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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Solid-State Generators > Partnered Output Coils
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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 384690 times)
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img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #125 on: 2015-01-29, 21:42:16 »
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@Chet,

Quote from: Chet K on 2015-01-29, 09:37:04
while Tinsel is a member here,
he has some nice  tips as well as some thoughts [and a build in progress]
here
http://overunity.com/15395/partnered-output-coils-free-energy/msg435613/#new

thx for looking
Chet




Thanks for the heads up! TK and I have not seen eye to eye many times. I know he is a smart fella, but maybe his thinking is a little too conventional?
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:17:04 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #126 on: 2015-01-29, 21:44:51 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-29, 13:36:30
:o   sorry Chris, that first sentence, i have a hard time trying to understand what your are saying there.

I said that in this parallel setup i do not hear or feel any vibrations/sounds like with the normal serial setup,  to me that is not good,  right?


Also the last part  / request please explain what you want me to do.
Add an additional 20/30 turns to the farmost partner coil (put it in series)? Or wind another coil of 20/30 turns around that farmost coil?
Where to put that resistor?

Regards Itsu  

@Itsu,

Please ignore my posts, I had a bad day yesterday, no sleep, brain was not in gear....

Please let me know when your coils come in. Ignore request. Sorry  :)
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:17:30 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #127 on: 2015-01-29, 22:04:25 »
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@Smudge,

Quote from: Smudge on 2015-01-29, 15:13:31
I have produced some charts for two single turn loops that are coupled by lying on a common axis showing the mutual inductance varying with separation distance, and their combined series inductance in bucking mode.  Coils on ferrite rods should show similar variations with separation distance.  I also show the induced negative resistance when there is a magnetic propagation delay across the separation gap.  This indicates an optimum separation (for maximum negative resistance) of about half the diameter of the coils.  That optimum position stays the same regardless of the frequency or the delay, only the magnitude is determined by those.  Remember this is presented as a guide only, the actual position has to be found by experiment.

Smudge

Thank You! This is beautiful!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:17:47 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Aking.21
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #128 on: 2015-01-29, 22:07:49 »

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Buy me some coffee
Quote from: Matt Watts on 2015-01-29, 07:38:07
Do you mean the demo of Bill Alek's Split Flux Transformer or just his concept of Cooper Paired electrons?

I mean the gyro part. But if you read up on Newman - he's right - and deserves a Nobel prize.


---------------------------
Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KW charge on 1 plate of a  capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd  plate?
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #129 on: 2015-01-29, 22:43:12 »
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Hey Itsu,

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-29, 21:32:36
Ok,  i must be getting old as this is the 3rd post today where i must confess that i am confused.


Its not easy to understand! So no, not just you, I have been there! Sometimes I still have to really think what's going on!

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-29, 21:32:36

EMjunkie, please help me out here, in a normal partner coil (bucking coil) configuration, with perfect coils,
the voltage across a load resistor will normally be zero (0),   right?


For AC Output with a Resistive Load, Output should be V*I and Phase Angle should be = 0. It should be pure power.

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-29, 21:32:36

So the reason that my voltage over my 10 Ohm load resistor is low (220mV) is due to imperfect coils and is perfectly normal, right?

And you want me (us) to tune this partner coil (bucking coil) configuration in such a way that instead of the normal minimum voltage
there is maximum voltage, even so that it possible is more then what is being inputted,  right?


Yes, there is something wrong with your Coils/Core. I think either the Coils or the Core are being Choked off.

Please wait till your New Coils come and we will run tests.

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-29, 21:32:36

This tuning is done by varying the distance between the partner coils and/or the distance of the core gap and varying the working frequency
so that the magnetic fields oppose and the E fields add up,  right?

Thanks a lot,   Regards Itsu


Yes, and also connecting the Coils such that the Output Voltage and Current is in Phase, not Cancelling.

Can you separate your Coils or are they on one Former?

