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Author Topic: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759  (Read 56758 times)

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Peter,

the shipping costs was 10 pounds, so not bad at all.

Itsu
   

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Thats really good then, so we now have a great source of all types of wire including iron  O0
   

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It was a nightmare to straighten out this spool, the "occasional twist" turned out to be one almost every turn on the spool!

The thick (1mm) wires are hard to manipulate to go straight, and tend to split the bonding causing 2 separate wires over several inches here and there.

Anyway, i managed to wind 175 turns with about 4mm in between spacing on a 1m long former (16cm diameter).

I have some length left from the spool which i can use for some other projects.

As the circumference of the 16cm diameter former is 51cm, i have 8925cm (175*51) = 89m 25cm length of dual bonded 1mm wire, see pictures.

Next i will use my PICO-PULSER to measure the reflection time of the pulse to calculate the velocity factor of this coil / transmission line.
Also the char. impedance will be measured.

Regards Itsu

   
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That's very nice, Itsu!

I guess I'm too late with my advice:
The way to straighten solid wire is to _stretch_ it slightly. Clamp one end securely, roll out the length you want to straighten, and "pull" on it ( wrap free end around a piece of wood for a good grip) until it gets a slight stretch in it. This will straighten out bends and minor kinks. It will also make it easy to "untwist" the twists.
And the way to make a coil with evenly-spaced turns is to wrap the straightened wire, and some spacer material like thicker wire, cord or rope, at the same time, in parallel. Then remove the spacer cord once the coil is wound.
   

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Thanks TK,

The dual bonded wire is kind of brittle, so not much force can be applied before it splits.
I did use an extra wire parallel to get the 4mm spacing, which works ok.



Further measurements:

178 turns,  50.7cm each so a total length of 90m 24cm.
Open end shows MOhms with the fluke, so no shorts
LCR meter shows 20nF capacitance!  no readable inductance because of the open end
Time domain measurements shows a velocity factor of 0,64 (64%) of this dual bonded magnet wire.
Char. impedance turns out to be 30 Ohm.

For these last 2 calculations, please check the video for any math errors or wrongly applied concepts.

Screenshot shows the difference between the pico-pulse and the (open end) reflection (1.07us).

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP2aUDFmARo&feature=youtu.be


Regards Itsu
   

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I created a 2 * 11pF capacitor to be used as in the diagram Fig.2

 

Questions:

1) Above i calculated the velocity factor (0.64) for this dual bonded wire.
But it turns out that the FG is NOT across the both coil ends, but across 1 coil (see diagram Fig.2).
Does the velocity factor (0.64) still holds for a single wire of that dual bonded wire pair??


 
2) Looking at the diagram we see Fig. 2 as the schematic, and Fig. 3b as the physical layout.
Arie talks about 180° phase difference between the 2 coils, in fact in his patent he says:

"This invention concerns the against each other oscillating of two electromagnetic fields"
and:
"If there is a 180° phase difference (equal capacitance's) between the electron-flows, then we are dealing with
nodes and anti-nodes which are moving along the wire pairs"

But my measurements up till now (see video) do not show this phase difference, in fact the signals across the both wires are "in phase".

In the video i have the FG ground lead at the junction of the 2 capacitors and probing with the scope (2 probes)
from this ground point to both points A and B

Also (not in the video) when probing in stead of points A and B the end of the coils (near points 7 and 8 ) i still have signals "in phase"

Why do i not see/have this 180° phase difference between the 2 coils??

Video here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq4HN4_Ld6Y&feature=youtu.be

The screenshot is from the situation in the video, input 4.77MHz sine wave 5vpp from the FG,
yellow across the cap A  (to middle ground)
Blue across the cap B    (to middle ground)
red both above signals added  

There is a 56 Ohm resistor as load across points A and B  (Vuit = Vout)


Thanks,   regards Itsu
   
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I created a 2 * 11pF capacitor to be used as in the diagram Fig.2
 

Questions:

[clip]

 But my measurements up till now (see video) do not show this phase difference, in fact the signals across the both wires are "in phase".

In the video i have the FG ground lead at the junction of the 2 capacitors and probing with the scope (2 probes)
from this ground point to both points A and B

Also (not in the video) when probing in stead of points A and B the end of the coils (near points 7 and 8 ) i still have signals "in phase"

Why do i not see/have this 180° phase difference between the 2 coils??

[clip]

Thanks,   regards Itsu


Hi Itsu,

Well, I have a thought regarding this particular DeGeus patent.  It is interesting to note that the schematic seems to show counterwound windings but the physical layouts all show bifilar windings.  IMO, you will only find a 180 degree phase shift between the windings if they are are counterwound with equal capacitance's at the output.  I'm probably wrong about this but it is a possibility!

