A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil.

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Author Topic: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. (Read 79912 times)

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #100 on: 2015-02-22, 18:57:06 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Thanks Smudge Good plan, loads next then Still trying to track that peak in COP did some more earlier so it looks like i need to go a little lower in frequency yet somewhere between 297 & 631khz to zoom in on that peak a bit. 631khz i=70.1 lcv=1.18 load=6.03 Pin=83.78 Pout=71.30 COP=0.851 661khz i=70.9 lcv=1.21 load=6.11 Pin=95.59 Pout=73.20 COP=0.766 702khz i=70.9 lcv=1.22 load=6.15 Pin=86.49 Pout=74.16 COP=0.857

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #101 on: 2015-02-22, 19:10:56 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I just crunched some data from earlier in the day, this lot was done with a 100 Ohm load. The COP is all over the place and i think it's because of the lower amplitude readings introducing more readable errors load 100ohm 403khz i=63.2 lcv=261mv load=1.14 Pin=16.49 Pout=12.99 COP=0.787 480khz i=63 lcv=267 load=1.14 Pin=16.82 Pout=11.14 COP=0.662 543khz i=63.3 lcv=269 load=1.14 Pin=16.90 Pout=12.99 COP=0.7686 625khz i=62.8 lcv=270 load=1.13 Pin=16.96 Pout=12.77 COP=0.753 694khz i=62.9 lcv=276mv load=1.08 Pin=17.36 Pout=11.66 COP=0.672 781khz i=61.4 lcv=271mv load=1.1 Pin=16.64 Pout=12.77 COP=0.767 961khz i=63.7 lcv=293 load=1.15 Pin=18.66 Pout=13.23 COP=0.709 1.39mhz i=61.2 lcv=293 load=1.09 Pin=17.93 Pout=11.88 COP=0.663 1.79mhz i=61 lcv=311 load=1.07 Pin=18.97 Pout=11.45 COP=0.604 PS i did try your subtraction idea but it did not work well on my scope, current is 10's of mv and LC voltage is volts, subtract the 2 and you loose the current as my scope only does 2 digits

Smudge	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #102 on: 2015-02-23, 13:56:23 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Peter, It seems that lower resistance causes lower COP so I would be tempted to go back to your 510 ohm load and confirm the 0.922 COP at 510 KHz. That is assuming your written 510R means 510 ohms. Then stay at that frequency and try different loads to get higher COP. There is bound to be an optimum load where the COP is greatest. Smudge

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #103 on: 2015-02-23, 18:23:07 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Something interesting is happening, i just went back and started re doing tests with the 510 ohm load and every test and re test is COP 1 or slightly greater?? at one particular frequency which is the first i went to try. looking for errors but i am doing exactly what i did yesterday, will keep looking for the error

Grumage	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #104 on: 2015-02-23, 19:04:44 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Quote from: Peterae on 2015-02-23, 18:23:07 Something interesting is happening, i just went back and started re doing tests with the 510 ohm load and every test and re test is COP 1 or slightly greater?? at one particular frequency which is the first i went to try. looking for errors but i am doing exactly what i did yesterday, will keep looking for the error Dear Peterae. This might sound like a daft question, but, how different is the weather today ?? Please humour me. Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Chet K	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #105 on: 2015-02-23, 19:23:04 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Peter you can remove this post However I must ask a similar question regarding weather and perhaps conditioning the environment around your lab. as you may recall Tinman was getting weather events [rain] immediately after and in several cases During His Star in a jar experiment which were captured on Video. Seemed the longer he played with that little Fusion bottle[over time] the more it Manifested. I know you don't have a Tin roof like he does,and yes I know it rains MUCH more in the UK however it never hurts to Note these things.[temp humidity and pressure] sorry for the interruption,however those were very funny times... started calling him RainMan..

