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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Solid-State Generators > Partnered Output Coils
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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 384822 times)
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img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #275 on: 2015-02-02, 07:26:38 »

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Quote from: Wistiti on 2015-02-02, 04:01:34
Apparently more out than in...  :o  The input on the primary was sine 353hz 5,41vac at 0.028amp. output on bulb load 7,76vdc at 0,141amp.
Here i just want to clarify that my measure instrument are an ac/dc clamp meter for the amp draw and an DMM for the voltage.... surely not the best instrument for accuracy.
Even if your instruments were 100% accurate, your average power measurement would not be.
This is because you are not paying attention to your waveform shapes and phase offsets.
1V * 1A = 1W of average power is always true only for DC.  For AC these numbers can easily evaluate to 0.001W ...a 1000x difference.
This is elementary.
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #276 on: 2015-02-02, 07:57:16 »
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Hi Wistiti,

Quote from: Wistiti on 2015-02-02, 04:01:34
Hi Chris and all!
Today i made some test with a split ferrite ring and a ferrite rod in the center (see image) It is a kind of the Jensen UDT shown in your pdf. The partenered coil are on each half of the ring 500t/30awg and the primary are on the center rod (First one, the only that work, have 150t/21awg. Not the one on the photo).
My frequency generator was an app i have on my phone. i use a small stereo to amplify the signal. I put a small 12v 2w bulb as the load (i bridge rectify the output) and it give me outstanding result! Apparently more out than in...  :o  The input on the primary was sine 353hz 5,41vac at 0.028amp. output on bulb load 7,76vdc at 0,141amp. Here i just want to clarify that my mesure instrument are an ac/dc clamp meter for the amp draw and an dmm for the voltage.... surely not the best instrument for accuracy. But the lite have a nice glow. anyhow it stunt me a bit an i try to replace the load for a 6v lead battery to see if i could charge it...  it was a big mistake! Yes it give a charge to the battery but after few second the amp draw on the primary goes up to near 2 amps!
The big problem is now i am not able to bring it back to the previous state.  :'(
I try many thing; change frequency, play with the gap, try MANY different primary winding nothing seems to be done to make it work again.
Chris did it ever happen to you?? If so what did you do to bring it back "to life"?
I suspect my small stereo... because now with all my "high" amp test, the output of my stereo seem to be blown...
Now im wathing to receive my 12v 180w audio amply order 2 weeks ago on eBay... be sure this time i will protect it with some fuse!!
Ciao!

Excellent result!!! Shame something went wrong.

I have not seen this, not yet anyway.

Best I can suggest is the normal trouble shooting, check components, Coils DC Resistance and so on...

Nice Work Wistiti! Be sure to document as you go! Makes it so much easier later on! Can reference your work and as you make changes document them also!
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #277 on: 2015-02-02, 09:18:27 »

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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-01, 22:07:39
@ALL

Short Answer: Yes after some playing around.

Long Answer: I have not seen so much trouble as Itsu is having! Normally it works after a few tries for me.

Itsu, did you see this video:

[youtube]iUy_9jDKDvo[/youtube]

I did this to help you out. There is definitely issues there on your setup. Did you see my reply on the Scope shots?

For CW/CCW Coils, the best Circuit is:


For CW/CW but One Coil Flipped over the best Circuit is:


Remember these are not the only configurations that work! This is another:


Kind Regards

   Chris Sykes - hyiq.org
   To Reach New Horizons!
-------------------------------


Hi Chris,

yes i have seen that video, but i know the concept, we have either 2 coils wound CW and CCW or we have 2 coils wound
the same way (both CW or both CCW).
Either configuration can be set 2 ways, either in adding mode or bucking mode.

I have tested both configurations in one setup (first CW / CCW bucking), then rewound 1 coil so that i had 2 coils both CW bucking.
In this latest setup i also used another core with same results.

I did see your reply on my scope shots, but "The Input is being Choked off!" is more a gut feeling term then a technical term,  right?
and its not thru in my opinion as you see the current being present loud and clear in the input (you even copy and paste it), so you
can hardly call that choked off.

Anyway, presently i have 2 crossover coils (both wound CW) on that new core connected via a DPDT switch (as presented by the genius Tinselkoala)
so i can flip over 1 of the 2 coils so the setup changes from bucking to adding mode.
The problem is that these crossover coils are too wide, so only 2 fit on the core.
I have wound the primary over one of those partner coils, but seeing an unbalans in output across both partner coils when in adding mode.
Need some sorting out here....