 
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:18:07 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Hanon
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #130 on: 2015-01-29, 22:53:35 »
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img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #131 on: 2015-01-29, 23:15:13 »

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I have seen your answers Chris, some answers below, for the rest i will address them tomorrow, thanks

i rewound one of the partner coils, its now the same direction as the other one.
I connected the leads so that again we are in bucking mode and redid the testing.
But still we have minimum voltage (24mV) across the load resistor :-(

So next step will be a variable partner coil setup so that i can vary the distance between them.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NjuRx7Ipfc&feature=youtu.be


Regards Itsu
   
img  Propellanttech
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #132 on: 2015-01-30, 00:04:43 »
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I do have a question......

Does the direction of the drive coil, make a difference in this instance? I would figure it would.

Itsu, have you tried flipping the drive coil only? Just a question.....

I may just be asking for my own knowledge.

James
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #133 on: 2015-01-30, 02:57:31 »
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Chris and others,

Something I'm dying to try, but I haven't a method to implement...

My big 7kW test generator has two separate 120 volt AC windings that can by connected in series for 240 volt AC output.  I have four wires here so I can also parallel these two windings for higher amperage 120 volt AC.  What I'd like to do is find a way to set these two windings up in bucking fashion with a slight (adjustable) phase offset between them and pulse the generator exciter winding to see what kind of response I get out.  If anyone has an idea how I can do this, please scratch out a quick schematic and I'll give it a try.  My outputs are all circuit breaker protected, so I'm not too worried about smoking anything.  I bought this generator specifically for this kind of testing.

Thanks much gang,

M@
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #134 on: 2015-01-30, 03:06:01 »
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@Hanon,

Quote from: Hanon on 2015-01-29, 22:53:35
Maybe you could find this link interesting

http://overunity.com/12794/re-inventing-the-wheel-part1-clemente_figuera-the-infinite-energy-machine/msg434841/#msg434841

Regards



Thanks for the links and Schematic. For the moment I think its really Important we stay on track. Stick to the basic layout I have shown:

[youtube]ZhQgch4L5XY[/youtube]

Don't change it, just concentrate on getting it working.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:18:26 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #135 on: 2015-01-30, 03:11:35 »
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Hey Itsu,

Quote from: Itsu on 2015-01-29, 23:15:13

i rewound one of the partner coils, its now the same direction as the other one.
I connected the leads so that again we are in bucking mode and redid the testing.
But still we have minimum voltage (24mV) across the load resistor :-(


I watched your Video, It is really hard to say what's going on! I wish I was there.

Do you have another Ferrite Core?

What's your Voltage across one of the Coils? Each Partnered Output Coil measured separately?

There is definitely issues there, when its right you should get much more voltage than you have!

Maybe take the core right out?
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:18:44 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #136 on: 2015-01-30, 03:14:13 »
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@Propellanttech,

Quote from: Propellanttech on 2015-01-30, 00:04:43

Does the direction of the drive coil, make a difference in this instance? I would figure it would.


James, excellent question! Personally I have not seen this issue to date. However it could be a problem! Yes please, Itsu, can you also try this also!

Good thinking James!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:19:01 by EMJunkie »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #137 on: 2015-01-30, 03:19:30 »
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Hey Matt,

Quote from: Matt Watts on 2015-01-30, 02:57:31
Something I'm dying to try, but I haven't a method to implement...

My big 7kW test generator has two separate 120 volt AC windings that can by connected in series for 240 volt AC output.  I have four wires here so I can also parallel these two windings for higher amperage 120 volt AC.  What I'd like to do is find a way to set these two windings up in bucking fashion with a slight (adjustable) phase offset between them and pulse the generator exciter winding to see what kind of response I get out.  If anyone has an idea how I can do this, please scratch out a quick schematic and I'll give it a try.  My outputs are all circuit breaker protected, so I'm not too worried about smoking anything.  I bought this generator specifically for this kind of testing.


Yes, this is something that does also work.

