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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 384714 times)
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img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #150 on: 2015-01-30, 16:10:39 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-30, 15:21:53
If it were possible to have coil resistance lower than the induced negative value we would have self-oscillation. :).
Why don't you calculate the correct coil parameters and guide Itsu through their build, positioning and  measurements.
He has magnet wire, ferrite cores, a 0-100MHz signal generator that can be easily hacked up to 200Mhz, RF amplifier, 2 scopes, power supplies, etc... and skills.

A tunnel diode also has negative resistance but it takes more energy to create it.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 18:57:30 by verpies »
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #151 on: 2015-01-30, 16:33:01 »

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Quote from: TinMan on 2015-01-30, 15:48:13
Quote smudge-What I did could have been done by anyone over the last 100 years or so but no one took the simple step of applying a magnetic delay to the coupling factor in the classical formula for coupled coils.

Maybe a delay line like the below?.

Only if the coils are wound on a common core.  If the coils are individual you simply have a classical electrical delay line.  If the top row are along the top of a rectangular closed core, and the bottom row along the bottom of the core, then you have a delayed transformer.  But you need to feed into the magnetic domain with a primary coil and a secondary coil as shown here.  I have done this and it does delay the magnetic propagation along the core, but each coil has its own loss and although getting significant delay you also get unwanted loss.  Doing this on the short magnetic path between bucking coils is problematical because there isn't room for many coils.  It would be interesting to put a single coil on that gap and shunt it with a capacitor, perhaps I'll look into the magnetic domain solution for that.

Smudge
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #152 on: 2015-01-30, 16:50:31 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-30, 16:00:49
I believe that EMJ has lots of evidence that there is something special about bucking coils and he is absolutely correct there.  I also believe that he has evidence that such coils yield anomalous energy.  I suspect that any measurements he may have showing absolute OU (more out than in) may not have been done correctly, but that doesn't concern me.  His years of experimenting has opened up a legitimate avenue of exploration that must be followed since it offers a route to OU.

My argument is this.  For years it has been accepted fact that magnetic propagation delay, velocity, viscosity, call it what you will, is a cause of loss.  This loss is assumed to go to heat the core.  However as far as I know there has never been any calorific measurements to validate that assumption.  Certainly you can see how that velocity changes the BH loop to create anticlockwise behaviour which represents loss.  And you can think of domain wall movement or domain rotation being slowed by friction, but that is just a concept.  There is no real evidence for where the lost energy goes, and it is quite possible that it dissipates into the virtual particles of space, it disappears into the quantum world.

What is now apparent is the fact that in certain magnetic arrangements the presence of magnetic delay creates energy, not loses energy.  Bucking coils is but one arrangement.  A capacitively loaded transformer is another.  And there could be more.  So it is possible that this energy is transduced in from the virtual particles of space, from the quantum world.  I think that possibility should be actively explored, don't you?  I am grateful to EMJ for revealing this possibility.

Smudge

I've done a lot of thinking about magnetic propagation delay also - and agree that its worth exploring. 
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #153 on: 2015-01-30, 16:57:16 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-30, 16:10:39
Why don't you calculate the correct coil parameters and guide Itsu through their build, positioning and  measurements.
He has magnet wire, ferrite cores, a 0-100MHz signal generator that can be easily hacked up tp 200Mhz, RF amplifier, 2 scopes, power supplies, etc... and skills.

A tunnel diode also has negative resistance but it takes more energy to create it.

The EMJ arrangement is not for a closed magnetic circuit, but for coils on a ferrite rod as shown here.  If Itsu could tell me the sizes and characteristics of any ferrite rods he can lay his hand on I'll gladly do some calculations, simulations etc. to see whether it is worth going down this avenue.  My gut feeling is we could need some exotic magnetic material like the Metglas that has 106 permeability.

Smudge
   
img  Propellanttech
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #154 on: 2015-01-30, 17:26:35 »
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EMJ and All

I was thinking last night as I lie in bed......what I thought were bucking coils, are not bucking coils.  Please follow me on this.