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #106 on: 2015-02-23, 19:23:59 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	LOL It was only 3 degrees C when i started work been down there over an hour and the COP>1 has gone, it just went, probably down to temperature change in the scope or something, this is an uncalibrated scope although i did run it through it's own calibration routine last night. I kept doing checks constantly and checked the cop each time altering the frequency slightly and then my Cops went down here's a list of the tests during this time, i have included the first set of COP=1 scope shot. 362kHz i=65.9 lcv=1.05 load=5.94 Pin=69.19 Pout=69.18 COP=0.999 390kHz i=64.7 lcv=1.05 load=5.97 Pin=67.93 Pout=69.88 COP=1.028 416khz i=63.3 lcv 1.07 load=5.97 Pin=67.73 Pout=69.88 COP=1.032 462khz i=66.8 lcv=1.08 load=5.87 Pin=72.14 Pout=67.56 COP=0.937 390khz i=68.1 lcv=1.05 load=5.80 Pin=71.51 Pout=65.96 COP=0.924 396khz i=68.3 lcv=1.05 load=5.84 Pin=71.72 Pout=66.87 COP=0.932 Also note the little squiggle on the bottom of the sine this is my signal generator getting old and maybe also a problem slightly. ------------------------ A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. pri-greeni-yellowv.jpg (1841.51 kB, 799x590 - viewed 590 times.) A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. loadv.jpg (1841.51 kB, 799x590 - viewed 540 times.)

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #107 on: 2015-02-23, 19:31:23 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Don't get over excited i have been using 510 as my resistance value for output power calcs but i think when i measured the other day it was about 514ohms and 1%, i was not meant to be any where near COP=1 so have not bothered with the fine stuff so far, i only wanted to start trying different loads and was stopped in my tracks

Grumage	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #108 on: 2015-02-23, 19:34:34 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Quote from: Matt Watts on 2015-02-23, 19:28:33 Awesome Peter! What do you think Smudge? Cold temperature reducing the resistance even more? Dear All. Or an increase in humidity !! Last year I had a single event where I had an Ionic wind that had my hair standing on end, the humidity changed and the effect was never seen again !! Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #109 on: 2015-02-23, 20:49:00 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Yep it's gone for now. Been trying different loads, the trouble is that a different load shifts the frequency so i have to adjust the series cap value to bring my primary I & V back in phase. I also decreased my sig gen drive amplitude to try to get rid of that little glitch at the bottom of the waveform. Results I've started measuring my load resistance for more accurate results. Load=1.096 KOhm load alters frequency same cap new freq = 271khz cap=28nf i=68.2 lcv=725mv load=6.68 Pin=49.45 Pout=40.71 COP=0.823 adjusting cap to bring back to 416khz still 1.096KOhm load 416khz cap=15nf i=61`lcv=1.13 load=8.19 Pin=68.93 Pout=61.20 COP=0.888 new load = 823.1Ohm 416khz Cap=18nf i=61.4 lcv=1.14 load=7.12 Pin=69.99 Pout=61.59 COP=0.879 new load = 680.1 Ohm 416khz Cap=21nf i=61.3 lcv=1.09 load=6.33v Pin=66.82 Pout=58.92 COP=0.882 new load = 467.5 Ohm 416khz Cap=27nf i=63.3 lcv=941mv Load=4.91 Pin=59.57 Pout=51.57 COP=0.866 I should have tried 510 again, it appears that might be a peak in COP.

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #110 on: 2015-02-23, 21:52:56 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	It looks like the reason for the high cop is the decreased current measurement, therefore i conclude a possibility that the NIR when cold is a lower value. it only takes a few mv drop as this is multiplied by the larger voltage. It looks like a precision resistance here would be good, but i do not have to to hand. EDIT I wonder if i can increase this resistance to 10 Ohm to get an increased current resolution without affecting things too much, if i can get my current measurement into the volts range i would then be able to use Smudges subtraction measurement system.

Smudge	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #111 on: 2015-02-24, 08:55:56 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	I think it more likely that your scope calibration is wandering, especially the channel operating at maximum gain (i.e. measuring the NIR voltage). If you used the same channel for all measurements then although the actual power values may be wrong the ratio forming the COP would not change. But then you would have to switch the gain and my experience of scopes tells me that action can change calibration so perhaps that wouldn't work. I see no reason why you should not use a higher value NIR except that it will affect the power you can suck out of your signal generator. Smudge

Smudge	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #112 on: 2015-02-24, 15:58:13 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	The fact that the input inductance changes with different load resistors could be significant. Normally one would not expect this and it seems you have got a 1.8 ratio inductance for a 2.34 ratio load resistor. If nothing else you may have discovered a method for creating variable inductance without the need for moving parts . Smudge

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #113 on: 2015-02-24, 17:52:44 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	OK will try a bigger NIR Quote If nothing else you may have discovered a method for creating variable inductance without the need for moving parts Sounds good LOL, but is there any way of understanding why? I wonder if the ratio is related to the primary vs secondary turns ratio.