Regards Itsu
   
img  Smudge
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #278 on: 2015-02-02, 09:56:06 »

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Quote from: Wistiti on 2015-02-02, 04:01:34
Hi Chris and all!
Today i made some test with a split ferrite ring and a ferrite rod in the center (see image) It is a kind of the Jensen UDT shown in your pdf. The partenered coil are on each half of the ring 500t/30awg and the primary are on the center rod (First one, the only that work, have 150t/21awg. Not the one on the photo).


Hi Wistiti,

You have the right configuration there, but because the device relies on magnetic propagation delay between the partnered coils you need to wind coils that are shorter and occupying less of the core, see my quick sketch.  I think you will get better results.

Smudge
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #279 on: 2015-02-02, 10:43:03 »

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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-02, 01:06:47
@ALL,

Here is another variation of this Technology!!!

[youtube]bo42dHgrJ6g[/youtube]

Over-unity transformer.  Demonstration Scheme and principle of operation.  A. Mishin

Its everywhere! Like I said, its not new! Its Old Tech, just so many have not realised How and Why it works!


That's funny, that's how @ mcr just wired his coils in his flux gate gen.
   
img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #280 on: 2015-02-02, 11:56:41 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2015-02-02, 07:26:38
Even if your instruments were 100% accurate, your average power measurement would not be.
This is because you are not paying attention to your waveform shapes and phase offsets.
1V * 1A = 1W of average power is always true only for DC.  For AC these numbers can easily evaluate to 0.001W ...a 1000x difference.
This is elementary.
Thank verpies for your reply. Until i have acces to a scope i am affraid i cant not look for these major ac component.. :-\
Do you think i can read acuratly the output with my actual instrument if i rectify it? Plused dc or i have to smoot it with a cap before?
   
img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #281 on: 2015-02-02, 11:59:59 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-02, 07:57:16
Hi Wistiti,

Excellent result!!! Shame something went wrong.

I have not seen this, not yet anyway.

Best I can suggest is the normal trouble shooting, check components, Coils DC Resistance and so on...

Nice Work Wistiti! Be sure to document as you go! Makes it so much easier later on! Can reference your work and as you make changes document them also!
Thank you Chris. I will film it the next time.
   
img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #282 on: 2015-02-02, 12:04:19 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-02-02, 09:56:06
Hi Wistiti,

You have the right configuration there, but because the device relies on magnetic propagation delay between the partnered coils you need to wind coils that are shorter and occupying less of the core, see my quick sketch.  I think you will get better results.

Smudge
Ok thank smudge!  O0
I may try to rewind it these way next time.
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #283 on: 2015-02-02, 12:36:51 »

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Quote from: Wistiti on 2015-02-02, 11:56:41
Thank Verpies for your reply. Until i have access to a scope i am afraid i cant not look for these major ac component.. :-\
Do you think i can read accurately the output with my actual instrument if i rectify it? Pulsed dc or i have to smooth it with a cap before?
No, because the current will flow through the rectifying diode only when the voltage is higher than in a cap.  
This is different from a real resistive load where the current flows regardless of the voltage (>0)
This difference will create an error.

AC power measurement is very difficult for arbitrary HF waveforms.  The easiest method is the Wattbox - which Grumage will be happy to show you.
The next method up on the difficulty level is a $20 Watt-to-Volt converter.  (@Itsu: it worked for me but not for you because I used the B version of the multiplier. We should finish it for your 2GHz A version)

P.S.
If you want to buy a cheap good scope I recommend the Rigol DS1054Z because it costs only $399 and can be hacked up to 100MHz for free.
Watch this video and this video
   
img  Wistiti
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #284 on: 2015-02-02, 13:38:14 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2015-02-02, 12:36:51

P.S.
If you want to buy a cheap good scope I recommend the Rigol DS1054Z because it costs only $399 and can be hacked up to 100MHz for free.
Watch this video and this video

 :-\ i already order this one. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=111017139306
I hope it will do the job... It fit better to my budget right now...

Thank for your reply about rectifyng and cap smooth the output. What about rectify and go to 12v incandescent bulb without smoothing cap? Or i have to go directly on an ac bulb or non inductive resistor??
Sorry it may be so much question! ;)
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #285 on: 2015-02-02, 14:11:28 »

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Quote from: Wistiti on 2015-02-02, 13:38:14
What about rectify and go to 12V incandescent bulb without smoothing cap?
An incandescent bulb is already a bidirectional device so rectification is pointless for it and only adds diode nonlinearities.