I thought a bucking coil is wound opposite from all the instances I've seen (schematics). This means the turn direction is different, and the linear direction is different.

EMJ's pictures of bucking coils are wound "mirrored". The turn direction is the same, but the linear direction is different.

This confuses me for a few reasons. First, I can't test myself at the moment, so I can't "see" what is happening. Second, the right hand rule is somewhat skewed when a coil is wound "mirrored" at least in my mind.

Is everyone winding their coils for this test in the "mirrored" fashion?

Itsu's reply made me think, this is not CW or CCW winding........these are mirrored windings and they are different, they are all one direction.

Itsu,

Just changing the end the SG is connected to, should change the direction without having to physically flip the coil. It was a suggestion.......not that it will make any difference.

James
« Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 17:57:56 by Propellanttech »
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #155 on: 2015-01-30, 17:35:38 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-30, 16:57:16
The EMJ arrangement is not for a closed magnetic circuit, but for coils on a ferrite rod as shown here.  
I was referring to the experimental verification of your negative resistance analysis.  I don't remember you writing that it is limited to non-closed magnetic paths.

Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-30, 16:57:16
If Itsu could tell me the sizes and characteristics of any ferrite rods he can lay his hand on I'll gladly do some calculations, simulations etc. to see whether it is worth going down this avenue.  My gut feeling is we could need some exotic magnetic material like the Metglas that has 106 permeability.
@Itsu
If you could measure the inductance of some of your cores with your inductance meter and measure their sizes (dimensions in mm) then this should give Smudge all he needs (except for the saturation levels).  Don't forget to let him know with how many turns you had measured the inductance.

...and one question from me: What is the diameter of your largest pot core?
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #156 on: 2015-01-30, 17:51:28 »

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Quote from: Propellanttech on 2015-01-30, 17:26:35
This means the turn direction is different, and the linear direction is different.
This just does not matter with even number of forward and back advanced CW layers, because the longitudinal currents cancel.
With odd number of layers the  longitudinal current can be significant, especially in toroids where circumferential advancement winding direction is not altered every other layer.
   
img  Propellanttech
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #157 on: 2015-01-30, 17:59:31 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-30, 17:51:28
This just does not matter with even number of forward and back advanced CW layers, because the longitudinal currents cancel.
With odd number of layers the  longitudinal current can be significant, especially in a toroid where circumferential advancement winding direction is not altered every other layer.


Verpies,

Would you define "longitudinal currents" to insure I understand your reasoning?

Also, I do think it makes a difference. The closer the layer, the more induced magnetic field the winding will give or receive. The first layer is going to have a greater effect than the second and so forth. But all the layers going in the same direction would be optimum......but not on topic at this moment.

James
« Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 18:49:04 by Propellanttech »
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #158 on: 2015-01-30, 19:02:08 »
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Hi Hyiq,

Sorry,  I have not yet read the entire thread.

A couple of years ago, I had successfully reproduced this JL Naudin experiment:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/bifvsbuk.htm

In this case it was "Partnered Input Coils".
The results were interesting and informative indeed.
But, IMO, this experiment did lead to nothing 'tangible'.

So, your idea of using the partnered ('bucking') coils as output is, IMO, very clever and creative. O0

I would have one idea. As you know, a resonant parallel circuit consumes practically nothing.
This simulation shows this:




The source is giving about 4mA alternative but in the capacitor it flows more than 300mA.
Of course, according to conventional thinking you can do nothing with this.
As soon as you try to "load" the circuit with conventional stuff (a 'normal' trafo for ex),
the effect vanish and Mr Lenz is right. :'(

But, according to your previous experiments, I will bet that it will not be the case with your
"special" trafo!

So my proposed experiment:
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #159 on: 2015-01-30, 19:05:46 »

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Quote from: Propellanttech on 2015-01-30, 17:59:31
Would you define "longitudinal currents" to insure I understand your reasoning?
It is the component of current flowing parallel to solenoid's axis or parallel to toroid's major circumference.

