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OverUnity Research > Benches > Peterae Public Bench (Moderator: Peterae) > A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759
2024-11-27, 07:37:01
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Author Topic: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759  (Read 56740 times)
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A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « on: 2015-03-29, 19:22:02 »

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Increase of electrical energy by means of absorption of Zero - Energy.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2469.0;attach=13892

OK i dug out a coil i had for some time, not ideal as Arie uses a 16.5cm diameter winding 33cm long, but though i would give it a try

I setup as per his diagram below with one exception i placed 2 off 10 Ohm resistors at the common point of the caps and used the centre point as my earth point with each end of each resistor feeding cap item 5 & 6, i used a fixed cap for item 5 which was 33pf and used my variable cap box for Item 6, my sig gen positive was connected to the coil near the Item 7 end and the other bifilar coil was open circuited that end also as per the diagram.

I used 4 scope probes all connected to the same earth point my 2 resistors were commoned at.
Yellow was across the sig gen resistor
Cyan was across the variable cap end of the other resistor.
Purple was connected to point A on the diagram or after the variable cap.
Blue was connected to the sig gen +

I then looked for the maximun increase in current across my 10 Ohm resistors to find the resonant frequency of the coil which turned out to be 439KHz.

First thing that stood out was i could not adjust for a phase difference of 180 Degrees as asked for in the patent, although i did find other interesting frequency's i could do this at much higher frequency's than the resonant frequency.
The other thing that can be noted is that the current in the open coil is greater than the current in my sig gen coil.

Any ideas how i should set this up so i can start looking for excess energy.

Peter
« Last Edit: 2015-03-29, 20:58:11 by Peterae »
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #1 on: 2015-03-29, 20:51:34 »

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Hi Matt
I will bear than in mind but first i want to try the patent out, and firstly try to work out the best way to do this.

I don't understand why i have a greater current in the open coil than i do in the driven coil.  :D
Looks like i should have scoped the LCR voltage across the open coil as well.

PS it looks like his output is across points A & B not tried scoping that yet, maybe i need a load resistance across these 2 points.
Any help setting to measure input ^ output power would be much appreciated.
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #2 on: 2015-03-29, 21:42:11 »

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Hi Peter,

very interesting, and lots of info on your scope   :D
(1.5V pp input (blue), 700V pp (purple) acros A to ground??)

I agree, you should load the output, perhaps like the input (50 ohm).
Also i don't think you should work at the resonance frequency of this coil (439KHz).
DeGeus talks about 8.5MHz, the higher the better.

Yes, measure across A and B  (remove the other probes) for the output.

439Khz is about 630m wavelength, don't think you have that much wire, so you are not having 1 wavelength.

His 33cm length at 16.5cm diameter with 1mm magnet wire equals 76m wire / coil, to have minimum of 2 wavelengths (fig. 1b) you should run at 38.5m wavelength = 7.8Mhz



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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #3 on: 2015-03-29, 21:56:28 »

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Hi Itsu
Thanks, makes good sense, i just re read the patent and he uses capacitors around 1pf  :o

Looking forward to more tests tomorrow, maybe i should build the device he states in the patent, a gain of 10% if it can be proven would be quiet an achievement.

EDIT yeah i see the 700V also, i need to check all is correct, but this should have been across the variable cap of the open coil, something strange going on here.

The scope is great, but in hindsight i should have bought a separate sig gen, the function of the dual built in sig gen is limited, does not sweep and is not easy to dial in a desired frequency.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #4 on: 2015-03-30, 13:45:59 »
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I don't quite understand this part:

Quote
I setup as per his diagram below with one exception i placed 2 off 10 Ohm resistors at the common point of the caps and used the centre point as my earth point with each end of each resistor feeding cap item 5 & 6

Could you make a drawing of the _exact_ circuit and probe connections you are using, please?

The setup described in Drawing 3b in the pdf document is probably the easiest setup to start experimenting with. But the capacitor values... half a picoFarad?? This is rather implausible for actual commercial off-the-shelf parts, it is even less than the well-known "gimmick" capacitors used by radio builders made from simply twisting a couple of insulated wires together for 4 or 5 twists. It's probably less than the interwinding capacitance of a nice bifilar cylinder coil of the dimensions given in the pdf.  