A Very bright guy on this forum is doing this right now: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2678

I am not sure if I should say names but many excellent posts here about the same sort of thing, and also along the same lines we are also bring to the front line  ;)
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:19:15 by EMJunkie »
   
img  forest
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #138 on: 2015-01-30, 07:45:48 »
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It's not enough. We also need a simple rule to find the direction of induced current in secondary and of course then apply it back to find the Lenz reaction on primary to confirm that in partnered output coils this influence is symmetricall and opposite so practically cancel. EMJunkie, do you have a simple rule to find it by hand ?
   
img  forest
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #139 on: 2015-01-30, 07:46:58 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-29, 04:10:12
@ALL,

So to clarify, I hope to make a little clearer, I am sorry if it wasn't already, try both configurations. My previous Drawings did have slight errors in them, please check the new ones:

For those that are not familiar with the Right Hand Rule please watch this video: I like it!  :)

[youtube]eK1Ar5WPJj8[/youtube]

or

[youtube]dq-VxZrBLJQ[/youtube]

Just so you know, I have applied the Right Hand Rule slightly different, some will already know this, I use it as follows: Thumb in the Direction of the Magnetic Field, Fingers in the direction of the Charge in the Coil! It works the same way! Vectors are the same. Please see the attached picture for clarification!

Kind Regards

   Chris Sykes - hyiq.org
   To Reach New Horizons!
-------------------------------


I commented this post.Sorry, hit the wrong button
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #140 on: 2015-01-30, 08:05:59 »
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@Forest,

Quote from: forest on 2015-01-30, 07:45:48
It's not enough. We also need a simple rule to find the direction of induced current in secondary and of course then apply it back to find the Lenz reaction on primary to confirm that in partnered output coils this influence is symmetricall and opposite so practically cancel. EMJunkie, do you have a simple rule to find it by hand ?

EMF is Always the negative of the Primary Source!

This is Lenz's Law! EMF = -dPhi/dt

The (-) sign is Lenz's Law.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-02, 02:19:31 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Matt Watts
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #141 on: 2015-01-30, 08:27:15 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-30, 08:05:59
EMF is Always the negative of the Primary Source!

You mean CEMF or BEMF don't you?

My theory on these sort of devices is that we are creating a transformer that in some respects behaves as a magnetic diode.  The simplest way to know if you may have something is to flip the primary and secondary; pump your source into the secondary and see if it acts like a dead short, where nothing comes out of the primary.  If it does this when reversed, but not when you push power through it normally, you're probably on to something.  I will say from some experience, tuning this kind of device takes some thought in regards to magnetic reluctance--seeing in your mind where the flux would prefer to go.  Then you test and see if you are correct.  It's an iterative process with lots of twists and turns that you will learn a lot from by doing.  When you get the current in the secondary to act like the current flowing in the copper pipe in this video, you'll have it licked:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keMpUaoA3Tg

Think about the part in this video where he keeps flipping the pipe while the magnet falls, holding the magnet inside.  That's what you want.  You provide the change in polarity and the magnet does all the work on the load.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 09:08:40 by Matt Watts »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #142 on: 2015-01-30, 09:03:12 »

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Quote from: Propellanttech on 2015-01-30, 00:04:43
I do have a question......

Does the direction of the drive coil, make a difference in this instance? I would figure it would.

Itsu, have you tried flipping the drive coil only? Just a question.....

I may just be asking for my own knowledge.

James


Hi Propellanttech,

with direction you mean CC or CCW, or how the FG is attached?

I am sure i did change the FG attachment as i have attached / removed the clipleads many times now in a random fashion, but no change noticed and as i am using AC i doubt it will be of any influence.
  
Flipping over a coil would not make any difference as CW stays CW, so i have to rewind the input coil which i have not done yet.

Thanks,   regards Itsu
« Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 10:17:24 by Itsu »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #143 on: 2015-01-30, 09:13:19 »

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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-30, 03:11:35
Hey Itsu,

I watched your Video, It is really hard to say what's going on! I wish I was there.

Do you have another Ferrite Core?

I have a smaller core, but i have to wind new coils for that, perhaps during the weekend

Quote
What's your Voltage across one of the Coils? Each Partnered Output Coil measured separately?

That was measured and show in this post:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2760.msg44871#msg44871

Quote
There is definitely issues there, when its right you should get much more voltage than you have!

What about all the other replicators, what are your measurements of the voltage across the load resistor in bucking mode?

Quote
Maybe take the core right out?

Can try that too this weekend

Regards Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #144 on: 2015-01-30, 09:34:12 »

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Sorry,  this reply should go before the other ones


Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-01-29, 22:43:12
Hey Itsu,

Its not easy to understand! So no, not just you, I have been there! Sometimes I still have to really think what's going on!