Quote from: JL Naudin link=http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm
...in a common toroidal coil, each layer is equal to a "one turn coil" whose axis is parallel to the axis of the toroid. So, one layer of toroidal coil is equal to a flat coil of one turn and thus it can tap or produce EMF outside the torus.
 
There is even a US5565835 patent dealing with this problem.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 20:09:21 by verpies »
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #160 on: 2015-01-30, 19:12:43 »
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Smudge
Quote
 My gut feeling is we could need some exotic magnetic material like the Metglas that has 106 permeability.
----------------------------------------------------------

perhaps we Place a budget on this so as to get the best possible material To itsu for testing?

Or someone has another suggestion?
thx
Chet
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #161 on: 2015-01-30, 19:20:00 »
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I bet there is missing something  ??? Something fundamental about Lenz law  ^-^
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #162 on: 2015-01-30, 19:28:15 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-30, 19:05:46
It is the component of current flowing parallel to solenoid's axis or parallel to toroid's major circumference.


Ok, so we are talking electrical current....and nothing more..

I agree with that.

James
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #163 on: 2015-01-30, 20:14:14 »

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Quote from: Propellanttech on 2015-01-30, 19:28:15
Ok, so we are talking electrical current....and nothing more..
No only, this circumferential current also generates magnetic flux which is parallel to the ordinary toroidal flux....and it contributes to flux leakage and to decreased coupling coefficient (k) between windings.
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #164 on: 2015-01-30, 20:14:52 »

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Quote from: Chet K on 2015-01-30, 19:12:43
Smudge
Quote
 My gut feeling is we could need some exotic magnetic material like the Metglas that has 106 permeability.
----------------------------------------------------------

perhaps we Place a budget on this so as to get the best possible material To itsu for testing?

Or someone has another suggestion?
thx
Chet

Well I have been looking back at measurements taken on a magnetic delay transformer.  Unfortunately these are not my measurements and I do not have the right to publish details, a private company paid for the work and owns the proprietary rights.  But I can tell you that the velocity of magnetic propagation was 3.88x106m/s.  This was a large 3F4 ferrrite ring core (see picture) so if we had one of those we have a starting point for calculations.  I can also admit that this particular core exhibited anomalous results at 14MHz which is within Itsu's measurement capability.  And I have a math model for the 3F4 permeability values real and imaginary so creating spreadsheet simulations is a doddle.

Smudge
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #165 on: 2015-01-30, 20:26:56 »
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Smudge quote
Well I have been looking back at measurements taken on a magnetic delay transformer.  Unfortunately these are not my measurements and I do not have the right to publish details, a private company paid for the work and owns the proprietary rights.  But I can tell you that the velocity of magnetic propagation was 3.88x106m/s.  This was a large 3F4 ferrrite ring core (see picture) so if we had one of those we have a starting point for calculations.  I can also admit that this particular core exhibited anomalous results at 14MHz which is within Itsu's measurement capability.  And I have a math model for the 3F4 permeability values real and imaginary so creating spreadsheet simulations is a doddle.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smudge

I am quite certain we can acquire what we need to move forward
we have members here that will assist financially.and others that are amazing at getting what we need from existing discarded items [Old High end HF test equip might suffice here ?


Respectfully

Chet



 
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #166 on: 2015-01-30, 20:32:08 »

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For anyone interested in (a) math modelling of core characteristics or (b) magnetic domain modelling of transformers here is a reduced report with all the proprietary information removed.  Enjoy O0

Smudge
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #167 on: 2015-01-30, 21:05:15 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2015-01-30, 17:35:38
I was referring to the experimental verification of your negative resistance analysis.  I don't remember you writing that it is limited to non-closed magnetic paths.
@Itsu
If you could measure the inductance of some of your cores with your inductance meter and measure their sizes (dimensions in mm) then this should give Smudge all he needs (except for the saturation levels).  Don't forget to let him know with how many turns you had measured the inductance.

