Thanks for sharing guys,

No sleep yet at  4:15am.  My fist test video of the RT is just about done. I think you guys are going to like it. I had the ideal a few weeks back and been wanting to test it.

Link to video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pib2fpHRsaM

Luc
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #301 on: 2015-07-25, 15:02:13 »

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Thanks luc I'm sure grum Allan and I will be colluding on how to implement on our motors!
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #302 on: 2015-07-25, 15:54:24 »
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Hi everyone,

thanks Jim for your positive feedback.

Apparently UFO politics used a PWM in his experiments. I didn't know since I only looked at his topic at the beginning and lost interest then.

Using a pwm was a quick and easy way to see what the effect of sending some of the outrageous current (2.4A) the rotor coil consumes back through flyback to the motors stator coil and load. The effect was a positive, so I shared it.

My original idea was and I still may do it, was to modify the brushes by having two sets of brushes. The second set would be a little advanced (from the first set) and would have a diode so when the first set of brushes comes off the commutator segment the rotor coils flyback would be collected by the second set of brushes and reused. That's what I wanted to do. However, it's a more complicated build and a few days ago I thought of using a pwm to chop the DC input and collecting the flyback multiple times while the brushes are still on the segment. This allowed to test the effect before hand to see if it's a worthwhile effect to pursue. I not trying to take someone else idea or work and claim it as mine. I'm only interested in results, not fame and fortune.

None of the pwm input goes through the stator coil diode. What you are seeing in the video is only rotor flyback going to the stator coil.
Luc
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #303 on: 2015-07-25, 18:18:53 »

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Quote from: gotoluc on 2015-07-25, 15:54:24


My original idea was and I still may do it, was to modify the brushes by having two sets of brushes. The second set would be a little advanced (from the first set) and would have a diode so when the first set of brushes comes off the commutator segment the rotor coils flyback would be collected by the second set of brushes and reused. That's what I wanted to do. However, it's a more complicated build and a few days ago I thought of using a pwm to chop the DC input and collecting the flyback multiple times while the brushes are still on the segment. This allowed to test the effect before hand to see if it's a worthwhile effect to pursue. I not trying to take someone else idea or work and claim it as mine. I'm only interested in results, not fame and fortune.


Luc
Luc
There is no inductive kickback from the rotor coils of one of these motors,as the coils are all connected-there is never an open circuit for an inductive kickback current to flow out from. What you see as high voltage spikes on the scope is only brush noise/arcing. The coils of the rotor form one big current loop. RF is generated from brush arcing due to high current's,and more so bad brush contact to the rotors armature.

Quote
Quote
None of the pwm input goes through the stator coil diode. What you are seeing in the video is only rotor flyback going to the stator coil
.

I would say this is incorrect,and that your PWM pulses are indeed what is going through to your stator coil. Using your diode setup,capture the output from the rotor diode into a high voltage cap,and see what the voltage climbs to.

below picture compliments of verpies,showing the two different styles of windings.


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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #304 on: 2015-07-25, 20:17:03 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
How to loop test an apparent COP>1 device...


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img  TinselKoala
Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #305 on: 2015-07-25, 21:54:09 »
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Shorting field coils through diode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1RMtlJnk
   
img  gotoluc
Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #306 on: 2015-07-26, 03:44:50 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2015-07-25, 18:18:53
Luc
There is no inductive kickback from the rotor coils of one of these motors,as the coils are all connected-there is never an open circuit for an inductive kickback current to flow out from. What you see as high voltage spikes on the scope is only brush noise/arcing. The coils of the rotor form one big current loop. RF is generated from brush arcing due to high current's,and more so bad brush contact to the rotors armature.
.

I would say this is incorrect,and that your PWM pulses are indeed what is going through to your stator coil. Using your diode setup,capture the output from the rotor diode into a high voltage cap,and see what the voltage climbs to.

Wow :o...  I'm surprised of your answer and of how sure you are of it.  Is this really you writing this or have the MIB taken over your account?

In any even, I made a video to demonstrate your suggestion to send the flyback to a cap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3-CqJLUKfc

Luc
   
img  verpies
Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #307 on: 2015-07-26, 10:09:43 »

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Quote from: TinMan on 2015-07-25, 18:18:53
There is no inductive kickback from the rotor coils of one of these motors, as the coils are all connected-there is never an open circuit for an inductive kickback current to flow out from.   The coils of the rotor form one big current loop
That's true.
The brushes periodically short windings as they span two commutator segments during their travel.  Filing down brushes minimizes the time during which two commutator segments (and windings) are shorted.

To avoid this shorting altogether, the brushes' tips would have to be filed down to a width less than the gap between commutator segments. This is both impractical and undesirable as this will interrupt the current to the windings and inductors "hate" when this is done to them.

Unlike capacitors, inductors do not create spikes and sparks when shorted, but when opened - they do.
In other words: inductors "like" to be shorted - capacitors do not.