Quote
EMjunkie, please help me out here, in a normal partner coil (bucking coil) configuration, with perfect coils,
the voltage across a load resistor will normally be zero (0),   right?

For AC Output with a Resistive Load, Output should be V*I and Phase Angle should be = 0. It should be pure power.

But it does like can be seen in my second video, see screenshot of the yellow (voltage across 10 Ohm load) and green (current through the load) traces
below.
But still its only some hundreds of microWatts
Point is (my question), it normally should be 0 in bucking mode, so this looks to me as normal behaviour (without having your special effect),  right?

Quote
Yes, there is something wrong with your Coils/Core. I think either the Coils or the Core are being Choked off.

Please wait till your New Coils come and we will run tests.

New (crossover) coils will hopefully arrive today, so stay tuned   :)

Quote
Yes, and also connecting the Coils such that the Output Voltage and Current is in Phase, not Cancelling.

See answer one


Quote
Can you separate your Coils or are they on one Former?

They are on 1 former, new coils should be able to do so

Regards Itsu
   
img  Jeg
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #145 on: 2015-01-30, 09:57:55 »
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@ all

As i told you in a previous post i had made an arrangement with two cw ccw bucking coils and a diode in between them and a feedback coil like in Meyer and Jensen setup. This setup was able to charge in an instant a capacitor at about 1.4KV. But, Inter-turn arcing made me rewind my secondaries with some tape insulation between layers. In my new bucking coils i used 0.6mm magnet wire at 234 turns while in my previous setup i had used a 0.8mm wire at 200T.

What is your guess guys about my new output voltage from secondaries? Has it be at a higher or at lower voltage levels? What it has to be expected? Long story short, what i faced was a lower voltage at a level of 200V!!! Seems to me that thicker wire produces higher voltage even with less turns! What is your explanation on this?

In a quick try to explain this preliminary result, seems to me that the less ohmic resistance at the bucking coils setup, allows more current to flow inside them, building this way quicker an opposed magnetic field to the primary source, and producing this way higher E-fields after the summation of which give a higher voltage at the output. Keep in mind that my primary source are short in time pulses from a mosfet.

Itsu, if you like try also to wind your secondaries with thicker wire to see if you have a different result. Also try one gap in your C cores and not two!! It seems that works better if Magnetic flux is delayed from one side only and not symmetrical in relation with your output bucking coils.  

Ps. Later added

Sorry for my mistake guys. I was overhappy at the time and I spoke without first confirming my results. There was a new inter turn arcing which affected the result and so my conclusions. So the more the turns the more the voltage as always was and always will be!


« Last Edit: 2015-01-31, 16:30:26 by Jeg »
   
img  TinMan
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #146 on: 2015-01-30, 14:00:13 »

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Buy me some coffee
Quote post 23-->Do you have any coils presently built up that exhibit COP >1?
Answer EMJ post 26-->Yes, I am not yet prepared to show my current results as it will confuse and shadow the existing configuration and no one will learn the basics first.

 ???
Are we any closer to seeing this COP> EMJ?
You believe those here do not know the basics of inductor operations?
Do you know how many times we have been lead up the garden path with this cry-->OU
Do you know how much combined time(and cash) has been wasted by members here,only to have the claimant disappear when it came time to show the good's?.

One would think if you had an OU device,you would be happy to share and show it-->just so as you could put the guru's in there place.


I believe I'm looking at another such thread ^-^


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   
img  Smudge
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #147 on: 2015-01-30, 15:21:53 »

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Quote from: forest on 2015-01-30, 07:45:48
It's not enough. We also need a simple rule to find the direction of induced current in secondary and of course then apply it back to find the Lenz reaction on primary to confirm that in partnered output coils this influence is symmetricall and opposite so practically cancel. EMJunkie, do you have a simple rule to find it by hand ?

I have a different view about this thing.  I have shown that a pair of coils in series bucking mode will exhibit an induced negative resistance (i.e. a source of energy) if there is a magnetic propagation delay across the gap between the coils.  And for coils wound on cores there will be a delay because the velocity of propagation in the core is significantly lower than light velocity.  So the core itself is the key component that somehow supplies this power.  If you use air cores separated by an air gap there is no anomaly.