Smudge	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #114 on: 2015-02-24, 19:06:50 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Peterae on 2015-02-24, 17:52:44 OK will try a bigger NIR Sounds good LOL, but is there any way of understanding why? I wonder if the ratio is related to the primary vs secondary turns ratio. No. The effect is related to a time or phase delay between input and output which is exactly what we are looking for to get OU effects. This delay alters the input current v voltage phase so a resistive load on the output appears at the input to have a reactive component, in this case inductive. I have shown elsewhere that a magnetic delay acts like a line having a reactive characteristic impedance (whereas classical delay lines have a resistive characteristic impedance) and if you terminate it in a capacitance it reflects as a negative resistance at the input. So it appears to me that you would benefit from adding capacitance either across or in series with your load. IOW instead of adjusting your input to get zero phase there by changing the series capacitance there, do it at the output instead. What I mean is play with different capacity values on the output while still looking at the input phase angle and adjusting it to zero. You might get some interesting results. Smudge

ion	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #115 on: 2015-02-24, 19:10:51 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote If nothing else you may have discovered a method for creating variable inductance without the need for moving parts. I could be wrong, but I think it is normal for the primary inductance to change with secondary load resistance. Consider the limit case of a ideal transformer with secondary either open or shorted. Primary inductance should go from maximum to zero. In fact the uncoupled inductance of a transformer can be measured by shorting the secondary and measuring the inductance of the primary. It will show the uncoupled inductance or "leakage" inductance. Coupled primary and secondary inductance disappears with the addition of the short, leaving only the uncoupled inductance. A magnetic transport delay between input and output negates the ideal transformer scenario and interesting effects may occur, which is what Smudge has said all along. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Orthofield	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #116 on: 2015-02-24, 19:21:17 »
Sr. Member Posts: 331	Hi ION, I agree with you there. Attached is a patent with bucking coils where the reactance is controlled by a resistor. Impedance transforms show that you can vary a pure R and get a pure L or C change in a network in some cases. This was also used in some transmission line FM modulators where the terminal R was varied to get a variable reactance, which could go from L or C, at the input. I'll post a scheme on my bench, where just varying the resistance can cause parametric oscillations... orthofield ------------------------ Cornwell1.pdf (474.47 kB - downloaded 225 times.)

ion	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #117 on: 2015-02-24, 19:46:16 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: orthofield on 2015-02-24, 19:21:17 Hi ION, I agree with you there. Attached is a patent with bucking coils where the reactance is controlled by a resistor. Impedance transforms show that you can vary a pure R and get a pure L or C change in a network in some cases. This was also used in some transmission line FM modulators where the terminal R was varied to get a variable reactance, which could go from L or C, at the input. I'll post a scheme on my bench, where just varying the resistance can cause parametric oscillations... orthofield Thanks Orthofield I'll post my comments on the patent on your bench so not to disrupt this thread Regards, ION --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #118 on: 2015-02-24, 21:22:37 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Did not get much done tonight. I fixed a cap value in series with my primary inductor and used a 27nF I first put a cap box across my 470 ohm load and could adjust the phase of my primary current and voltage as suspected, but when i went to scope across the parallel secondary R&C i had no waveform to measure. I then tried the cap box in series with the secondary load resistance, again it was possible to adjust the primary phases by adjusting the secondary cap box, nothing really seen, as i now have a series LC on my primary and also a series LC on my secondary i could not fully match the phases on the primary and secondary to do any meaningfull power measurements. Here's some notes made if i adjust the secondary series cap value to get voltage across this cap and voltage across secondary load resistance in phase then my voltage across the secondary series cap goes to almost zero, IE very small noisy looking just about recognisable sine on 10mv/div. at this point my voltage across secondary series cap (just recognisable) is in phase with my primary voltage across the NIR and nearly in phase with my primary lcv but not quiet. Nothing significant seen.