Quote from: TinMan on 2015-07-25, 18:18:53
What you see as high voltage spikes on the scope is only brush noise/arcing. RF is generated from brush arcing due to high current's,and more so bad brush contact to the rotors armature.
Yes

Quote from: TinMan on 2015-07-25, 18:18:53
below picture compliments of verpies,showing the two different styles of windings.
...and Grum mentioned yet another type of rotor winding

@ Grumage
Please alter my diagram to show what you meant.
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #308 on: 2015-07-26, 10:45:38 »

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Quote from: gotoluc on 2015-07-26, 03:44:50
In any even, I made a video to demonstrate your suggestion to send the flyback to a cap.
A PWM module (or intermittent brush contact) interrupts the current flowing through the windings.  Such interruption of current always causes inductors to rebel and produce high voltage spike to maintain their current.  I do not want to call it a "flyback spike" because the current through the winding during that spike does not reverse direction.

If your were using pure DC and the current through the windings was not interrupted then you'd have nothing to capture in your capacitor.
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #309 on: 2015-07-26, 10:49:03 »

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A few things I've learned today.
I used one of my pulse motor circuits to drive the motor. Pretty ordinary performance.
I shorted the stator coils using a reed. Not much joy there. Lowered the output.
On the upside I found that with more area of the brush making contact the greater the output and therefore lower current draw ( I love that new law)

Also here is something weird - I gave up smoking last year and now I'm a vaper (verb) If I exhale the vapour (noun) near the machine it slows down considerably. Shorting perhaps? very weird.


My motor unloaded draws about 2.1A loaded 1.5A . That's having the stators in series. More speed does not necessarily equal more output. Now i think I need to go and get a washing machine :)

I've also been studying the Alexander patent which is fascinating in relationship to this motor.

Which caused me to think about the rotor windings. This guy is winding almost the common way except they are all separate coils. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9CLtlkl6fM
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #310 on: 2015-07-26, 11:21:51 »

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My added two penny worth :)

regards

Mike 8)


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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #311 on: 2015-07-26, 11:36:11 »

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Quote from: Centraflow on 2015-07-26, 11:21:51
My added two penny worth :)

regards

Mike 8)

Interesting… thanks for this. Parts list as well! Only need to buy the Zener. :) I'll have to have a play with that.
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #312 on: 2015-07-26, 12:21:00 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2015-07-26, 10:09:43

...and Grum mentioned yet another type of rotor winding

@ Grumage
Please alter my diagram to show what you meant.

Dear Verpies.

As far as I'm aware there are only two configurations for Armature coil winding, Lap and Wave. It was 30 years ago since " School ", I wonder if the terminology has changed ?

I have attached linear pictures of these winding methods for reference.

Edit. I have also attached a drawing of how I think Tinman's brush tipping looks pictorially.

Cheers Grum.


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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #313 on: 2015-07-26, 12:44:02 »

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I agree with your tipping diagram Grum. Still waving at my lap over the other stuff
« Last Edit: 2015-07-26, 13:11:39 by JimBoot »
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #314 on: 2015-07-26, 14:34:08 »

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Quote from: JimBoot on 2015-07-26, 11:36:11
Interesting… thanks for this. Parts list as well! Only need to buy the Zener. :) I'll have to have a play with that.

Jim the zener is only to fix the upper limit of voltage to 15v, like Brad I have used an IRF 540 which has a gate full on at 4v and a max of 20v, most mosfets are on at 8-10v, this one is max 4v ;) ;) R1 is a current drop resistor also for the gate, as possibly the L1 will supply more than the mosfet likes :) D3 must be fast, the rest does not matter so much. This is a simple circuit and proven, the difference is the interaction of the rotor/stator in relation to using as (L2) a bucking coil. Not only voltage but current is created (added) to the output.

Self run!!!!!!! you tell me, proof is in the eating ;)

regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #315 on: 2015-07-26, 15:01:09 »

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Mike,

i tried your circuit, but other then lightning up a 6V/2W bulb with some difficulty, no abnormalities found up till now.

See video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwwEVgFhThs&feature=youtu.be

Below screenshot is the signal on the gate (blue) and the drain (yellow).


Thanks,  regards Itsu
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #316 on: 2015-07-26, 15:30:04 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2015-07-26, 15:01:09
Mike,

i tried your circuit, but other then lightning up a 6V/2W bulb with some difficulty, no abnormalities found up till now.

See video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwwEVgFhThs&feature=youtu.be

Below screenshot is the signal on the gate (blue) and the drain (yellow).


Thanks,  regards Itsu

Hi Itsu

The circuit is a straight foreward buck boost but the timing is critical with the rotor. This is because the phasing is all important between rotor generation and coil release energy when the mosfet switches off (opens). All the energies need to add at the same time, so the switching of the mosfet is all very critical with the passing of the rotor. A means of changing the timing on the gate I think will show this, as you have shown playing with the brushes O0

You did check the coil directions? this is all important as it will work against you if you have it wrong, there are many different configurations, Brad showed 2 on one coil, here we have 2 coils so this is 4, then between the 2 coils all in relation to the rotor I think will make it more.

