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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Solid-State Generators > Partnered Output Coils
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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 384733 times)
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img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #400 on: 2015-02-06, 08:50:36 »
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Quote from: Jeg on 2015-02-06, 08:18:43

Dear Chris, all this ringing oscillations are due to the intrinsic capacitance and inductance of bucking coils themselves.
 

Hi Jeg - This was my point. The Bucking Coils show a much greater increase in these Spikes! My Point Exactly.

Now this is with a Square Wave, we can see this, with a Sine Wave this is a little harder to spot.

Is there any power in these Spikes/Ringing - yes of course

How can we increase these  Spikes/Ringing or increase the potentials in them.
   
img  Jeg
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #401 on: 2015-02-06, 09:34:22 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-06, 08:50:36
Hi Jeg - This was my point. The Bucking Coils show a much greater increase in these Spikes! My Point Exactly.

Now this is with a Square Wave, we can see this, with a Sine Wave this is a little harder to spot.

Is there any power in these Spikes/Ringing - yes of course

How can we increase these  Spikes/Ringing or increase the potentials in them.

Yes square is easier to use for this as it caries many harmonics and we can match easier a triggering signal to the right sets of frequencies.
To increase the result as far as i know is to tune your coils with a cap in series to the ringing oscillations. In my setup where i use air variable caps, at the moment of resonance they arc between their plates! (2KV break down voltage).

« Last Edit: 2015-02-06, 10:03:12 by Jeg »
   
img  Jeg
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #402 on: 2015-02-06, 10:08:50 »
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Chris the longer and thicker  the wires the most powerful the result. See Cook's patent. It is the most relative well explained patent.
   
img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #403 on: 2015-02-06, 13:18:45 »
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Hi Jeg!
Interesting comment you made! Could you tell me the number of turn and size (awg) of your output partenered coil?
You say you put an "air" variant cap; i dont know what it is???
Last question ;). Does the cap are in series betwin the partnered coil or betwin one coil and the load??
Thank you for sharing about your experiment. :)
   
img  poynt99
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #404 on: 2015-02-06, 14:20:00 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-06, 03:44:26
@Poynt99

I understand what you're saying. I just see it a different way.

At on time, on the Transistor, the Output Circuit is also part of the Input Circuit, Two junctions in a road that lead to the Zero Voltage Terminal.

This means, to me, that at on time, the Output Circuit is still part of the Input.

So the Zero Voltage Point is still valid as a reference point, at Transistor On.
Chris,

The power in a resistor is P=V2/R correct? The "V" in the equation is the voltage (potential difference) across the resistor. No other potential difference is valid. So if your "output" is in fact the single load resistor, you need only measure the potential difference across the resistor itself and the current through it (for all phases of the wave form).

I'm not sure if this is hitting home or not, but that is how the output power is measured and computed.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  NerzhDishual
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #405 on: 2015-02-06, 14:23:25 »
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 "Air" Cap :
   
img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #406 on: 2015-02-06, 14:40:23 »
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Quote from: NerzhDishual on 2015-02-06, 14:23:25

 "Air" Cap :



Thank you!
Did someone know where i could find one?
   
img  Jeg
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #407 on: 2015-02-06, 14:45:56 »
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Hi wistiti :)

My current setup which I play with consists of 234 Turns per coil (about 25m), 0.6mm thick. I put capacitor in series with coils and tune to the hf peaks. But I use feedback coil as in Meyer. 10T primary, 30T feedback coil. Air variable capacitors see here. http://www.ebay.com/bhp/air-variable-capacitor.
When tuned, voltage breaks down between my cap's plates.



   
img  Slider2732
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #408 on: 2015-02-06, 17:37:09 »
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@Wistiti - your best bet may be antique sales and Craigslist/Freecycle. Look for "1940's vintage floor standing radio needing TLC". In other words, a large Firestone or other tube driven radio set in bad shape, for cheap :)
 

Am delighted to report that TinselKoala has tried my simple 555 method of obtaining the 1.7kHz drive signal. He used the component values as posted above.
He has also followed IONs advice of changing to a Horiz Deflection TV transistor.
Such transistors are on every old CRT monitor, sat on large heatsinks that wrap around the flyback. 1500V/50W capable.
Caveat - It is likely that 1.7kHz is the correct signal injection for TK's windings, but may not apply for all builds.  