Quote from: Wistiti on 2015-02-02, 13:38:14
Or I have to go directly to an AC bulb or non inductive resistor??
Yes and it's best to use a non-inductive bulb with a straight (non-coiled) filament like those cylindrical bulbs in car dome lights.
   
img  Aking.21
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #286 on: 2015-02-02, 14:20:48 »

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Buy me some coffee
A Mishin:  I couldn't get this to work. The output looks like a dead short to me. Unfortunately I can't pick up the nuances in the dialogue.
I don't think this is a proper version of the technology we are trying here.

I used pulsed DC using a Tesla switch and a Bedini trifilar coil with a multiple iron core.
Here is his diagram. I don't think he's using oppositely wound coils.
However, will continue to experiment.


---------------------------
Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KW charge on 1 plate of a  capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd  plate?
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #287 on: 2015-02-02, 19:52:21 »
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@Itsu

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-02-02, 09:18:27

Hi Chris,

yes i have seen that video, but i know the concept, we have either 2 coils wound CW and CCW or we have 2 coils wound
the same way (both CW or both CCW).
Either configuration can be set 2 ways, either in adding mode or bucking mode.

I have tested both configurations in one setup (first CW / CCW bucking), then rewound 1 coil so that i had 2 coils both CW bucking.
In this latest setup i also used another core with same results.

I did see your reply on my scope shots, but "The Input is being Choked off!" is more a gut feeling term then a technical term,  right?
and its not thru in my opinion as you see the current being present loud and clear in the input (you even copy and paste it), so you
can hardly call that choked off.

Anyway, presently i have 2 crossover coils (both wound CW) on that new core connected via a DPDT switch (as presented by the genius Tinselkoala)
so i can flip over 1 of the 2 coils so the setup changes from bucking to adding mode.
The problem is that these crossover coils are too wide, so only 2 fit on the core.
I have wound the primary over one of those partner coils, but seeing an unbalans in output across both partner coils when in adding mode.
Need some sorting out here....

Regards Itsu


Science uses the term "Intuitive" or "Unintuitive" many rimes. Other terms are used that follow the same basic meaning by many Physics Professors. I am sure "PhysicsProf" will agree with me that sometimes a gut feeling needs to be followed up!

I would like to point out the definition of Intuitive:

in-tu-i-tive   

adjective 

1. perceiving directly by intuition without rational thought, as a person or the mind.
2. perceived by, resulting from, or involving intuition: "intuitive knowledge."
3. having or possessing intuition: "an intuitive person."
4. capable of being perceived or known by intuition.

I often wonder where would the Human race be if some of us were not Intuitive?

Anyway, like I said, many people will not grasp this technology easily, some may not grasp it at all. That's why I have tried to help.

I hope we can get you up and running Itsu  ;)
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #288 on: 2015-02-02, 19:56:41 »
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@Verpies and Smudge,

Quote from: verpies on 2015-02-02, 07:26:38
Even if your instruments were 100% accurate, your average power measurement would not be.
This is because you are not paying attention to your waveform shapes and phase offsets.
1V * 1A = 1W of average power is always true only for DC.  For AC these numbers can easily evaluate to 0.001W ...a 1000x difference.
This is elementary.

For those doing measurements, and to try to eliminate some error factors, I build a small app to measure ones input.

Requirements:
1: Sine Wave input must be fairly symmetrical.
2: You need a scope that you can measure Phase Angle on the Input.

It uses the formula: V * I * COS(PHI)

Can you guys make suggestions on improvements to this?

Hope this helps those Measuring  :)


Download the Zip File, .NET 4.0 is required.
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #289 on: 2015-02-02, 20:06:35 »
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@AKing.21

Quote from: Aking.21 on 2015-02-02, 14:20:48
A Mishin:  I couldn't get this to work. The output looks like a dead short to me. Unfortunately I can't pick up the nuances in the dialogue.
I don't think this is a proper version of the technology we are trying here.

I used pulsed DC using a Tesla switch and a ###### trifilar coil with a multiple iron core.
Here is his diagram. I don't think he's using oppositely wound coils.
However, will continue to experiment.