...and one question from me: What is the diameter of your largest pot core?

See the below picture for the ferrite rods i presently have, they are:

2x   ferrite rod  20x200mm        8t = 18uH @10Khz
4x   ferrite rod  10/8.5x200mm  8t = 9uH @ 10Khz     (rod is not round,  has 2 flat sides)
6x   ferrite rod   8/7x50mm       8t = 4.7uH @10Khz  (   "        "               "          "      )

2x Pot cores  47mm diameter

I still have the metglass tape pieces from Smudge, 2x  40mm by 8m.

Regards Itsu
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #168 on: 2015-01-30, 21:52:50 »
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Hi all,
Ignoring any losses from a 'standard' viewpoint, has anyone placed a ring of copper (single turn short circuit) centrally  on the magnetic medium and looked for a delay, aka shaded pole characteristics? It works advantageously in motors, perhaps the delay measurement can be utilised in a phase calculation for a specific frequency to work from.
Just a thought...
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #169 on: 2015-01-30, 21:53:08 »
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@ALL,


Quote from: Jeg on 2015-01-30, 09:57:55

As i told you in a previous post i had made an arrangement with two cw ccw bucking coils and a diode in between them and a feedback coil like in Meyer and Jensen setup. This setup was able to charge in an instant a capacitor at about 1.4KV. But, Inter-turn arcing made me rewind my secondaries with some tape insulation between layers. In my new bucking coils i used 0.6mm magnet wire at 234 turns while in my previous setup i had used a 0.8mm wire at 200T.

What is your guess guys about my new output voltage from secondaries? Has it be at a higher or at lower voltage levels? What it has to be expected? Long story short, what i faced was a lower voltage at a level of 200V!!! Seems to me that thicker wire produces higher voltage even with less turns! What is your explanation on this?

In a quick try to explain this preliminary result, seems to me that the less ohmic resistance at the bucking coils setup, allows more current to flow inside them, building this way quicker an opposed magnetic field to the primary source, and producing this way higher E-fields after the summation of which give a higher voltage at the output. Keep in mind that my primary source are short in time pulses from a mosfet.

Itsu, if you like try also to wind your secondaries with thicker wire to see if you have a different result. Also try one gap in your C cores and not two!! It seems that works better if Magnetic flux is delayed from one side only and not symmetrical in relation with your output bucking coils.  



Jeg is doing some real good Experiments here! Well Done Jeg!

All, I am going to ask you:

What do you think the Partnered Output (Bucking) Coils DO? Where Could Excess Current be? How is the Voltage related?
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:20:18 by EMJunkie »
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #170 on: 2015-01-30, 22:29:13 »
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@Tinman,

Quote from: TinMan on 2015-01-30, 14:00:13
Quote post 23-->Do you have any coils presently built up that exhibit COP >1?
Answer EMJ post 26-->Yes, I am not yet prepared to show my current results as it will confuse and shadow the existing configuration and no one will learn the basics first.

 ???
Are we any closer to seeing this COP> EMJ?
You believe those here do not know the basics of inductor operations?
Do you know how many times we have been lead up the garden path with this cry-->OU
Do you know how much combined time(and cash) has been wasted by members here,only to have the claimant disappear when it came time to show the good's?.

One would think if you had an OU device,you would be happy to share and show it-->just so as you could put the guru's in there place.


I believe I'm looking at another such thread ^-^

I am sorry you feel this way. In my time, I have seen many hundreds of Videos, many people come forward with good data, to show what?

A Device that runs itself and lights a load...

[youtube]HmYfcgvf6Jc[/youtube]

The first thing that the Critics say is: "Hoax", then "Measurement Error", then after that if they still need to, they claim its already known principals and its borrowing energy from the Power Lines or Local Radio Station.... I am not going down this path! I have seen Akula so many times get slammed against the brick wall of stupidity! No one listens and so many claim they know better!

Now, can you build this device and make it work? Can anyone except the builder?