Regards,
partzman
   

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Hi partzman,

yes, that was also my idea, thanks for confirming this.

Looks like the patent is not (with reason??) clear on this.      I could try to swap lets say the upper coil leads and see what will happen.
Another idea is that he really uses 2 FG's, each (in opposite phase) feeding a separate coil.

Thanks,  regards Itsu
   

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Hi Itsu,

I think you have the function generator connected wrong.  IMO the connection to the junction between the two capacitors is not the ground connection, but is the live connection.  Then you have the possibility for the two points A and B to have different phases.  Also the 56 ohms across A and B should be removed as it is not the load for the function generator and effectively ties the two voltages together.

Smudge
   

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Hi Smudge,

thanks,  i did reverse the FG leads earlier without any change.
But i did it again and now also removing the 56 Ohm load resistor (i know its not the FG load,  but it was meant as the output load).
But again probing points A and B with the 2 probes (ground reference still the FG black lead now attached to lets say point 7) gives the 2 signals in phase, see screenshot.

Perhaps i need to isolate the FG from ground, and measure the points A and B using the middle capacitor point as probe ground reference?


Thanks,  regards Itsu

 
   
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Hi Itsu,

I did a quick setup using two vertical wound coils that are easy to position either as bifilar or counterwound.  The scope shot below shows the coils positioned as counterwound with two 221pfd caps arbitrarily chosen and positioned as per the DeGeus patent. I placed the ground of the generator at the junction of these caps with the hot lead connected to one end of one of the coils. The other end of the remaining coil is left open and connected to CH3 (cyan).  CH1 (yel) is the output of the generator. As you can see, there is 180 degrees of phase shift.  The frequency here is 4MHz and even though there are current measurements shown, I made no attempt at any other measurements of this setup.

Hope this is of some help!

partzman
   

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Nice work Itsu  O0
If you were to send 2 spaced small pulses that were spaced to the time period of the SRF of the bifilar i wonder if the impedance would reflect the point that for an instance the coil is operating at resonance, so first pulse the impedance would be 27 Ohm but zero for the time period of the 2nd pulse.

As i stated earlier Arie said it is the current that is 180 Degrees out of phase not the voltage, i have managed to get 180 degrees phase change in the bifilar setup but only at higher frequencies and only by measuring the current phase in each leg of the bifilar.
   

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Also worth noting is that Arie is operating his coil at 2 x the resonant Frequency.

Quote
1) Above i calculated the velocity factor (0.64) for this dual bonded wire.
But it turns out that the FG is NOT across the both coil ends, but across 1 coil (see diagram Fig.2).
Does the velocity factor (0.64) still holds for a single wire of that dual bonded wire pair??
You can measure each coil of the bifilar independently, this is great if the wire is not bonded because each could be measured with your velocity device and trimmed so both match.

   

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Hi Itsu,

I did a quick setup using two vertical wound coils that are easy to position either as bifilar or counterwound.  The scope shot below shows the coils positioned as counterwound with two 221pfd caps arbitrarily chosen and positioned as per the DeGeus patent. I placed the ground of the generator at the junction of these caps with the hot lead connected to one end of one of the coils. The other end of the remaining coil is left open and connected to CH3 (cyan).  CH1 (yel) is the output of the generator. As you can see, there is 180 degrees of phase shift.  The frequency here is 4MHz and even though there are current measurements shown, I made no attempt at any other measurements of this setup.

Hope this is of some help!

partzman

Hi Partzman,

ok,  very good,  i swapped the Fig. 2 upper coil, and now at certain points (the 2 wavelength point at 4.4MHz, the 3 wavelength point at 6.2MHz etc.)  i do see a sudden phase shift to almost 180°, see screenshot.
I also made a short video showing these different points phase shifts, but.........
i don't think we should be using counterwound coils, allthough i agree the Fig. 2 schematic is pointing to that.

The video to be seen here:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mNroJnVwI&feature=youtu.be

Any other solutions on creating a 180° voltage phase shift using the normally bifilar wound coils?


Peter,  i do not understand your remark about 2 spaced small pulses,   i dont think it will influence the char. impedance of any transmission line.

Could you please point out where Arie was mentioning the 180° phase shift between current and voltage?  I don't think i can be that much ever (max 90°)
The below diagram Fig. 1b clearly shows 2 voltages being 180° out of phase (Vmax) and also in fig. 1e and Fig. 1d (for square waves)  

Finally, for pulsing a transmission line (like the dual bonded wire is), you need 2 wires, so i cannot "measure each coil of the bifilar independently,this is great if the wire is not bonded because each could be measured with your velocity device and trimmed so both match"

Thanks all,   regards Itsu

« Last Edit: 2015-04-23, 21:32:17 by Itsu »
   

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Itsu
Please see my post 10 on first page there is a quote from the patent
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2897.msg47533#msg47533

Quote
If there is a 180 °  phase difference ( equal capacities ) between the electron currents

It is the 2 bifilar currents not voltages that there is a 180 degree phase shift.
   