A little secret, if you ever see the schematic like you have shown, and the Coils are on the Same Core, there is only one way that can work! Or as you correctly pointed out, it is a Dead Short!

For Coils to work like this, they MUST be wound, one Clock Wise, and one Counter Clock Wise!

Hope this helps!
   
img  kEhYo77
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #290 on: 2015-02-02, 20:11:12 »
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Hello World :)

Thanks for accepting me as a member to this forum.

There is this Russian guy that peaked my interest.
You should check his videos as there might be some useful stuff for this thread.
The clips are with English subtitles so no problem in understanding of what he says.

Start with this one:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGzR0NJ4vRE[/youtube]
   
img  T-1000
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #291 on: 2015-02-02, 20:55:43 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-02, 01:06:47
@ALL,

Here is another variation of this Technology!!!

[youtube]bo42dHgrJ6g[/youtube]

Over-unity transformer.  Demonstration Scheme and principle of operation.  A. Mishin

Its everywhere! Like I said, its not new! Its Old Tech, just so many have not realised How and Why it works!


I watched video and seen the need to correct the statement.
That transformer was designed for 300W originaly and A. Mishin took it apart then made central primary coil and 2 secondaries on the sides.  Then he did connected cores around outside perimeter of primary core. The two secondaries are connected in a way where theorically it is dead short. So when he connects transformer without load it is consuming 300W. When he connects 60W bulb the transformer starts using less due power redirection to the bulb instead of radiating it over external core.
Then he connects 600W heater to the output the transformer. The typical transformer would start overheating and eventually go in smoke. That does not happen with this customized transformer. Instead of smokes it starts consuming around 600W and the COP is being pushed very close to the unity. Then A. Mishin connects 900W part of heater. Again, the transformer does not go in flames and is consuming the power of load applied. The windings start to warm up a bit. Then he connects shortly both sets of heater which is 600W+900W for brief period of time. The transformer is still functioning but it is getting overloaded and the windings start to heat up. The typical transformer would be gone in flames long before that... :)
Then he describes about possibility of making transformer with COP >1 but instantly states he did not have chance to assemble one. And the drawing in the end involves core made from the tube which have separation to avoid shorting and have holes for perpendicular winding on 90 degrees. He explained on that part of video about vortices which are being made in the core and possibility of taking energy out of that (comment: the A field in magnetism). So you see that in drawing and visual presentation on yokes how he would wind these additional windings to existing ones with primary coil in the center and secondaries (which are shorted) from the sides...


P.S> Hopefully that is good enough transcript from the video for everyone to get idea what A. Mishin shown in video and explained.

Cheers!
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #292 on: 2015-02-02, 22:04:53 »
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@kEhYo77

Quote from: kEhYo77 on 2015-02-02, 20:11:12
Hello World :)

Thanks for accepting me as a member to this forum.

There is this Russian guy that peaked my interest.
You should check his videos as there might be some useful stuff for this thread.
The clips are with English subtitles so no problem in understanding of what he says.

Start with this one:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGzR0NJ4vRE[/youtube]

Welcome  ;)

Thanks for this video! I have seen before. Its a good one!

I find the key statement: "several windings with subtractive polarity"

Thanks for bring this to everyone's attention!
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #293 on: 2015-02-02, 22:07:00 »
Group: Guest

@T-1000,

Quote from: T-1000 on 2015-02-02, 20:55:43
I watched video and seen the need to correct the statement.
That transformer was designed for 300W originaly and A. Mishin took it apart then made central primary coil and 2 secondaries on the sides.  Then he did connected cores around outside perimeter of primary core. The two secondaries are connected in a way where theorically it is dead short. So when he connects transformer without load it is consuming 300W. When he connects 60W bulb the transformer starts using less due power redirection to the bulb instead of radiating it over external core.
Then he connects 600W heater to the output the transformer. The typical transformer would start overheating and eventually go in smoke. That does not happen with this customized transformer. Instead of smokes it starts consuming around 600W and the COP is being pushed very close to the unity. Then A. Mishin connects 900W part of heater. Again, the transformer does not go in flames and is consuming the power of load applied. The windings start to warm up a bit. Then he connects shortly both sets of heater which is 600W+900W for brief period of time. The transformer is still functioning but it is getting overloaded and the windings start to heat up. The typical transformer would be gone in flames long before that... :)
Then he describes about possibility of making transformer with COP >1 but instantly states he did not have chance to assemble one. And the drawing in the end involves core made from the tube which have separation to avoid shorting and have holes for perpendicular winding on 90 degrees. He explained on that part of video about vortices which are being made in the core and possibility of taking energy out of that (comment: the A field in magnetism). So you see that in drawing and visual presentation on yokes how he would wind these additional windings to existing ones with primary coil in the center and secondaries (which are shorted) from the sides...