Do you know the underlying principals?

Do you have someone helping you build such devices? Oh wait, you do!

Why would you think and expect to finish at the starting line when you're not prepared to Start at the Start? I don't understand this!

Yes, I agree, many times people have been led down what may be seen as the Garden Path, but because of frustration, the view that one is not getting anywhere, through being hounded to the point of out right insanity, and also simply because of time issues, as I have seen, I have a family and a Business I am trying to look after and run at the same time as trying to post information, create graphics, documents and all the other stuff I have done.... Videos... I believe many good people, with legitimate devices, have shared information and then given up in frustration!

So maybe an open mind, if you learn a few things from what I am sharing, is it not worth a few dollars? I am not asking you to spend ridiculous amounts of money! Most all here will already have the materials! For example, Itsu, how much have you spent? $10?

The Information I have shared with everyone works! Period! If its not working, then someone has either got it wrong, or their understanding of what the goal is has not been realised by that individual yet. Thus, why I am trying to help!

IMPORTANT: I try not to use the Term "Bucking Coils" because technically this is not the only configuration that works!

Although, this is what the coils do actually do in all modes of configuration!

Now, its my daughters Birthday today, I am going to spend some time with her and the rest of the family. I am sorry to others that have posted and that I have not responded to yet, I will get to them tomorrow.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:20:47 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Propellanttech
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #171 on: 2015-01-30, 22:42:55 »
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Chris,

Unfortunately there are people that try to perpetuate hoaxes. I can show you hundreds on YouTube. There is one guy that does nothing but perpetuate hoaxes on his YouTube channel. Now in the defense of the guy, he never claims anything.......just makes videos (veproject1).

That is one of the problems, people who are dishonest. They make some people think everyone is dishonest.

I didn't say there are no valid people on YouTube, but how do you weed out hoaxes without trying every single experiment?  That would take more than a lifetime.

James
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #172 on: 2015-01-30, 22:47:31 »
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The first thing a sane person says when looking at Akula's video's is. Why is it not possible he is faking it, looks like plenty of room for two "D" cell batteries there, the core piece he uses as a bridge could complete the circuit to charge the capacitors from the pair of hidden batteries. Simple.

We have no reason I can see to suspect anything but a faking. If your not a critic then your open for duping.

When we watch a magician make a bird appear do we immediately believe he created a bird or do we err towards reality and just accept it is a trick without needing to try to "create a bird" ourselves?

..
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #173 on: 2015-01-30, 22:58:20 »
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Hi Itsu, Sorry, I missed yours and replied to Tinman's - Yours now  :)

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-30, 09:34:12

But still its only some hundreds of microWatts
Point is (my question), it normally should be 0 in bucking mode, so this looks to me as normal behaviour (without having your special effect),  right?


Short Answer: No

Long Answer: You must Aim for Maximum Voltage and Current out of your Coils. Through a Resistive Load, the Voltage and Current will be in phase!

IMPORTANT: Floyd Sweet Said:

“If the directions of the two signals are such that opposite H-fields cancel and E-fields add, an apparently steady E-Field will be created. The energy density of the fields remain as calculated above, but the value of the E-field will double from E/2 to E”

I will soon share another way to view this statement that will help in the journey. But for now, we must see basics! Get this working, see the Magnetic Fields interacting with each other! Get the Magnetic Fields up as High as they can be for your device.

IMPORTANT: I know all here are super Smart and already know much or even more than what I have said about Coils/Inductors! I am trying to approach this from a point of view that not all will know this stuff. I too am still learning stuff like I said.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:21:08 by EMJunkie »
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #174 on: 2015-01-30, 22:59:02 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-30, 20:32:08
For anyone interested in (a) math modelling of core characteristics or (b) magnetic domain modelling of transformers here is a reduced report with all the proprietary information removed. 
If you model it as a magnetic transmission line with finite propagation velocity then what about impedance discontinuities and resulting reflections leading to standing waves?  Standing magnetic waves.
   
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