There seems to be a very subtle effect when all is in the right phase, i think Brad was trying to show this without going into huge detail. We need to add and not subtract, as I have said, buck boost works, but here we have added input at a particular phase, get it together at the right time and it will take off ;)

regards

Mike 8)


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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #317 on: 2015-07-26, 15:52:39 »

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Mike, 

yes i tried all combinations of coils hookup, i only have 2 separate field coils and the rotor coil.

I added variable brush timing, but this did not improve things, see:    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI464sfwBLM&feature=youtu.be

Not sure how i could delay the gate timing, you mean in an electronically way?


Regards Itsu 
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #318 on: 2015-07-26, 16:55:13 »

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Hi Itsu

You said you only have 1v, where? the gate or the charging of the L2 coil? in either case that is not enough and something is wrong with the just generating side of things, never mind the circuit!!!

regards

Mike 8)

PS the IRF 540 needs min 3v, normal is 4v to switch full on


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #319 on: 2015-07-26, 18:17:40 »

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Mike,

the mentioned 1V was at the drain where the yellow probe is.  This will not light up the 6V/2W bulb.

But as you can see in the screenshot above, there the drain voltage is about 5V, then the bulb is lid, which is when i hit a sweetspot with the timing and/or tension of the brushes.

The gate signal is much higher and often is limited by the 15V zener to..... 15V.

So the MOSFET is switching OK (>4V gate to source voltage), but there is sometimes just not enough drain voltage to light up the bulb.


Regards Itsu   
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #320 on: 2015-07-26, 23:04:10 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2015-07-26, 18:17:40
Mike,

the mentioned 1V was at the drain where the yellow probe is.  This will not light up the 6V/2W bulb.

But as you can see in the screenshot above, there the drain voltage is about 5V, then the bulb is lid, which is when i hit a sweetspot with the timing and/or tension of the brushes.

The gate signal is much higher and often is limited by the 15V zener to..... 15V.

So the MOSFET is switching OK (>4V gate to source voltage), but there is sometimes just not enough drain voltage to light up the bulb.


Regards Itsu   



Turn L2 connections around, does not make sense that the gate voltage is higher than the drain voltage unless L2 is going against the drain, opposite charge from the rotor.

regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
img  JimBoot
Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #321 on: 2015-07-27, 02:14:28 »

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Hi Itsu,
It doesn't look like your brushes are tangentially connected to the commutator like in Grum's diagram? I've found that is where I got most output.

Mike I was getting 36v on my scope (which is why it no longer works) across the stator coil with diode. I'll try an IRF1405 instead I think and omit the zener.
Thanks
Jim
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #322 on: 2015-07-27, 05:14:44 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2015-07-26, 10:45:38
A PWM module (or intermittent brush contact) interrupts the current flowing through the windings.  Such interruption of current always causes inductors to rebel and produce high voltage spike to maintain their current.  I do not want to call it a "flyback spike" because the current through the winding during that spike does not reverse direction.

You don't want to call it a "flyback spike"... so what do you want to call the effect when a coils current is shut off?
How can the current not reverse direction when the mosfet opens? if it didn't the capacitor would not get charged so fast and so high since the blocking diode only allows reverse current to go through?

Quote from: verpies on 2015-07-26, 10:45:38
If your were using pure DC and the current through the windings was not interrupted then you'd have nothing to capture in your capacitor.

Yes I agree! and why I used a switch to interrupt the input current and added a diode in the reverse direction of the input current.

Luc
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #323 on: 2015-07-27, 06:18:14 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2015-07-26, 15:52:39
Mike,  

yes i tried all combinations of coils hookup, i only have 2 separate field coils and the rotor coil.

I added variable brush timing, but this did not improve things, see:    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI464sfwBLM&feature=youtu.be

Not sure how i could delay the gate timing, you mean in an electronically way?


Regards Itsu  

Itsu, look at the close up of Brads brushes. They are not in a strait line to each other. You will need this variable which you were kind of doing when you pushed the brushes from side to side.

Read the OU topic also for information as these were posted some days ago. http://overunity.com/15901/tinman-generator-research-moderated-topic/msg456925/#msg456925

Luc
   
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Re: TinMans reserch and experiments into free energy devices. « Reply #324 on: 2015-07-27, 06:21:43 »

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Quote from: gotoluc on 2015-07-27, 06:18:14
Itsu, look at the close up of Brads brushes. They are not in a strait line to each other. You will need this variable which you were kind of doing when you pushed the brushes from side to side.

Luc
Both Grum and I and I think Luc? Have found greater output when "tuned" in that fashion. Also The brushes will be needed to be shaved to fit that profile for optimum performance. Discovered that one last night.
   
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