P.S> Hopefully that is good enough transcript from the video for everyone to get idea what A. Mishin shown in video and explained.

Cheers!



Thank you for clarifying this! I was not aware of the Dead Short condition that was existing in this Transformer. Russes is a Language I need to learn.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #294 on: 2015-02-02, 23:05:46 »

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I managed to measure the opposing flux coming out from in between the 2 partner coils when in bucking mode using a Hall Effect sensor perpendicular to the core

With a DTDP switch i can switch one of the 2 coils so we switch between aiding mode and opposing (bucking) mode

This way i am sure that the partner coils are in the correct setup for further testing.

Now i have to find a way to install the primary coil for injecting the signal.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qsAHT1UeTI&feature=youtu.be


Regards Itsu
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #295 on: 2015-02-02, 23:20:52 »
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Itsu -- I really like what you're doing with the Hall probe  O0
Very clever.
(Can I ask -- where did you find that probe?  supplier?)
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #296 on: 2015-02-02, 23:41:46 »

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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-02, 19:56:41
It uses the formula: V * I * cos(PHI)
Can you guys make suggestions on improvements to this?
Formally that formula should be written as:
PAVG = VRMS * IRMS * cos(PHI)
...and indeed it works only for sinewaves.

Most voltmeters cannot even accurately measure VRMS above 2kHz.  Itsu made a video about that problem.

If you want to measure Watts for arbitrary waveforms, then you must use a 2ch scope with math mode, or W2V converter, or a Wattbox or a commercial Wattmeter.

Most people, however, are happy to just multiply average volts by average amps and delude themselves into thinking the the result is average Watts.  
I estimate that 80% of OU claims are due to this simple error.
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #297 on: 2015-02-02, 23:59:40 »

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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015-02-02, 23:20:52
Itsu -- I really like what you're doing with the Hall probe  O0
Very clever.
(Can I ask -- where did you find that probe?  supplier?)
I think it is manufactured by Allegro and all major suppliers have it, like Farnell, Mouser, DigiKey, etc...

If you think about buying one then buy two and a tiny differential output opamp IC to go with it.  This way you can make a very sensitive probe that is immune to interference from stray magnetic fields.
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #298 on: 2015-02-03, 00:31:14 »
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@Verpies

Quote from: verpies on 2015-02-02, 23:41:46
Formally that formula should be written as:
PAVG = VRMS * IRMS * cos(PHI)
...and indeed it works only for sinewaves.

Most voltmeters cannot even accurately measure VRMS above 2kHz.  Itsu made a video about that problem.

If you want to measure Watts for arbitrary waveforms, then you must use a 2ch scope with math mode, or W2V converter, or a Wattbox or a commercial Wattmeter.

Most people, however, are happy to just multiply average volts by average amps and delude themselves into thinking the the result is average Watts.  
I estimate that 80% of OU claims are due to this simple error.



Thanks, yes I thought the formula would hold.

I agree, High Frequency's are no good on Multimeters! I have seen many times errors measuring Power on devices that use higher Frequency's! This is crazy, even expensive Meters have issues!

Thanks for the Info!
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #299 on: 2015-02-03, 00:36:58 »
Group: Guest
@Itsu,

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-02-02, 23:05:46
I managed to measure the opposing flux coming out from in between the 2 partner coils when in bucking mode using a Hall Effect sensor perpendicular to the core

With a DTDP switch i can switch one of the 2 coils so we switch between aiding mode and opposing (bucking) mode

This way i am sure that the partner coils are in the correct setup for further testing.

Now i have to find a way to install the primary coil for injecting the signal.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qsAHT1UeTI&feature=youtu.be


Regards Itsu



Nice Work!

Some things to keep an eye on:

1: Your Coils are still not right from what I can see - For CW/CW Coils, One of the POC Coils normally needs to be Flipped over relative to the first!
2: You are right in saying put a Primary on top of one of the Coils. Once the device is operation Charge will balance the device.

Your Diagrams look good! Please post and share if you can!

Please try and experiment on your current arrangement first before changing however.
   
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