As far as getting to a 180 degree phase shift between the signal input to the driven coil, and the other coil's response, this will certainly require a higher frequency and an off-resonance condition. It's too bad that the signal source in the Rigol isn't easily swept. A good sweep function generator capable of 10 MHz and a 30 volt p-p output is a boon for any lab.... I saw one on Ebay last month (Interstate F74) for a hundred dollars! But I couldn't afford it myself, and the person I recommended it to didn't buy it, and now it's gone of course.

Here's an illustration of sweeping the primary (L1) of the "EMJ Partner coils" to find the 180 degree phase shift frequency in the other two coils (L2 and L3):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GOMqlamVHk
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #5 on: 2015-03-30, 15:30:15 »
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It's turtles all the way down
When this patent was first posted in the original DeGeus thread, http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2460.0

I took a good hard look at it and also thought the 1/2 pF capacitors to be odd, way below "gimmic" attainability. I thought it might be a translation error of some type and possibly the values needed to be much higher.

I did some testing back then using variable capacitors, but did not find anything of interest occurring. I'm glad a new thread specific to this patent has been started.

There are many oddities in some of the DeGeus patents, maybe we can sort this one out.

Regards, ION


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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #6 on: 2015-03-30, 17:50:10 »

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Thanks for the comments guys  O0

TK not yet sure i will stick with the 2 resistors, once i work out the best way to measure Pin & Pout i will draw a diagram up  O0

Looks like you can indeed buy off the shelf 0.5pf capacitors and also 0.5pf variable caps, i think really his point is to have as small as possible capacitance to obtain the highest possible resonant frequency.

Easier to make one really as TK said a bit of twisted wire, i will have a play, i am really tempted to build the coil he describes which means ordering some 1mm enamelled wire.
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #7 on: 2015-03-30, 18:21:13 »

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Or order some parallel bonded wire (multifilar):

http://www.mwswire.com/multifilar.html

I double checked the original Dutch patent, but its all that it says, see screenshot below.

"De condensator-capaciteiten zijn minimaal zo'n ½ picoFarad"   meaning:

"The capacitor-capacitances are at minimum some ½ picoFarad"  not much to interpret wrongly here.


Regards Itsu
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #8 on: 2015-03-30, 19:21:33 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2015-03-30, 18:21:13
Or order some parallel bonded wire (multifilar):

http://www.mwswire.com/multifilar.html

I double checked the original Dutch patent, but its all that it says, see screenshot below.

"De condensator-capaciteiten zijn minimaal zo'n ½ picoFarad"   meaning:

"The capacitor-capacitances are at minimum some ½ picoFarad"  not much to interpret wrongly here.


Regards Itsu

Well, he does say 1/2 picofarad minimum, which means you can go up from that, but not to load the self resonance too much as Peter said.

The parallel bonded wires will be stable and fairly precise when cut to the right length for tuning.


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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #9 on: 2015-03-30, 21:46:44 »

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Thanks Itsu, ION  O0

Did not get much advancement tonight, found it impossible to get 180 degree phase shift in the voltage across the 2 capacitors, but last night i could adjust the capacitance to get 180 degree out of phase current.

Just re read the patent again and it looks like it is indeed the current i need 180 degrees out of phase.
Quote
If there is a 180 °  phase difference ( equal capacities ) between the electron currents

So i will need to include 2 resistors, 1 for each cap to monitor current phase as i did yesterday.

I am looking at bonded bifilar wire but seem to be only able to get up to 0.45mm gauge, have sent an email to a UK company.

I have decided to build the correct coil.
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #10 on: 2015-03-31, 18:57:01 »

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Good news, i got a reply from the UK company regarding bonded bifilar wire, they do indeed have 1mm but there was a problem with the manufacture, every now and then it has a single twist, faulty spooling machine at the time of manufacture, he said he can do me 500g at a very good price  O0
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #11 on: 2015-03-31, 20:45:31 »

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Good news Peter,

how many meters will that be (500g), and does he ship to The Netherlands?