Here's his video, uploaded today:
[youtube]eLsYULBKvXA[/youtube]


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img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #409 on: 2015-02-06, 18:13:20 »
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Thank's guys!
I also found this handy poor man possibility:
http://m.instructables.com/explore/?query=Air+variable+capacitor
Ciao!
   
img  Slider2732
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #410 on: 2015-02-07, 02:25:03 »
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It wouldn't link anywhere for me..did you mean this one ?
http://www.instructables.com/id/air-variable-capacitor-from-scrap-aluminum-sheets/?ALLSTEPS

Good weekend project that one and, hey look, here comes the weekend lol


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img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #411 on: 2015-02-07, 02:57:43 »
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Quote from: Slider2732 on 2015-02-07, 02:25:03
It wouldn't link anywhere for me..did you mean this one ?
http://www.instructables.com/id/air-variable-capacitor-from-scrap-aluminum-sheets/?ALLSTEPS

Good weekend project that one and, hey look, here comes the weekend lol

Oups!
Yes i mean this one!  O0
   
img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #412 on: 2015-02-07, 04:34:43 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-05, 23:29:47

Please ask, Where is the Spike/Ringing coming from!

I feel this is coming from the "Bucking Coils"? No? This does not occur in different configurations is all.


Mabe it is from the cancelation of the magnetic field betwin the partnered coil...? A kind of a magnetic field collapsing. ???
   
img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #413 on: 2015-02-07, 14:44:52 »
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It's turtles all the way down
The large spike / ringing is from the leakage inductance of the partnered coils. I can show you the exact same spikes and ringing , up to 4kV in an identical circuit simulation or even one that does not use partnered coils but substitutes a single inductor in the diode clamping output network.

Is anyone interested in seeing the simulations?


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img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #414 on: 2015-02-07, 15:07:21 »

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Quote from: ION on 2015-02-07, 14:44:52
The large spike / ringing is from the leakage inductance of the partnered coils. I can show you the exact same spikes and ringing , up to 4kV in an identical circuit simulation or even one that does not use partnered coils but substitutes a single inductor in the diode clamping output network.

Is anyone interested in seeing the simulations?

Hi ION,     yes i would be interested to see that, if its not to much trouble.


Regards Itsu
   
img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #415 on: 2015-02-07, 17:52:23 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2015-02-07, 15:07:21
Hi ION,     yes i would be interested to see that, if its not to much trouble.
Regards Itsu

Here is a simple circuit with just the ten ohm resistor and a 100uH coil L4 which simulates the resistor inductance.

No "partnered coils" in this one and no coupling between L1 and L4. The HV spikes are almost 2.7kV. measured at the collector. Drive frequency is 1.73 kHz and drive voltage from simulated FG (V2) is 5 volts.

I also have EMJ's actual circuit with the "partnered coils" simulated if anyone is interested.


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img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #416 on: 2015-02-07, 19:12:15 »
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It's turtles all the way down
And here is the EMJ circuit, not quite as high voltage spike. The Zener in the emitter is to simulate the high C-E saturation voltage, since I don't have a model for the 2SD1555.

This is very rough, with proper models, a much better simulation can be had. I'm sure Poynt or partzman or others can do a much finer sim with the actual parts models, which I can't find at the moment.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #417 on: 2015-02-07, 20:25:30 »

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Thanks ION,

the signals look very similar.

I have ordered some 2SD1555's,  so next week or so i can measure the real thing.

Regards Itsu
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #418 on: 2015-02-07, 21:00:22 »
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Quote from: Vortex1 on 2015-02-07, 18:10:13
The large spike / ringing in the EMJ setup is from the leakage inductance of the " partnered coils". I can show you the same spikes , up to 4kV (with a few tweaks) in a simple circuit simulation or even one that does not use partnered coils but substitutes a single inductor in the diode clamping output network.

For simplicity, here is a simple circuit (without tweaks) with just the ten ohm resistor and a 100uH coil L4 which simulates the resistor inductance.

No "partnered coils" in this one and no coupling between L1 and L4. The HV spikes are almost 2.7kV. measured at the collector. Drive frequency is 1.73 kHz and drive voltage from simulated FG (V2) is 5 volts.

I also have EMJ's actual circuit with the "partnered coils" simulated if anyone is interested.




Well Done ION! Some 17 pages later and you agree with what I have said from Day One!



Now Why and How? I have explained all this in my PDF. All via method of Standard Induction already known to work in "Conventional Generators"! Under slightly different Conditions, where parameters of the Inductors have drastically changed due to this Configuration.


Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-05, 22:54:06

Please ask, Where does the Spike/Ringing come from!




Leakage Inductance of the "Partnered Coils"!!! Leakage Inductance is the Requirement!!!
   
img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #419 on: 2015-02-08, 00:04:35 »
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From EMJunkie

Quote
Now Why and How? I have explained all this in my PDF. All via method of Standard Induction already known to work in "Conventional Generators"! Under slightly different Conditions, where parameters of the Inductors have drastically changed due to this Configuration.


Quote
Leakage Inductance of the "Partnered Coils"!!! Leakage Inductance is the Requirement!!!

Thinking I must have missed it I searched your entire document for the word "leakage" and found nothing.