The anomalous power will show up if you simply connect a generator to the coils and include a load resistor.  The power into that resistor will be greater than it should be because of the energy supplied by that magnetic arrangement.  However because the induced negative resistor is likely swamped by the coil losses it is difficult to get a handle on what the power would be without that anomalous source.  If it were possible to have coil resistance lower than the induced negative value we would have self-oscillation. :).  So it is not necessary to think about transformers.

IMO EMJ's transformer is just a method of inducing current into that coil arrangement.  The direction of induced current in the secondary is what you would get for a normal transformer.  And that creates flux that causes the primary to draw load current so that the two currents (pri and sec) almost cancel with regard to flux generation.  I say almost because there remains in the primary the small magnetizing current at 90 degrees to the load current and that supplies the working flux needed for the transformer action.  There will also be a current associated with flux leakage, i.e. flux created in the primary that does not get to the secondary.  Because the special magnetic arrangement of the secondary is supplying some power, the in-phase load current in the primary is smaller than it would be otherwise, but there is nothing special about its direction.

EMJ talks about the primary and secondary current providing complete cancellation, but that is wrong, it is only the in-phase currents that do that.  In any transformer there is always a small magnetizing current in the primary at 90 degrees to the load current.  This is not a criticism of EMJ, he has spent years experimenting and discovered something special about bucking coils and is doing his best at explaining what it is.  Had he not started this thread I would not have looked into the theory to discover where the anomaly exists.  What I did could have been done by anyone over the last 100 years or so but no one took the simple step of applying a magnetic delay to the coupling factor in the classical formula for coupled coils.  Had they done so science would have progressed beyond where we are now.

Smudge
   
img  TinMan
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #148 on: 2015-01-30, 15:48:13 »

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Buy me some coffee
Quote smudge-What I did could have been done by anyone over the last 100 years or so but no one took the simple step of applying a magnetic delay to the coupling factor in the classical formula for coupled coils.

Maybe a delay line like the below?.


---------------------------
Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   
img  Smudge
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #149 on: 2015-01-30, 16:00:49 »

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Quote from: TinMan on 2015-01-30, 14:00:13
Quote post 23-->Do you have any coils presently built up that exhibit COP >1?
Answer EMJ post 26-->Yes, I am not yet prepared to show my current results as it will confuse and shadow the existing configuration and no one will learn the basics first.

 ???
Are we any closer to seeing this COP> EMJ?
You believe those here do not know the basics of inductor operations?
Do you know how many times we have been lead up the garden path with this cry-->OU
Do you know how much combined time(and cash) has been wasted by members here,only to have the claimant disappear when it came time to show the good's?.

One would think if you had an OU device,you would be happy to share and show it-->just so as you could put the guru's in there place.

I believe I'm looking at another such thread ^-^

I believe that EMJ has lots of evidence that there is something special about bucking coils and he is absolutely correct there.  I also believe that he has evidence that such coils yield anomalous energy.  I suspect that any measurements he may have showing absolute OU (more out than in) may not have been done correctly, but that doesn't concern me.  His years of experimenting has opened up a legitimate avenue of exploration that must be followed since it offers a route to OU.

My argument is this.  For years it has been accepted fact that magnetic propagation delay, velocity, viscosity, call it what you will, is a cause of loss.  This loss is assumed to go to heat the core.  However as far as I know there has never been any calorific measurements to validate that assumption.  Certainly you can see how that velocity changes the BH loop to create anticlockwise behaviour which represents loss.  And you can think of domain wall movement or domain rotation being slowed by friction, but that is just a concept.  There is no real evidence for where the lost energy goes, and it is quite possible that it dissipates into the virtual particles of space, it disappears into the quantum world.

What is now apparent is the fact that in certain magnetic arrangements the presence of magnetic delay creates energy, not loses energy.  Bucking coils is but one arrangement.  A capacitively loaded transformer is another.  And there could be more.  So it is possible that this energy is transduced in from the virtual particles of space, from the quantum world.  I think that possibility should be actively explored, don't you?  I am grateful to EMJ for revealing this possibility.

Smudge
   
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