Smudge	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #119 on: 2015-02-25, 15:45:03 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	I was thinking of a small value capacitor across the load, not one that would shunt away all the power. When you are moving from one experimental set-up to another you are making changes that are too large, I think you need to move in smaller increments. Like you had a 467.5 ohm load and a 27nF series capacitor on the input to give a COP of 0.866 at 416KHz. What happens if you add a teeny weeny capacitor across the load and then adjust the 27nF to make good the phase angle there? Does the COP go up or down? If no change then try a slightly larger one on the load. Proceed in small steps. If things are going the wrong way, like COP going down, then reverse the action and do the opposite. The opposite of adding capacitance is adding inductance. You must feel your way step by step. Smudge

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #120 on: 2015-02-25, 21:07:30 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Thanks Smudge Tonight i really wanted to work out if any of my equipment is in calibration. I have 2 scopes a mains Owon 20MHz scope and the 200MHz Hantek DSO laptop powered i have been using up to now, i prefer the hantek as it is isolated by battery power. I have suspected my owon was out of calibration because it has a 5V Squarewave gen built in and when i hook that up i get 5.2V Pk-pk. So tonight i tried using first the Hantek and then the Owon I changed my NIR to a 10 Ohm carbon film and selected the 10 Ohm using my precision LCR meter for almost exactly 10 Ohm My load is measuring 516 Ohm and will use this for a while. I tried the subtraction method and it works pretty good now my current waveform is larger but i am still hesitant because of the 2 digit limitation. anyway i got 2 totally different results using the hantek & owon, i used just 1 probe to measure each variable Hantek 1 probe to measure each variable 500KHz 20nF I=636mv LCV=1.03 Load=5.75 Pin=65.51 Pout=64.07 COP=0.978 Using Owon 500KHz 20nF I=837.1mv LCV=1.202 Load=6.210 Pin=100.6mw Pout=74.7 COP=0.7423 So i then though how can i tell how in calibration each scope is, so i then set my signal generator to 50Hz and put a dvm on it to read DVM 7.33V and the 2 scopes read as follows Owon 7.414V RMS Hantek DSO 7.03V So it looks like the Owon is fairly close and it does 3 decimal places, so it looks like i now need to start the tests again using the owon. I will do all the frequency's again to look for a COP peak and then go from there. I need a new scope really « Last Edit: 2015-02-26, 18:01:47 by Peterae »

Smudge	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #121 on: 2015-02-26, 10:51:03 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Peter, Those calibration figures don't account for the different COP's (ignoring your 74.23 COP which is a math error ) so I think the ground connection to the mains scope might be doing something. You might track this down by using your Hantek to measure something then just connect the mains scope ground and see if anything changes. Smudge

ion	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #122 on: 2015-02-26, 15:12:15 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	From Peter Quote I need a new scope really Your need will be addressed by the community soon. Peter, you have been generous in funding this site for many years without any help that I know of, now it is time for the community to give back to you. P-Prof, and Chet.....if you agree, lets start beating the bushes. If 25% of the membership that use this site gives $10 to $20 it should easily cover a new scope for Peter. I can think of no more deserving recipient than Peter. In addition to funding and maintaining this site, his experiments are predominately in line with the OUR mission statement, i.e the quest for OU. There is no advertising on this site and Peter has stated that there never will be. Peter, do you have a Paypal account that we can make a direct deposit? Regards ION « Last Edit: 2015-02-26, 15:59:46 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

PhysicsProf	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #123 on: 2015-02-26, 17:32:51 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Great idea! count me in for $50 for a scope for Peter! --Steve PS - I'm going with visiting family today... back later

Peterae	Re: A closer look at a simulated Negative resistance coil. « Reply #124 on: 2015-02-26, 17:38:41 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Thanks for your offer ION & PhysicsProf, It makes it worth while running the site with such good members like yourselves making use of it for research, still no need for donations though, although i am thinking if i send someone in the US the money and P&P money maybe someone could post it on to me. Smudge Quote (ignoring your 74.23 COP which is a math error Roll Eyes ) Oops yes i got the decimal place in the wrong place 0.7423 will go back and edit that in the original post. Thanks I'm not convinced about the earth problem because i tried several methods of obtaining the measurements, one being to use the Sig Gen earth as the scope earth point, then measure LCV and then Across Sig gen input, using a calculator to subtract LCV from Sig Gen gave me my Current I. If i do this from now on then i don't think there can be any problem, just means i have more number crunching to do, i will try knocking up a spreadsheet to do the hard work.

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