I got a quote from MWS Wire last year for 100ft dual AWG 16 (1.3mm dia) for $1.82/ft   =  $182   exclusive $60 shipping costs.

(100 FT MWS MULTIFILAR P/N B2162211(155) $1.82 FT)

Guess we need 80m = 240ft or so


Regards Itsu
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #12 on: 2015-04-01, 17:39:24 »
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Seems rather expensive. This might be a cheaper alternative:

http://www.powerwerx.com/wire-cable/red-black-zip-cord.html

Or just wind it yourself with two spools of magnet wire side-by-side. With patience, it shouldn't take all that long to wind a close-spaced bifilar cylinder with two strands of magnet wire.
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #13 on: 2015-04-01, 17:49:17 »

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Not expensive, dead cheap £12 + VAT + postage, I've ordered 2 off 500g spools, will get permission from him to put his phone number up, he has 2 off 10KG spools of the stuff, but it has a twist in the wire which was caused by bad manufacture, but can be straightened out apparently.
It's a UK company but looks like they do ship overseas.
They do enamelled iron wire as well.

AND also Kanthall tape  ^-^
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #14 on: 2015-04-02, 17:47:12 »

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OK had permission to publish details of the wire supplier just in case anyone wants it while it's cheap.

www.wires.co.uk

Contacts name is Dan on 01371 238013

The 1mm & 0.8mm Bonded bifilar wire is not on the website, but if you ring and ask for Dan he will give anyone a good price, not sure about the 0.8mm but the 1mm was £12 + VAT + P&P for a 500g spool
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #15 on: 2015-04-09, 20:24:46 »

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OK the wire arrived, very nice wire and quiet stiff to wind which is not surprising being dual 1mm bifilar.
Each strand has a different colour.

I wound this coil for the first test the only tube i had was 8cm diameter and i wound 16cm long, i used a grid dip meter and it dips at 20.7MHz, 72 Turns.

The wind is not perfect it was quiet hard to get the wire to lay side by side without gaps as can be seen in the picture, as i was winding i was turning every now and then to take out the slight twist in the manufacture error, i am tempted now to try winding it onto another former as this may make it easier to straighten and lay closer side by side, although for this coil Arie states it is important the bifilar wires are equally close together and as they are bonded they are indeed so maybe the occasional space between turns does not matter.

« Last Edit: 2015-04-09, 20:58:22 by Peterae »
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #16 on: 2015-04-13, 22:11:32 »

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Been playing with the above coil

I hooked an avramenko plug to it to monitor output voltages, just a hunch

Quote from the patent
Quote
( a) Theory.
The fast oscillation of an electro-magnetic field in a conductor for "free
electrons" produces longitudinal wave compaction / dilutions in the Aether,


The coil seems to resonate at quiet a low frequency of 1.12MHz and am unable to get the desired 180 degree shift until i go way above this main lower resonant point.

Here's a circuit of my setup

I am using a 30pf cap for C1 and a variable cap for C2
With the attached waveform all adjusted at series resonance with all phases in alignment.
Not run the numbers for the inout power yet but i was getting 1.738V across my avramenko output which has a 510R load resistor.

I really think the correct sized coil needs building now as in the patent.

Pout= V^2/R
Pout = 1.738^2/510 = 5.9mW

Interestingly the current in the Avramenko leg of the unconnected bifilar has a larger current flowing than the driven bifilar infact it's 195% but as i did not monitor the voltage Grrr it's meaningless  :P
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #17 on: 2015-04-14, 22:26:18 »

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To calculate Pin is it LCRvrms * (Rvrms/R) or LCvrms * (Rvrms/R) in the series resonant circuit, in the Smudge tests i used LCRvrms but the thing i don't understand is why i would include the voltage across the Resistor as this surely respresents current not a true representation of voltage???

Although when i go back to the Smudge device and change my Pin calculations and use LCvrms instead of LCRvrms then i start getting COP 24  :D

I went back tonight to measure the LCRvrms of the open side of the bifilar see Blue trace and it appears there is a much higher frequency sitting on the sine. ???