Put a revision number on the document, I'm sure I'll find it in rev2.

Quiz question with prize:  Can anyone guess why the spikes do not cause  large ringing in the negative direction (below zero volts line) in my sims?


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #420 on: 2015-02-08, 00:44:56 »
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Quote from: Vortex1 on 2015-02-08, 00:22:41
From EMJunkie

Quote
Quote
Thinking I must have missed it I searched your entire document for the word "leakage" and found nothing.

Put a revision number on the document, I'm sure I'll find it in the next revision.

Quiz question with prize:  Can anyone guess why the spikes do not cause  large ringing in the negative direction (below zero volts line) in my sims?
 
 BTW, if watch the video carefully you will see that Woopyjump's led lamp requires 3 Watts input for an equivalent Lumen output of an incandescent drawing 35W. It is not using 35 Watts of power, probably a lot less than 3 Watts. This info is stamped right on the bulb.

 Big gong on that one

ION/Vortex1

Leakage Inductance is referred to as Loose Coupling and its been in my PDF in all versions.

See:

Quote


Leakage inductance derives from the electrical property of an imperfectly-coupled transformer whereby each winding behaves as a self-inductance constant in series with the winding's respective ohmic resistance constant, these four winding constants also interacting with the transformer's mutual inductance constant. The winding self-inductance constant and associated leakage inductance is due to leakage flux not linking with all turns of each imperfectly-coupled winding.



"imperfectly-coupled winding" = Loose Coupling.
   
img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #421 on: 2015-02-08, 01:49:32 »
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From EMJ

Quote
Leakage Inductance is referred to as Loose Coupling and its been in my PDF in all versions.
See:

Quote
Quote
Leakage inductance derives from the electrical property of an imperfectly-coupled transformer whereby each winding behaves as a self-inductance constant in series with the winding's respective ohmic resistance constant, these four winding constants also interacting with the transformer's mutual inductance constant. The winding self-inductance constant and associated leakage inductance is due to leakage flux not linking with all turns of each imperfectly-coupled winding.

Quote
"imperfectly-coupled winding" = Loose Coupling.


You give no actual reference for that quote (bold type).

It is bad form and misleading to use a quote that was not not found in you rev2.3 bucking coils pdf. and post it as if it was yours.

So I'll give the reference: from a first hit of a Wikipedia search for "leakage inductance"


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #422 on: 2015-02-08, 04:36:58 »
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Quote from: ION on 2015-02-08, 01:49:32
So I'll give the reference: from a first hit of a Wikipedia search for "leakage inductance"

All's I know is it keeps my neon sign transformer from self destructing.   ;)
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #423 on: 2015-02-08, 04:43:53 »
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Quote from: ION on 2015-02-08, 01:49:32
From EMJ


You give no actual reference for that quote (bold type).

It is bad form and misleading to use a quote that was not not found in you rev2.3 bucking coils pdf. and post it as if it was yours.

So I'll give the reference: from a first hit of a Wikipedia search for "leakage inductance"

ION, I think you have misled yourself.

Well done in finding the quote and also adding the reference to it  ;)

I am not here to do everyone's homework, this should be stuff already known. You would have spotted this if you had read my PDF instead of doing key word searches and jumping to conclusions.

Please do not expect me to do all the thinking for those that wish to follow this.

P.S: if all work's out and everyone keeps their hats on, I may share some new information soon. I have been working on this for sometime and it just may be of interest to many out there.
   
img  Jeg
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #424 on: 2015-02-08, 09:13:52 »
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Quote from: ION on 2015-02-08, 00:04:35
 Can anyone guess why the spikes do not cause  large ringing in the negative direction (below zero volts line) in my sims?

Nice work ION! May i ask what is your sim program? I use NI multisim. What is your opinion on this?

About your question, isn't it that because you have a diode inside the measured brunch?

EMJunkie
I was looking your "not working" images in your pdf file. At the attached picture, if you reverse L1 or L4 then it will work isn't it? I ask because i made a new setup and i am thinking to wind two trigger coils upon each of the partnered coils. This is because if i wind just one trigger coil close or over of one partnered coil, then the balance between the partnered coils becomes off and leakage becomes greater. What is your opinion on this?

My new setup consists of two coils in a bucking configuration again but... each coil weights 6.9Kg (just the wire and the pvc tube). 300m of awg15 per coil, and core weights approximately 35kg!!! Core is a bunch of soft rusty iron rods forming a core of 1 meter with total diameter of 10cm. Yes it is a huge toy but it is according to Cook's specifications for a self oscillation system. I wanted to use a 2m core but it takes too much space in my living room, something that my wife didn't like. I can't understand why!!! ;D
« Last Edit: 2015-02-08, 09:45:55 by Jeg »
   
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