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Ok Peter,

i also had repeated that statement in my post #31 above  :)  :

"This invention concerns the against each other oscillating of two electromagnetic fields"
and:
"If there is a 180° phase difference (equal capacitance's) between the electron-flows, then we are dealing with
nodes and anti-nodes which are moving along the wire pairs"


Yes,  that could indicate that the currents should be 180° out of phase, but why then the pictures in the patent showing Vmax in the both coils also 180° out of phase?

I measured (together with the voltages again) the current with my current probe in first the red bifilar coil, then in the green bifilar coil (see the green trace), which shows they are both in phase too  :D

Regards Itsu
   

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Hi Itsu

Yes it's not very clear, is the magnetic field in phase with the current or a resulting phase with regard to voltage & current??
   

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Peter,

good point, i could try to measure the magnetic field with my Hall sensor probe, will try that tomorrow.

Regards Itsu
   

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All,

Here i show the usage of a little gadget i use for years measuring the RF on coils etc.
It clearly detects the presents of 1, 2 or 3 wavelengths on my coil, which could be very usefull.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCeJSbDxVmc&feature=youtu.be

Regards Itsu
« Last Edit: 2015-04-23, 23:15:30 by Itsu »
   

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For these last 2 calculations, please check the video for any math errors or wrongly applied concepts.
Concepts are fine but the latter Δt marker is not placed correctly.  The time delta should be shorter than 1.07μs when measured to the beginning of the reflection.
Also, I would use a 47Ω pot to measure the characteristic impedance more precisely (... or at least 100Ω)

Here i show the usage of a little gadget i use for years measuring the RF on coils etc.
It clearly detects the presents of 1, 2 or 3 wavelengths on my coil, which could be very usefull.
Yes, the beauty of standing waves.
Take a look at Tinsel's avatar which depicts a string of neon bulbs showing standing waves in real time and all at once.
« Last Edit: 2015-04-23, 23:18:59 by verpies »
   

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Hi Itsu
That's a handy gadget, Don Smith used neon's to do the same but he was using higher voltages.

So i wonder if we can get 180 degree current phase then maybe at the fundamental resonant frequency you maybe able to detect the 2 out of phase nodes, being 180 degree out of phase then each would be a quarter of each end of the coil, if your meter had a centre zero maybe it would detect the negative node peak as well as the positive peak node.
   
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Itsu and Peterae,

Here is the result of the same pair of vertical coils as in the previous counterwound test but now positioned as bifilar.  I also replaced the caps with two 22pfd with the connections remaining the same.  At 6.14Mhz for this arrangement, the voltages between windings did shift to nearly a perfect 180 degrees out of phase and the currents (not shown) also were 180 degrees out of phase but not equal in amplitude. Somewhat above and below this frequency, the voltage phase transitioned to 0 degrees differential.

The inductance of each coil is 16uh with 15 turns each and the inter-winding capacitance is ~40pfd.

The one thing DeGeus points out is that when running at optimum with his setup which I'm sure you are well aware of, the voltage across each line will be ~2x the generator.

EDIT: Note that a quick resonance calc with the coil specs puts the fo at 6.291Mhz.

Regards,
partzman

 
   

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Hi Itsu
That's a handy gadget
Let's call it "AVU meter" - from Avramenko VU meter
   

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Well that's interesting Partzman, not enough time right now to get the details from the patent but Arie is using a 16cm diameter former wound to a length of 2 x diameter or 32cm, so he has a large amount of turns and in the patent he runs at a frequency higher than yours i think.
Good to see you are getting the phase shift.

Hi verpies
yes i thought that was an Avramenko plug on the meter, very clever, i will try making one when i get a chance.
Thanks
   

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Ok,  my idea was to stay away from any resonance point of these coils as i think it is not the purpose of this invention to run at resonance.

Anyway, i just measured the both coils and the data for the both coils/wires (one is green colored, the other red) is:
(using single loop wire around the middle of the coils 5Vpp sine wave input from the FG)

Gr inductance 828.3uH    1st/highest resonance  823KHz @ 90Vpp, 2th resonance at 2.277MHz @ 77Vpp
Rd inductance 828.2uH    1st/highest resonance 818KHz @ 87Vpp, 2th resonance at 2.294MHz @ 77Vpp

Reconnecting like Fig.2 (so now including the 2 caps) i see corresponding peaks at 739KHz @150Vpp, 2.901MHz @52Vpp, 4.832MHz @15Vpp etc.

But always the both voltage signals are in phase.

Will try with higher value capacitors.

Regards Itsu


 
   
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