As can be seen in this shot yellow and cyan are in phase and represent the 2 currents in each bifilar but the voltages are slightly out of phase with respect to each other yet the driven bifilar voltage was also in phase with the currents.

There was no Avremenko plug connected for this shot.
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #18 on: 2015-04-15, 09:44:53 »

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Hi Peter,

so mixed results he.

I have my dual bonded wire ordered, so hopefully it will arrive soon.
Would it be possible to find the Characteristic impedance and the velocity factor of this dual wire with a fast pulse like in "time domain measurements"?
That is what i would like to do/know when having my wire / coil set up.
That way i would be able to choose a frequency (not at resonance) at which there are 2 full wavelengths on this stretch (i estimate mine will be about 80m long) of wire.
With a former diameter of 16cm (PVC) and a length of 1 meter, i want to wind this stretch of wire with an inbetween turn spacing of 1mm so it will be close to Aries setup which seems to use also 2 wavelength (at about 8.5MHz).

Regards Itsu

 
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #19 on: 2015-04-15, 20:44:41 »

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Hi Kees
That's good news with the wire  O0
Not sure about mixed results, more like am i doing the maths right, if i am then we have COP > 1 which should mean i am doing the maths wrong  :-[

So regarding my post 17

My Current Iin is R1vrms/10 Ohm so Iin = 0.184 / 10 = 18.4mA

Then my Pin is Iin / LCRvrms Pin = 18.4mA / 1.73 = 0.01064W or 10.64mW

COORECTION Pin is Iin * LCRvrms =31.83mW

Power in Avremenko Plug = Vrms^2/R or Pav = 1.738^2/510 = 5.9mW

Power in R1 = Vr1rms^2/R1 = 0.184^2/10 Pr1=3.39mW
Power in R2= Vr2rms^2/R2 = 0.360^2/10 Pr2=12.96mW

Wow what did i get wrong.

Pout= 5.9 + 3.39 + 12.96 = 22.25mW

COP = Pout/Pin = 2.097


EDIT
OK i think i was wrong to include Pr1 in my Pout total
So my new Pout= 5.9 + 12.06 = 17.96mW

COP=17.96 / 10.64 = 1.68
« Last Edit: 2015-04-15, 21:45:59 by Peterae »
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #20 on: 2015-04-15, 21:16:07 »

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OK, Peter,

what about:  
Quote
Then my Pin is Iin / LCRvrms Pin = 18.4mA / 1.73 = 0.01064W or 10.64mW

Should that not be:   "Then my Pin is Iin * LCRvrms Pin = 18.4mA * 1.73 = 0.0318W or 31.8mW"?

Anyway,  not sure that we can use this avremenko plug here, guess the two bifilar windings will influence each other presenting wrong data.
Also the output from the patent is inbetween the coils and capacitors,  not where you have attached the avremenko plug.

I notice that Arie is using the input of the FG as Vin, not its output.

Regards Itsu
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #21 on: 2015-04-15, 21:43:11 »

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Dam. well spotted.
Oh well i knew i did something wrong, been rushing too much, not enough time at the moment to concentrate fully.
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #22 on: 2015-04-16, 08:39:38 »

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Hi Peter,

a classical case of lack of free time and to much free energy stress   :P

Take it easy.


Regards Itsu
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #23 on: 2015-04-20, 16:38:16 »

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Received my spool of 1.5Kg dual bonded 1mm magnet wire.

The cat likes it already, but i need to straighten it out first before i can start winding it onto the 16cm diameter former (PVC).

One turn measures 51cm length, so lets see how many turns will be possible.

Regards Itsu
   
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Re: A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759 « Reply #24 on: 2015-04-20, 17:26:17 »

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Hi Itsu

Nice  O0, what was the charge for postage to Netherlands, the great thing with the tube winding is that we can re use the wire after testing for other projects.

Looking forward to you getting some time in on it, i got a larger cardboard tube now, but not 16cm diameter a little less and will try winding what i have left on that to see how long i can get it.

Cheers
Peter
   
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